Who had a BETTER career Sir Andy or Stan da freakin Man

[Moxie]

Are you asking me to be a surrogate for Darth or Front? I don't know if I have it in me, to be honest.

Not at all! I just put it out there, once again to remind folks that they had selective PED-ar. If one were to question anyone, Stan has everything that a sports medicine professional would tell you were red flags. Late-career spike in results, in a short window. Yet those around here with a major doping fetish saw nothing. Just makes me laugh.

 

[Moxie]

Anyway...I got this thread to 2 pages.

 

[Front242]

I know how to extend this thread beyond one page. Everyone says that Stan has had "such a weird, unique arc." Or that he is/was an "outlier." Late-career peak, for a short amount of time. In sports, there is a suspicion that falls on this. There have been folks around here who have loved throwing juicing shade, but never on Wawrinka. Why not? Because it's not interesting enough. I'm not saying that Stan's late surge was due to anything untoward, I'm just kind of laughing at the naïveté and double-standards. I know Darth is gone, but where was @Front242 ever on this? I know no one on this thread is a doping-hound, but this is sports. Late-career surges come under scrutiny.

Personally, I think Stan had a lot of tools, and he needed a good coach, which he got in Magnus Norman. Likewise, Marat Safin had Peter Lundgren to quiet his head just long enough to win the AO in 2005. It just surprises me that everyone just shrugs their shoulders in amazement at how unique and strange Stan's career has been, without question. Especially you, Dude. You see the numbers. And, you're a baseball guy.

There. That should give us another page.

Stan's game was always there. I don't see why there's anything suspicious about him suddenly actually winning stuff he always capable of more than any of the other top players? Fair play to him I say. For the record though, there is this one suspicion that I've already mentioned here that no one followed up on and it's a quite alarming one too and one I hadn't known about before doing some digging, but all 3 of Djokovic, Wawrinka and now Alcaraz have worked with and in Alcaraz' case he is currently working with this scumbag as his physio. I'm actually shocked and it should most definitely be discussed by the mainstream media but they're turning a blind eye. Never getting tired and having Lance Armstrong's doctor on your team is a massive red flag. I like Alcaraz' game very much but this is NOT a good look/link in your camp...

https://toptrendnow.com/carlos-alcaraz-the-rising-star-of-spanish-tennis/

 

[Front242]

Of course Murray has had the better overall career but Wawrinka's peak level is far higher than anything Murray ever played like and much more entertaining to watch.

 

[tented]

Of course Murray has had the better overall career but Wawrinka's peak level is far higher than anything Murray ever played like and much more entertaining to watch.

This sums it up perfectly. One of the best matches of the last decade was the Stan/Novak RG final. At that point, Wawrinka was playing at such a high level, he would have beat anybody. He played great to win the US Open and AO as well. He played that barn burner in London against Roger (2011?)

Andy Murray, on the other hand … well, considering how omnipresent he was for so many years, there are few matches I would want to watch again, including the Wimbledon final (except that marathon final game). But Murray wasn’t entertaining, as you say.

 

[Front242]

This sums it up perfectly. One of the best matches of the last decade was the Stan/Novak RG final. At that point, Wawrinka was playing at such a high level, he would have beat anybody. He played great to win the US Open and AO as well. He played that barn burner in London against Roger (2011?)

Andy Murray, on the other hand … well, considering how omnipresent he was for so many years, there are few matches I would want to watch again, including the Wimbledon final (except that marathon final game). But Murray wasn’t entertaining, as you say.

That around the net point in the RG 2015 final was crazy. Stan's level was insane in that match.

 

[Moxie]

Stan's game was always there. I don't see why there's anything suspicious about him suddenly actually winning stuff he always capable of more than any of the other top players? Fair play to him I say. For the record though, there is this one suspicion that I've already mentioned here that no one followed up on and it's a quite alarming one too and one I hadn't known about before doing some digging, but all 3 of Djokovic, Wawrinka and now Alcaraz have worked with and in Alcaraz' case he is currently working with this scumbag as his physio. I'm actually shocked and it should most definitely be discussed by the mainstream media but they're turning a blind eye. Never getting tired and having Lance Armstrong's doctor on your team is a massive red flag. I like Alcaraz' game very much but this is NOT a good look/link in your camp...

https://toptrendnow.com/carlos-alcaraz-the-rising-star-of-spanish-tennis/

So, just to be clear: you say that Stan's game was always there, and then you also say you think he was working with a dodgy doctor? Which is it? I will be looking into your claims.

Also to be clear: Stan's game was for a long time in his career rather middling, or close to interesting, but no big results. Until later in his career. All of his best results fall in a specific sliver of his career.

Stan Wawrinka career statistics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I've always said your "pretend" interest in doping in tennis was myopic. Just another example.

 

[Front242]

So, just to be clear: you say that Stan's game was always there, and then you also say you think he was working with a dodgy doctor? Which is it? I will be looking into your claims.

Also to be clear: Stan's game was for a long time in his career rather middling, or close to interesting, but no big results. Until later in his career. All of his best results fall in a specific sliver of his career.

Stan Wawrinka career statistics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I've always said your "pretend" interest in doping in tennis was myopic. Just another example.

They're not my claims as I posted a link and it's not my website and I've no idea how you came to the conclusion my interest in doping was "pretend" either..

The site says the same disgraced doctor worked with Djokovic also and is Alcaraz' physio.

Btw Ferrer the little ferret had his best results late also and was linked to the same scumbag which he denied naturally.

 

[Moxie]

They're not my claims as I posted a link and it's not my website and I've no idea how you came to the conclusion my interest in doping was "pretend" either..

The site says the same disgraced doctor worked with Djokovic also and is Alcaraz' physio.

Btw Ferrer the little ferret had his best results late also and was linked to the same scumbag which he denied naturally.

I say your interest is pretend because you select when you care. BTW, you didn't answer the question: is Stan dodgy or not?

 

[Front242]

I say your interest is pretend because you select when you care. BTW, you didn't answer the question: is Stan dodgy or not?

That's complete bs. Im delighted Mikael Ymer is gone. There are tons of players doping and anyone who isn't naive knows this. They expose the nobodies and let the top players get away with it but the whereabouts rules is what got him and Brooksby caught. They're not as good at it as the top guys. How the hell am I supposed to know if Wawrinka is dodgy and what sort of question is that? Is Nadal dodgy? Is Djokovic dodgy? What part of I like Alcaraz (besides the awful grunting) is so hard to comprehend? What's pretend? I like his game but he could well be dodgy asf if this source is correct. Never gets tired and if he does indeed work with Lance Armstrong's doctor then that's not good at all.

 

[Moxie]

That's complete bs. Im delighted Mikael Ymer is gone. There are tons of players doping and anyone who isn't naive knows this. They expose the nobodies and let the top players get away with it but the whereabouts rules is what got him and Brooksby caught. They're not as good at it as the top guys. How the hell am I supposed to know if Wawrinka is dodgy and what sort of question is that? Is Nadal dodgy? Is Djokovic dodgy? What part of I like Alcaraz (besides the awful grunting) is so hard to comprehend? What's pretend? I like his game but he could well be dodgy asf if this source is correct. Never gets tired and if he does indeed work with Lance Armstrong's doctor then that's not good at all.

You said Wawrinka's game was "always there," in his defense, and then you said he worked with a dodgy doctor, so my question was: which is it? Don't give me "how am I supposed to know?" You've spent years on these forums building a case against Nadal, even though it always turned out to be built on smoke and mirrors and nothing. But you hammered away at it, anyway. You didn't even care about Novak's magic egg until he started to threaten Roger's legacy, and not just be his wing-man at beating Nadal. You've been hair on fire about PED's for convenience's sake, and turned a blind eye when it didn't suit you.

But at least you finally cop to "how am I supposed to know?" Obviously, you don't. I just wanted to hear you say it.

 

[Federberg]

Stan's game was always there. I don't see why there's anything suspicious about him suddenly actually winning stuff he always capable of more than any of the other top players? Fair play to him I say. For the record though, there is this one suspicion that I've already mentioned here that no one followed up on and it's a quite alarming one too and one I hadn't known about before doing some digging, but all 3 of Djokovic, Wawrinka and now Alcaraz have worked with and in Alcaraz' case he is currently working with this scumbag as his physio. I'm actually shocked and it should most definitely be discussed by the mainstream media but they're turning a blind eye. Never getting tired and having Lance Armstrong's doctor on your team is a massive red flag. I like Alcaraz' game very much but this is NOT a good look/link in your camp...

https://toptrendnow.com/carlos-alcaraz-the-rising-star-of-spanish-tennis/

Regarding the jump in Stan's game. I watched an interesting discussion between Roddick and Courier on that very subject. Roddick made the point that Magnus Norman made one change that was huge for him. In the past Wawrinka tended to take big cuts on service returns and he was extremely hit and miss. He changed that under Norman and started blocking a lot more. Stan was always able to hold his own from the back of the court (apart from against Roger on anything but clay), he just needed to get into the points consistently. That makes a lot of sense to me

 

[Moxie]

Regarding the jump in Stan's game. I watched an interesting discussion between Roddick and Courier on that very subject. Roddick made the point that Magnus Norman made one change that was huge for him. In the past Wawrinka tended to take big cuts on service returns and he was extremely hit and miss. He changed that under Norman and started blocking a lot more. Stan was always able to hold his own from the back of the court (apart from against Roger on anything but clay), he just needed to get into the points consistently. That makes a lot of sense to me

That's an interesting note. Personally, I do think Magnus Norman was key for him. As I mentioned, Peter Lundgren managed to quiet Marat Safin's head long enough to get him one more Major, and I do believe that the only difference was Lundgren. A small quibble with your point about Stan having always been able to "hold his own from the back of the court (apart from Roger on anything but clay.)" He had a miserable record against Nadal, too. He hadn't taken a set before that AO final, and then only beat Rafa 2 more times, both in 2015, which was far from Rafa's best year. The one of the big 3 that he really hurt was Novak, in some key moments.

You know I'm just holding Front's feet to the fire for his inconsistencies as to his doping paranoia over the years. It was definitely selective. (Our dear departed Darth was the same.) He never let logic get in the way of accusations when it suited the agenda, but didn't even raise a red flag, when it didn't. Forgive me for trying to rectify an old point of (much) contention. You've been around long enough to know what Nadal fans put up with, and you yourself said it didn't make sense in terms of any career spike.

 

[Federberg]

That's an interesting note. Personally, I do think Magnus Norman was key for him. As I mentioned, Peter Lundgren managed to quiet Marat Safin's head long enough to get him one more Major, and I do believe that the only difference was Lundgren. A small quibble with your point about Stan having always been able to "hold his own from the back of the court (apart from Roger on anything but clay.)" He had a miserable record against Nadal, too. He hadn't taken a set before that AO final, and then only beat Rafa 2 more times, both in 2015, which was far from Rafa's best year. The one of the big 3 that he really hurt was Novak, in some key moments.

You know I'm just holding Front's feet to the fire for his inconsistencies as to his doping paranoia over the years. It was definitely selective. (Our dear departed Darth was the same.) He never let logic get in the way of accusations when it suited the agenda, but didn't even raise a red flag, when it didn't. Forgive me for trying to rectify an old point of (much) contention. You've been around long enough to know what Nadal fans put up with, and you yourself said it didn't make sense in terms of any career spike.

Dear departed Darth? He's ok isn't he??

 

[Moxie]

Dear departed Darth? He's ok isn't he??

Oh, sorry! I meant departed from TF, which we have discussed. He said if Rafa ever even tied Roger in Majors count, he was done with tennis, and he seems to have meant that.

 

[tented]

Dear departed Darth? He's ok isn't he??

Oh, sorry! I meant departed from TF, which we have discussed. He said if Rafa ever even tied Roger in Majors count, he was done with tennis, and he seems to have meant that.

@DarthFed gave up on tennis in 2019, after Roger lost the Wimbledon final, and Rafa won the US Open.