What are your favorite wins and worst losses (for your guy)?

[Moxie]

View attachment 5430

But seriously, though, while I agree that the gap between the Big Three and Murray is large enough to make Murray not warrant being truly part of that group--at least in terms of tennis greatness--over the course of his prime, the gap between him and everyone else was also quite large. Each year there was someone close, but he was overall the fourth best player during that time and--taking that period as a whole--no one was particularly close.

I'll put a bit of elbow grease into it. Let's look at 2008-17, which is the ten-year span that Andy finished in the top 10. I looked at the top players of that time and came up with an average ATP point value for each, over those ten years:

1. Novak Djokovic 10,097
2. Rafael Nadal 8,369
3. Roger Federer 7,742
4. Andy Murray 6,600
5. David Ferrer 3,596
6. Tomas Berdych 3,376
7. Stan Wawrinka 3,305
8. Jo-Wilfried Tsonga 2,841
9. Juan Martin del Potro 2,511
10. Marin Cilic 2,492

What stands out to me is the huge gap between Murray and the rest.

Now of course the time-span benefits Murray, as those are his prime years, but I think that's the point: for a decade, he was the clear #4 in the sport, and closer to #2-3 than he was to #5, as far as ATP points are concerned (and as a representation of overall performance).

So if we want a "Big Four Era," we can say it is 2008-17, perhaps peaking in 2012 when they all won a Slam.

Truly the Worst of the Best, and the Best of the Rest at the same time.

I appreciate your pulling these numbers together, and giving folks a memory lesson, lest they fall into recent-ism. Around '07 in the Fedal era, two young guys rose up and planted themselves in 3 & 4. Yes, Djokovic had one Major, but it was the both of them that were also winning ATP 1000s, and going deep into Majors. And yes, 2012, when they each won the Major they were most expected to. We can imagine what JMDP "might" have done, but we can't swear to it. And still, to date, the only players that have reached #1 since Roger got there in 2 Feb 2004, 17 1/2 years ago, are Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray. The man has earned his due props.

 

[rafanoy1992]

I appreciate your pulling these numbers together, and giving folks a memory lesson, lest they fall into recent-ism. Around '07 in the Fedal era, two young guys rose up and planted themselves in 3 & 4. Yes, Djokovic had one Major, but it was the both of them that were also winning ATP 1000s, and going deep into Majors. And yes, 2012, when they each won the Major they were most expected to. We can imagine what JMDP "might" have done, but we can't swear to it. And still, to date, the only players that have reached #1 since Roger got there in 2 Feb 2004, 17 1/2 years ago, are Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray. The man has earned his due props.

Just imagine if Andy Murray was born in 1997 instead of 1987. He will definitely will have more than 3 slams and maybe a longer stay in the top rankings.

 

[shawnbm]

True enough, but going back to the beginning of Open Tennis, there's always been a "Big 4" even if you had to create them out of whole cloth like making Gerulaitus part of the quartet being "BFF" with Connors, McEnroe, & Borg! A more legit 4th was Vilas, but he came and went from the tour due to suspensions of under the table $$ to play tourneys! I think that was part of him being managed by Tiriac! Murray wasn't as phony winning 3 majors, a YEC, and held the #1 ranking! Most #4's never get there; regardless if something happens to the players above them! Borg would be seeded if he came back 2 years later just lying on the beaches of Monaco! The closest we come to this actually occurring was "old man" Connors coming back from the dead as #3 behind Borg and McEnroe, but with Borg gone/retired, McEnroe unmotivated, with the help of Lendl actually pulled a Fed winning 3 majors late in his career; 2 USO's and a Wimbledon!

Now I must comment on this. Connors was not dead when he came back to win those majors. Borg had finally gotten the upper hand on Jimbo in 1979 (Jimmy was number one every year from 1974-1978 winning one Australian, one Wimbledon and three IS Opens and more big titles than anyone) after Connors had held the upper hand through 1978. McEnroe was coming into his own and was troubling both Connors and Borg. I noticed Connors slipped when he met his wife and married and took time off of the tour for a few weeks as Borg clearly went to number one and McEnroe a strong two which remained that way through 1980. McEnroe slid ahead of Borg in 1981 and Connors was a closing three and in 1982 he simply had a resurgence in play and even picked up a little more speed on his service. He legitimately topped McEnroe and the rising Lendl that year and again in New York in 1983 (over Ivan). He also beat Borg in 1982 in the big money michelob event over five sets and those big money events were fought tooth and nail in those days since they often paid much more money than the majors. Connors didn’t back in to those three majors—he won them as the better player. It is part of his durability and tenacious drive to win.

 

[Federberg]

I think another angle on this is that, in terms of career accomplishments, you have to go all the way back to Agassi and Sampras to find someone clearly better than Andy Murray (other than the Holy Trinity). I'm not talking about peak performance, as I think we can say that--at their best--Del Potro and Wawrinka were better, not to mention Safin and peak (young) Hewitt. And there are several young guys who could eventually eclipse Andy. But as far as extended quality over a long period of time, and career accomplishments, Andy Murray is the 4th best player of the 21st century.

IMO, of course.

I'm happy to give Murray his flowers. All I'm saying is that let's not go overboard and include him amongst the pantheon of the greatest players to ever play. He's not one of them by a long long long shot...

 

[shawnbm]

In furtherance of my reply about to Fiero, I personally believe the ascent of the Angelic Assassin from Sweden was the biggest factor in elevating the French Open to become of much greater interest this side of the pond, as they say. After he won there and crossed the channel and won on grass, more and more players in the top fifty from this side started going over there as a matter of perceived obligation whereas before that it was more or less a European playground for the clay courters. Borg changed that and kudos to him. Vilas played a huge role in the rise of the South Americans too!

 

[monfed]

Well obviously it's hard to look past Wim 19 but before Wim 19, the worst loss of Fed's career was USO 09 to Wan. What a chance gone begging. I mean sure Wim 08 and AO 09 hurt but atleast they were to Nadovic who are tough in the big points. I can't tolerate it if Fed loses to a slam virgin nobody like Juanito. The worst loss of his career.

 

[Federberg]

Just imagine if Andy Murray was born in 1997 instead of 1987. He will definitely will have more than 3 slams and maybe a longer stay in the top rankings.

And if he had tits he would be the greatest female player ever. Oh! I'm sorry I thought we were just pulling hypotheticals out of our a$$es

 

[Jelenafan]

OMG, worst losses for Rafa for me:

2012 AO finals when he missed a gimmee shot to go up 4-2 (?) in the 5th set versus Novak
2017 AO Finals when he had a service break 3-1 on Federer in the 5th set
2018 W Semifinals when he lost to Novak and had serveral breakpoints on Novak's serve late in the 5th set.

2007 Wimbledon final when Rafa had a chance to beak Roger's serve early in the 5th set. Rafa said afterwards it was one of the few losses he simply could not shake off by the locker room.


Best wins:

2009 Wimbledon final -did not collapse despite having a 2 set to love lead becoming a 5-set nail biter
2009 FO final- Clay court clinic
2019 USO- gutting out a 5 set win

Also my prior fave's most frustrating losses

As a kid watching the 1971 USO finals when Arthur Ashe lead Illie Nastase 2 sets to 1 and had a an opportunity to go up a 2 breaks in the 4th set (Nastase was serving at 1-4) only to ultimately lose in 5. Still remember Ashe crying l after the match...

Stefan Edberg had some of the most heartbreaking losses of all.

1991 Wimbledon (qtrs of Sf's??) losing to Michel Stich despite holding serve for 23 straight service games..!!! Was never broken.
1990 Australian Open Final withdrawing after pulled stomach muscle injury giving Lendl the victory 4-6, 7-6, 5-2
1989 French Open Final-Leading Michael Change by a 2-1 set lead and up a break in the 5th set to complete a career slam

and the 1991 AO SF's versus Lendl, where Stefan had 2 matchpoints. at 5-4 in the 4th set ...He missed the first MP by netting a BH Volley...that was his bread and butter shot...a BH VOLLEY

I need a drink after reliving all these losses....

 

[Fjaka2.0]

Favorite wins:
Goran’s Wimbledon title 2001, will never forget that tournament and summer.
Novak’s AO 12 title, FO 16 and 21, espacially the SF against Nadal, AO 19+20 …………

worst loss:
Goran’s first Wimbledon F against Agassi
Novak’s US Open disqualification

i have to be honest and add: FO 13 SF, that one hurts even today

 

[Kieran]

Favorite wins:
Goran’s Wimbledon title 2001, will never forget that tournament and summer.
Novak’s AO 12 title, FO 16 and 21, espacially the SF against Nadal, AO 19+20 …………

worst loss:
Goran’s first Wimbledon F against Agassi
Novak’s US Open disqualification

That was a match Goran could have won if he was mentally stronger. I was rooting for him that day. The final he won was probably the most popular Wimbledon Final I’ve seen. So many people were glad no matter who won, both players were so popular…

 

[tented]

Favorite wins:
Goran’s Wimbledon title 2001, will never forget that tournament and summer.
Novak’s AO 12 title, FO 16 and 21, espacially the SF against Nadal, AO 19+20 …………

worst loss:
Goran’s first Wimbledon F against Agassi
Novak’s US Open disqualification

i have to be honest and add: FO 13 SF, that one hurts even today

Welcome to Tennis Frontier!