Who will retire first---Roger or Rafa?

[El Dude]

AntiPusher, don't you think Carol has something to do with that? It takes two to tango. She gets "attacked" because just about everything she says about Fed is negative.

Not that anyone should be "attacked" - we should be able to disagree like adults.

I can't speak for Carol but I think she is fair.. I haven't seen her accuse Roger of being on PEDS, taking excessive time for serving, bio breaks or etc.. I think Carol is fair with her criticism of Roger.

Well, most of us--to some degree or another--feed the Fedal Wars. The two people that stand out in my mind who do that more than other, are Front with his obsessive hatred of Rafa and dear, sweet, blameless Carol . When was the last time you saw Carol say something positive or appreciative about Federer?

I personally don't get the hate some have for certain players. It just seems like a waste of energy.

 

[Carol]

AntiPusher, don't you think Carol has something to do with that? It takes two to tango. She gets "attacked" because just about everything she says about Fed is negative.

Not that anyone should be "attacked" - we should be able to disagree like adults.

I can't speak for Carol but I think she is fair.. I haven't seen her accuse Roger of being on PEDS, taking excessive time for serving, bio breaks or etc.. I think Carol is fair with her criticism of Roger.

Well, most of us--to some degree or another--feed the Fedal Wars. The two people that stand out in my mind who do that more than other, are Front with his obsessive hatred of Rafa and dear, sweet, blameless Carol . When was the last time you saw Carol say something positive or appreciative about Federer
I personally don't get the hate some have for certain players. It just seems like a waste of energy.

Thanks for those kind of compliments but I have to say that I don't hate Roger because I don't have any reason to hate him, as simple as that. But some of his fans is another story......now I ask you when you, Front, Fiero, lacatch and GSAM have said something positive or appreciative about Nadal? remind me something because right now I don't remember anything
Would you like that I say that Roger is the greatest? nope, the nicer? nope, mr. perfect? nope, but I don't think that you have read from me insulting him or saying continues stupid things like some posters are saying about Nadal so I don't understand well your comment which I think is very unfair

 

[lacatch]

Carol--you just said earlier that Roger is finished. That's just ignorant based on everything that he has said in terms of coming back stronger next year. You bring the reaction on yourself by saying such things. You also denigrate Novak's accomplishments by saying/implying that he is winning because he has no strong competition, as opposed to he's just been better than the field for years. Again, those kind of statements are inflammatory and insulting to his fans. You are welcome to support your hombre Rafa, of course. But it's hardly necessary to knock everyone else in the process. If you focussed on just positive statements about Rafa, I'm guessing you'd have a lot less pushback from other members of the board.

 

[Carol]

Carol--you just said earlier that Roger is finished. That's just ignorant based on everything that he has said in terms of coming back stronger next year. You bring the reaction on yourself by saying such things. You also denigrate Novak's accomplishments by saying/implying that he is winning because he has no strong competition, as opposed to he's just been better than the field for years. Again, those kind of statements are inflammatory and insulting to his fans. You are welcome to support your hombre Rafa, of course. But it's hardly necessary to knock everyone else in the process. If you focussed on just positive statements about Rafa, I'm guessing you'd have a lot less pushback from other members of the board.

And don't you think it's an insult and provocation to the Rafa's fans asking who's is going to retire first when they are 5 years apart? don't you know that your hombre is going to be one year not playing (I think he has played three matches after his knee injury) and he is 35 years old ? don't you think that after one year and even IF his knee would be in perfect condition it will be a tough time to him playing MS and GS? agreed he is not Stepanek who never has won a big title so I don't think he would be very happy losing matches one by one and sincerely I'd be very surprise if he would win one MS or one GS. They can do that when they are younger but at 35 it's be very difficult and after June he will be 36........
And about Novak, yes, I said and I repeat, he has playing superb 2011 and 2015 but this last year with a lot of help of the poor game of his opponents. If this an insult to you then you are too sensitive and of course you have a lack of knowledge about the sport

 

[lacatch]

Carol--you just said earlier that Roger is finished. That's just ignorant based on everything that he has said in terms of coming back stronger next year. You bring the reaction on yourself by saying such things. You also denigrate Novak's accomplishments by saying/implying that he is winning because he has no strong competition, as opposed to he's just been better than the field for years. Again, those kind of statements are inflammatory and insulting to his fans. You are welcome to support your hombre Rafa, of course. But it's hardly necessary to knock everyone else in the process. If you focussed on just positive statements about Rafa, I'm guessing you'd have a lot less pushback from other members of the board.

And don't you think it's an insult and provocation to the Rafa's fans asking who's is going to retire first when they are 5 years apart? don't you know that your hombre is going to be one year not playing (I think he has played three matches after his knee injury) and he is 35 years old ? don't you think that after one year and even IF his knee would be in perfect condition it will be a tough time to him playing MS and GS? agreed he is not Stepanek who never has won a big title so I don't think he would be very happy losing matches one by one and sincerely I'd be very surprise if he would win one MS or one GS. They can do that when they are younger but at 35 it's be very difficult and after June he will be 36........
And about Novak, yes, I said and I repeat, he has playing superb 2011 and 2015 but this last year with a lot of help of the poor game of his opponents. If this an insult to you then you are too sensitive and of course you have a lack of knowledge about the sport

No I don't think it's an insult to Roger or Rafa fans to ask who will retire first. While Roger is older, he has had far, far fewer physical problems than Rafa, who has missed large portions of time due to injury. I have no idea how competitive Roger (or Rafa) will be next year--no one does. Therefore it's inappropriate for you to say Roger is through (or Rafa for that matter).Again---please focus on the positive. If you think Rafa will win several slams next year---great. But no need to say Roger is finished with his career, or Novak wins due to lack of competition. There were THREE different slam winners in '16--you call that lack of a competitive field?

 

[El Dude]

Carol, I've said many positive things about Rafa. I've appreciated him for his greatness, as I'm sure more measured Rafa fans can attest to.

 

[Front242]

I've commented many times during finals in live chats "great forehand by Nadal" or great point, great shot, etc but I still think he's a complete pr1ck

 

[Carol]

Carol--you just said earlier that Roger is finished. That's just ignorant based on everything that he has said in terms of coming back stronger next year. You bring the reaction on yourself by saying such things. You also denigrate Novak's accomplishments by saying/implying that he is winning because he has no strong competition, as opposed to he's just been better than the field for years. Again, those kind of statements are inflammatory and insulting to his fans. You are welcome to support your hombre Rafa, of course. But it's hardly necessary to knock everyone else in the process. If you focussed on just positive statements about Rafa, I'm guessing you'd have a lot less pushback from other members of the board.

And don't you think it's an insult and provocation to the Rafa's fans asking who's is going to retire first when they are 5 years apart? don't you know that your hombre is going to be one year not playing (I think he has played three matches after his knee injury) and he is 35 years old ? don't you think that after one year and even IF his knee would be in perfect condition it will be a tough time to him playing MS and GS? agreed he is not Stepanek who never has won a big title so I don't think he would be very
happy losing matches one by one and sincerely I'd be very surprise if he would win one MS or one GS. They can do that when they are younger but at 35 it's be very difficult and after June he will be 36........
And about Novak, yes, I said and I repeat, he has playing superb 2011 and 2015 but this last year with a lot of help of the poor game of his opponents. If this an insult to you then you are too sensitive and of course you have a lack of knowledge about the sport

No I don't think it's an insult to Roger or Rafa fans to ask who will retire first. While Roger is older, he has had far, far fewer physical problems than Rafa, who has missed large portions of time due to injury. I have no idea how competitive Roger (or Rafa) will be next year--no one does. Therefore it's
inappropriate for you to say Roger is through (or Rafa for that matter).Again---please focus on the positive. If you think Rafa will win several slams next year---great. But no need to say Roger is finished with his career, or Novak wins due to lack of competition. There were THREE different slam winners in '16--you call that lack of a competitive field?

It's not a matter of positivism, t's a matter of realism

 

[lacatch]

And don't you think it's an insult and provocation to the Rafa's fans asking who's is going to retire first when they are 5 years apart? don't you know that your hombre is going to be one year not playing (I think he has played three matches after his knee injury) and he is 35 years old ? don't you think that after one year and even IF his knee would be in perfect condition it will be a tough time to him playing MS and GS? agreed he is not Stepanek who never has won a big title so I don't think he would be very
happy losing matches one by one and sincerely I'd be very surprise if he would win one MS or one GS. They can do that when they are younger but at 35 it's be very difficult and after June he will be 36........
And about Novak, yes, I said and I repeat, he has playing superb 2011 and 2015 but this last year with a lot of help of the poor game of his opponents. If this an insult to you then you are too sensitive and of course you have a lack of knowledge about the sport

No I don't think it's an insult to Roger or Rafa fans to ask who will retire first. While Roger is older, he has had far, far fewer physical problems than Rafa, who has missed large portions of time due to injury. I have no idea how competitive Roger (or Rafa) will be next year--no one does. Therefore it's
inappropriate for you to say Roger is through (or Rafa for that matter).Again---please focus on the positive. If you think Rafa will win several slams next year---great. But no need to say Roger is finished with his career, or Novak wins due to lack of competition. There were THREE different slam winners in '16--you call that lack of a competitive field?

It's not a matter of positivism, t's a matter of realism

LOLOL

 

[El Dude]

I do agree that the comeback trail is steep for Roger, being laid off for so long and 35 years old. But if anyone can do it, he can.

I also think he is now in a similar place as Rafa, who is not a young 30-year old and has his own chronic injuries to deal with. So it isn't insulting Rafa to question whether or not he out-lasts Roger, unless you think chronological age is everything. It is being, um, realistic--something certain fans are incapable of being with their favorite player.

 

[the AntiPusher]

I do degree that the comeback trail is steep for Roger, being laid off for so long and 35 years old. But if anyone can do it, he can.

I also think he is now in a similar place as Rafa who is not a young 30-year old and has his own chronic injuries to deal with. So it isn't insulting Rafa to question whether or not he out-lasts Roger. It is being, um, realistic--something certain fans are incapable of being with their favorite player.

With Roger it really depends if he still can perform at the extraordinary high level he does at the Masters and 500 series tournaments. Unlike Rafa, Roger's game is smart and efficient. Roger doesn't engage in those long rallies waiting for an ufes like Rafa. Roger still dictates with his serve and forehand as well as his brilliant ability to break down lower ranked players. However, I do feel Roger's chances of winning a slam are declining especially if Novak stays at the top. Roger had no business loosing to Milos at Wimbledon regardless of the condition of his knee. IMO

 

[El Dude]

I hear you, but Roger is hardly the only great player to lose to a lesser player, and it isn't like his loss to Milos was anything new from what we've seen over the last couple years. I'm not more worried about him losing to Milos in Wimbledon this year than I am him losing to Andreas Seppi in the third round of the 2015 AO, or Cilic or Gulbis in 2014. That is just Roger in this late phase of his career.

The question is whether or not he can return to his 2014-16 form next year. If he can, then he returns to being one of a small handful of players who can win a Slam if Novak is off his game or upset by some surging player.

We're never going back to 2006 or even 2012, but he was still better than almost everyone else in 2014-15, and for parts of 2016. A lot of the disappointment with Roger and his losses to players like Milos are because people still expect (or hope) he's the same player he was even back in 2012. He isn't. And this is a shift in awareness that some Rafa fans (I won't mention any names) seem unable to make, holding out hope that some little tweak in his mentality or game will lead to another 2013. It ain't gonna happen.

Actually, here is the best case scenarios I can see for Rafa and Roger:

*Roger returns to 2014-15 form for another year or two, and paces himself just right so he plays the best he can (now) play at the right place and time and wins one more Slam, then maybe does a victory lap or two and wins a few more minor tournaments.

*Rafa has one more big surge during clay season, wins a few more clay titles and culminates with a 10th and final Roland Garros title then, before suffering another round of injury and set-backs, retires on top.

That's about it--maybe one more Slam each, if the stars align. But I think it rather unlikely that either wins one. Rafa probably has a slightly better chance, if only because of Roland Garros.

 

[the AntiPusher]

I hear you, but Roger is hardly the only great player to lose to a lesser player, and it isn't like his loss to Milos was anything new from what we've seen over the last couple years. I'm not more worried about him losing to Milos in Wimbledon this year than I am him losing to Andreas Seppi in the third round of the 2015 AO, or Cilic or Gulbis in 2014. That is just Roger in this late phase of his career.

The question is whether or not he can return to his 2014-16 form next year. If he can, then he returns to being one of a small handful of players who can win a Slam if Novak is off his game or upset by some surging player.

We're never going back to 2006 or even 2012, but he was still better than almost everyone else in 2014-15, and for parts of 2016. A lot of the disappointment with Roger and his losses to players like Milos are because people still expect (or hope) he's the same player he was even back in 2012. He isn't. And this is a shift in awareness that some Rafa fans (I won't mention any names) seem unable to make, holding out hope that some little tweak in his mentality or game will lead to another 2013. It ain't gonna happen.

Actually, here is the best case scenarios I can see for Rafa and Roger:

*Roger returns to 2014-15 form for another year or two, and paces himself just right so he plays the best he can (now) play at the right place and time and wins one more Slam, then maybe does a victory lap or two and wins a few more minor tournaments.

*Rafa has one more big surge during clay season, wins a few more clay titles and culminates with a 10th and final Roland Garros title then, before suffering another round of injury and set-backs, retires on top.

That's about it--maybe one more Slam each, if the stars align. But I think it rather unlikely that either wins one. Rafa probably has a slightly better chance, if only because of Roland Garros.

Man, its so tough being a Nadal fan.. Unlike Apple, Microsoft, Federer, Djoker or Murray.. nothing EVER changes with Rafa..uggghhh:nono

 

[Carol]

Rafa says that he feels very good with his preparation for the next tournaments Beijing and Shanghai.
If he has improved his serve it would be enough to make a good end of the season even better than last year

 

[Carol]

I do degree that the comeback trail is steep for Roger, being laid off for so long and 35 years old. But if anyone can do it, he can.

I also think he is now in a similar place as Rafa who is not a young 30-year old and has his own chronic injuries to deal with. So it isn't insulting Rafa to question whether or not he out-lasts Roger. It is being, um, realistic--something certain fans are incapable of being with their favorite player.

With Roger it really depends if he still can perform at the extraordinary high level he does at the Masters and 500 series tournaments. Unlike Rafa, Roger's game is smart and efficient. Roger doesn't engage in those long rallies waiting for an ufes like Rafa. Roger still dictates with his serve and forehand as well as his brilliant ability to break down lower ranked players. However, I do feel Roger's chances of winning a slam are declining especially if Novak stays at the top. Roger had no business loosing to Milos at Wimbledon regardless of the condition of his knee. IMO

I suppose that you were kidding about that, isn't? lot

 

[El Dude]

Man, its so tough being a Nadal fan.. Unlike Apple, Microsoft, Federer, Djoker or Murray.. nothing EVER changes with Rafa..uggghhh:nono

I'm assuming you are being sarcastic? Let's look at the facts:

1. Rafa hasn't reached a Slam final in two and a half years, going back to FO 2014.
2. Rafa hasn't reached a Slam QF in a year and a half, going back to FO 2015.
3. Rafa is 30 years old, but with tons of mileage on his injury-prone body.

My question is, if I'm being pessimistic in saying that Rafa might have one more clay season surge, and rise to a Slam title in him, what exactly do you expect from him? Do you expect for him to re-capture his 2008-2013 peak form? He hasn't been that player for almost three years!

It is one thing to surge and comeback at 27, like he did in 2013, quite another to do so at 30-31, which he'll be next year. Again, I'm not saying that he can't win another Slam, I just don't see a return to peak form, at least not consistently. We would have seen that already.

Now who knows, maybe surges and wins the AO and then, going into clay season, we're thinking "Rafa's back!" But the record of the last three years makes that seem rather unlikely.

 

[Carol]

2013 was a good year for Rafa. He started 2014 pretty well, I remember playing so well in the AO, reaching the final and then that unfortunately back injury and then the mental hecatombe which is worse to recovery than any injury and losing even on his best surface and against anyone but at least he won one more RG. 2015 a wrist injury and again in a roller coaster without to find his game, horrible.
And then 2016, not too bad and looking well on clay until the wrist injury came back and he had a very bad decision playing in Roma and Madrid and then he had to retire after the second round in RG.
Back to the court after almost two months playing pretty well and focused for to win the doubles in Rio which was his priority (he had already the GM in singles) and he got it in spite that he had to play too many hours having been two months out of court before. The USO would have been better for him if his serve would have been better, unfortunaly was bad, pretty bad and even that he wa close to win.
Now he has not excuse, he looks healthy and motived and I HOPE to see him with a better serve which is gold in HC and more Indoor

 

[the AntiPusher]

Man, its so tough being a Nadal fan.. Unlike Apple, Microsoft, Federer, Djoker or Murray.. nothing EVER changes with Rafa..uggghhh:nono

I'm assuming you are being sarcastic? Let's look at the facts:

1. Rafa hasn't reached a Slam final in two and a half years, going back to FO 2014.
2. Rafa hasn't reached a Slam QF in a year and a half, going back to FO 2015.
3. Rafa is 30 years old, but with tons of mileage on his injury-prone body.

My question is, if I'm being pessimistic in saying that Rafa might have one more clay season surge, and rise to a Slam title in him, what exactly do you expect from him? Do you expect for him to re-capture his 2008-2013 peak form? He hasn't been that player for almost three years!

It is one thing to surge and comeback at 27, like he did in 2013, quite another to do so at 30-31, which he'll be next year. Again, I'm not saying that he can't win another Slam, I just don't see a return to peak form, at least not consistently. We would have seen that already.

Now who knows, maybe surges and wins the AO and then, going into clay season, we're thinking "Rafa's back!" But the record of the last three years makes that seem rather unlikely.

NAh, you missing my meaning .. I am saying that EVERYBODY changes something about their product or their game(new coaching consultant, equipment or add a new wrinkle) but Rafa Nadal.

 

[the AntiPusher]

2013 was a good year for Rafa. He started 2014 pretty well, I remember playing so well in the AO, reaching the final and then that unfortunately back injury and then the mental hecatombe which is worse to recovery than any injury and losing even on his best surface and against anyone but at least he won one more RG. 2015 a wrist injury and again in a roller coaster without to find his game, horrible.
And then 2016, not too bad and looking well on clay until the wrist injury came back and he had a very bad decision playing in Roma and Madrid and then he had to retire after the second round in RG.
Back to the court after almost two months playing pretty well and focused for to win the doubles in Rio which was his priority (he had already the GM in singles) and he got it in spite that he had to play too many hours having been two months out of court before. The USO would have been better for him if his serve would have been better, unfortunaly was bad, pretty bad and even that he wa close to win.
Now he has not excuse, he looks healthy and motived and I HOPE to see him with a better serve which is gold in HC and more Indoor

Rafa lost the match to Pouille because he got outplayed by someone he just destroyed in practice a few days earlier. Also, Toni and team was totally out coached by some unknowns, well to me they are. If that was any other top 10 player that lost that match, wouldn't you feel a coaching change would have been immediate.

 

[Front242]

Is destroying someone in practice some new trendy claim to fame? It's called practice for a reason, it's not the real deal. Means zero, zilch, nada. Think guys try as hard in practice? Of course not.