Broken_Shoelace said:
calitennis127 said:
1972Murat said:
I am just wondering how that worked out for Christianity in your opinion, and do you believe anyone other than Catholics are "false" Christians?
On doctrinal grounds, absolutely. Karl Keating in particular has done some great work in responding to the Protestant heretics today who embarrass Christians as a whole (like your Tennessee dino-museum preachers).
But murat, I am still waiting for the answer to a question that you dodge over and over. How can you prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the likes of Choudary or Boko Haram are bad Muslims or fase Muslims or heretical Muslims? You and Broken have done nothing to prove that.
Beyond a shadow of a doubt? I can't. Beyond "reasonable doubt"? I absolutely can.
Show me anywhere in Islam that condones the killing of children and massacring women by the hundreds within any context.
Sure, there is a verse in the Qu'ran that some jihadis and sheikhs have used for just this purpose,
2:217:
"People ask you about fighting in the holy month. Say: “Fighting in it is an awesome sin, but barring people from the Way of Allah, disbelieving in Him, and denying entry into the Holy Mosque and expelling its inmates from it232 are more awesome acts in the sight of Allah;
and persecution is even more heinous than killing.†They will not cease fighting against you till they turn you from your religion if they can.233 (So remember well) that whoever from amongst you turns away from his religion and dies in the state of unbelief their work will go to waste in this world and in the Next. They are destined for the Fire and it is there that they will abide."
Some jihadist groups have used that line to argue that because the U.S. or Israel are oppressing Muslims (which Israel especially has), they are justified in doing just about anything in retaliation - hence, London, Madrid, 9/11, Beslan, and on and on and on.
Broken_Shoelace said:
Show me anywhere in the Quran that sanctions the killing of other Muslims unless it's anything related to the death penalty.
Just did, and I would also add that many Sunnis (particularly the Wahhabis) don't see Shiites as real Muslims.
Broken_Shoelace said:
In fact, Quran 6:151 says: “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.â€
I have not once denied that Islam has its redeeming elements that are highly moral and noble. I am not like a silly atheist who says it is all worthless or corrupting.
Broken_Shoelace said:
I mean, I seriously don't understand what proof do you want?
What I want is a centralized authority tasked with interpreting the Islamic scriptures which clearly defines doctrine in the way that the Catholic Church does on the basis of the Bible and the early Christian writings.
Like I have said over and over, you can be an entirely moral and wonderful person as a Muslim, using noble examples of conduct from Muhammad and the gentle verses of the Qu'ran as your moral modus operandi. I do not deny this. But you can also turn to the ugly parts of Muhammad's life and use his actions in those moments as justification for being a very different way, and you can also turn to the Qu'ranic verses and hadiths that justify violent jihad. Without a centralized authority that defines doctrine, you can't say that the jihadis are wrong.
Broken_Shoelace said:
So, would it be possible to find verses in the Quran that refer to the killing of non-muslims in a Jihadi context? Absolutely. Do I agree with them? Absolutely not.
Wonderful, now who is the final arbiter within Islam between your ilk and the myriad jihadist groups who invoke those verses as justification for their terrorist acts?
Broken_Shoelace said:
Are these verses meant to be applied in any context and somehow permit the massacring of 12 journalists? That's the "reasonable doubt" part. And anyone who would objectively assess it should know better.
And perhaps if you were Caliph and you had an army of like-minded scholars behind you, then we could call groups such as ISIS and Boko Haram heretics who have truly perverted the meaning of Islam and that other real Muslims could stand up in opposition to.
Let me make this simple here: if tomorrow ISIS and Boko Haram converted to Catholicism but continued to inflict the same terrorist atrocities, I could declare that they are not really Catholic/Christian by invoking a) Christian doctrine as explicated in the Catechism and other sources, and b) the example of Christ's life.
Can Muslims do that with whatever generalized doctrines they have, or by turning to the example of Muhammad? I'm afraid not.
All they can do is find a couple pleasant verses in the Qu'ran that they prefer (or claim to prefer in the case of liars like the head honchos of CAIR) to the unfriendly ones, and nothing gets resolved. I've been hearing this now for 15 years. Every time there is an Islamic terrorist act, someone (such as George Bush) trots out a verse from the Qu'ran that sounds heartwarming (like the one part of 5:32). This gets us nowhere because there is no final arbiter.
And then, there is also the principle of abrogation, whereby the peaceful verses of Muhammad's early life were superseded in importance by the later warlord verses.
Broken_Shoelace said:
By the way, can you prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that anything you're practicing/preaching is the way to go? Can you prove god exists? The answer is no. Nobody can.
That is an entirely different conversation we can have at another time. Let's try to just stay on topic of what an organized prominent religion sets as its defined core teachings.
