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Moxie

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The Mueller investigation was a farce from the get-go.
In what sense would you say it was a farce? And why, all along? It was meant to investigate Russian interference in US elections, and it found cause. It found reason for alarm, in that sense. That alone justifies the investigation. What shocks me is that partisanship keeps Republicans from moving to protect the legitimacy of our elections, going forward.
 

Murat Baslamisli

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You could not pay me to watch any of the democratic debates but this exchange I saw online made me cringe. I mean, this has to be the worst moderating in the history of any debates. How low can CNN really go? After all that Bernie says/explains, how do you ask that question at the 1;40 mark? Even the audience laughed at how stupid and dismissive of Bernie the question was. The right question would be" Sen Warren, you heard Sen Sanders, what do you have to say?"
 
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mrzz

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^This is beyond crazy. This is as low as it gets. And that shit after the debate ended? I am laughing my pants off that it backfired massively. It is not everyday that you'll get to see a dishonest plot go wrong so plainly and so fast. I am not for Sander's ideas, but at least the guy seems honest and from now on I hope he crushes those crooks.
 
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tented

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You could not pay me to watch any of the democratic debates but this exchange I saw online made me cringe. I mean, this has to be the worst moderating in the history of any debates. How low can CNN really go? After all that Bernie says/explains, how do you ask that question at the 1;40 mark? Even the audience laughed at how stupid and dismissive of Bernie the question was. The right question would be" Sen Warren, you heard Sen Sanders, what do you have to say?"


I remember that moment. It was ridiculous. Either she has the memory of a goldfish, or she’s terrible at this.
 
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britbox

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^This is beyond crazy. This is as low as it gets. And that shit after the debate ended? I am laughing my pants off that it backfired massively. It is not everyday that you'll get to see a dishonest plot go wrong so plainly and so fast. I am not for Sander's ideas, but at least the guy seems honest and from now on I hope he crushes those crooks.
He has authenticity even if you disagree with his policies.
 

calitennis127

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I mean, this has to be the worst moderating in the history of any debates. How low can CNN really go?

Sorry murat, the Bernie crowd won't get one tiny drop of sympathy from me on this. CNN has treated Trump this way for years but none of the Bernie admirers have come to Trump's defense (with one exception, the admirable Aaron Mate at The Nation magazine). Instead, the Bernie followers have repeated the completely illogical and irrational talking point of the Democratic Party and the mainstream media that Trump is attacking the First Amendment when he uses the term "fake news" or criticizes CNN. This accusation is utterly preposterous. When Trump criticizes the media, he is merely exercising his own First Amendment right to say whatever he damn well pleases in the political sphere. And CNN has gotten so many stories wrong that calling them "fake news" is entirely justified at times.

And now the Bernie crowd wants to call out CNN for biased reporting? Please. Aside from Aaron Mate, they never said a peep during the Russian collusion hoax about CNN peddling completely superstitious nonsense.

Also - notice how no one is now saying that Bernie's followers are attacking the First Amendment for criticizing CNN. Isn't that such an amusing little double standard? If Trump criticizes CNN, he is "lying" and being a dictator and attacking the First Amendment. If Bernie bros attack CNN, they are simply calling for fairness.

Sure.

The Bernie crowd is a total and complete joke. They are by far the most dangerous people in America.
 

calitennis127

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^This is beyond crazy. This is as low as it gets. And that shit after the debate ended? I am laughing my pants off that it backfired massively. It is not everyday that you'll get to see a dishonest plot go wrong so plainly and so fast. I am not for Sander's ideas, but at least the guy seems honest and from now on I hope he crushes those crooks.

Sorry, I don't share those sentiments. If CNN crushes Bernie's chances, that is the one and only good thing they will have done since 2016. What they did to him in the debate was completely low, but that doesn't change the reality of just how pernicious the Sanders' movement is. His followers are totalitarian zealots who not only would destroy the economy but clearly exhibit murderous and even genocidal intentions.

Didn't you see the new Project Veritas video of a Bernie Sanders' campaign manager celebrating the murders committed by Cuban Communists, defending the idea of gulags, and calling for re-education camps in America? Why exactly should we feel any sympathy for such people? It would be like finding out that someone stole a $50 bill from Hitler or Stalin. Petty theft might be an unethical act but it doesn't mean that we have to slobber over the victim for deserving so much better in life. Do you really want me to feel bad for people like this white male disgrace to humanity?

 

calitennis127

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hilarious...

What's hilarious is that you apparently are unaware of the Horowitz report and the Horowitz testimony from December, in which he said that there were 17 errors and omissions in the FISA application process, which was the precursor of the Mueller investigation and the origin of all the talk about "Russian collusion." You are also apparently unaware that Horowitz found that one anti-Trump FBI official (Kevin Clinesmith) deliberately altered an email about Carter Page during the time when the Russia investigation was heating up.

That's what's hilarious.....your ignorance is indeed hilarious. You are completely misinformed and underinformed.

Britbox is completely right. The Mueller investigation was a farce from the get-go.

FBI lawyer under criminal investigation altered document to say Carter Page 'was not a source' for another agency

 

Murat Baslamisli

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Sorry murat, the Bernie crowd won't get one tiny drop of sympathy from me on this. CNN has treated Trump this way for years but none of the Bernie admirers have come to Trump's defense (with one exception, the admirable Aaron Mate at The Nation magazine). Instead, the Bernie followers have repeated the completely illogical and irrational talking point of the Democratic Party and the mainstream media that Trump is attacking the First Amendment when he uses the term "fake news" or criticizes CNN. This accusation is utterly preposterous. When Trump criticizes the media, he is merely exercising his own First Amendment right to say whatever he damn well pleases in the political sphere. And CNN has gotten so many stories wrong that calling them "fake news" is entirely justified at times.

And now the Bernie crowd wants to call out CNN for biased reporting? Please. Aside from Aaron Mate, they never said a peep during the Russian collusion hoax about CNN peddling completely superstitious nonsense.

Also - notice how no one is now saying that Bernie's followers are attacking the First Amendment for criticizing CNN. Isn't that such an amusing little double standard? If Trump criticizes CNN, he is "lying" and being a dictator and attacking the First Amendment. If Bernie bros attack CNN, they are simply calling for fairness.

Sure.

The Bernie crowd is a total and complete joke. They are by far the most dangerous people in America.
Cali, I do not disagree with anything you say about Bernie but that was not the point of my post. I have read Solzhenitsyn so Bernie's ideology is garbage for me. The point was more about CNN and how bad they have handled the whole thing. You must have cringed a tiny bit after that question to Warren.
 

calitennis127

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Cali, I do not disagree with anything you say about Bernie but that was not the point of my post. I have read Solzhenitsyn so Bernie's ideology is garbage for me. The point was more about CNN and how bad they have handled the whole thing. You must have cringed a tiny bit after that question to Warren.

No I didn't cringe because I expect them to be that low. What would surprise me is if they didn't do something like that. They did the same thing a few weeks ago by telling Joe Biden on the debate stage that the allegations of misconduct against his son were "unfounded" or something to that effect. Not to mention Donna Brazile sneaking debate questions to Hillary in 2016. That is simply what they do and Trump is completely right to criticize them.

But let me ask you this: if CNN did the exact same thing to Trump that they did to Bernie, how many Bernie fans would come to Trump's defense? You can count them on one hand. In that case, they would all side with CNN and the Democratic establishment in a heartbeat.
 

brokenshoelace

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Here is Broken using the Republican debate tactic of accusing his opponents of misdeeds when they accuse his preferred side of misdeeds. This is Broken engaging in "whataboutism." In the entire world only Republicans do this; therefore Broken must be a Republican.

So not only is Broken repeating Tucker Carlson's foreign policy assessment nowadays, but he is also engaging in Republican debate tactics. He really must be a Fox News devotee.

Broken is pure Fox News now.



Broken again engaging in Republican-style debate tactics of "whataboutism." He deflected from Soleimani's misdeeds to bring up those of people he objects to.

So Republican of him. Broken is a total Republican. He uses the exact same debate tactics.

Pointing out someone's hypocrisy is not "whataboutism."

If America's whole rationale for killing someone and engaging in full scale wars that kill thousands of innocents is accusing people (rightly or otherwise) of crimes the USA itself has committed more than anyone else, then the natural reaction is to point out to that fact, is it not?
 

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Sorry, I don't share those sentiments. If CNN crushes Bernie's chances, that is the one and only good thing they will have done since 2016. What they did to him in the debate was completely low, but that doesn't change the reality of just how pernicious the Sanders' movement is. His followers are totalitarian zealots who not only would destroy the economy but clearly exhibit murderous and even genocidal intentions.

Didn't you see the new Project Veritas video of a Bernie Sanders' campaign manager celebrating the murders committed by Cuban Communists, defending the idea of gulags, and calling for re-education camps in America? Why exactly should we feel any sympathy for such people? It would be like finding out that someone stole a $50 bill from Hitler or Stalin. Petty theft might be an unethical act but it doesn't mean that we have to slobber over the victim for deserving so much better in life. Do you really want me to feel bad for people like this white male disgrace to humanity?



I pretty much know the kind of people shown in this video, and please note that I said I sympathize (in a limited sense) with Sanders and not with Sanders supporters -- or at least with a specific sub-group among them, and again I stated explicitly that I am not for his ideas (or for his ideology).

Guys like the one in the video are complete idiots -- but those bark much more than bite. On the other hand, "Warren supporters" (if we are to compare the crowds), at least a specif and extremely powerful group, will bite much more than bark.

I could give a long reply (and this is a good discussion to have), but I simply do not have the time (please believe me). So I will just add two points:

1) Make a comparison and/or analogy to Trump supporters: You have a sub-group of them who are indeed white supremacists and belong to the KKK. Do they represent the group (Trump supporters, either vocal or silent) as a whole? No. But the "left"try to paint everyone with the same brush, which bares some resemblance to what is happening here, even if I agree with the thing that I know you are going to reply, that the extremist portion of Sanders supporters is probably more statistically relevant than the extremist portion of Trump supporters.

As I put in other posts, for me a politician is as effective as how much he can control the mad dogs in his base -- in real life politics he cannot afford to complete cut free from them and/or simply cannot shake them off. Trump is proving to be more efficient than I thought he would be in that regard. It remains to be seen how Sanders would fare.

In Brazil we had 3,5 terms of a left wing government who had a rhetoric which was far more extreme than Sanders' (years before first election and immediately before the first election they won). After elected they were far, far less radical, tending actually to real center in long stretches. Not that I believe they made a good government as a whole, but people feared that private property would be challenged by those guys and it did not come even close to that.

But, yes, there is always a risk when you have people with that discourse in your base, I get that, the only thing is that I assess that risk differently.

2) Guys like the one in this video are completely lost in time. His words were outdated already in the eighties, as a Marxist take on the economy was outdated already 100 years ago. Good part of the left literally lives in the past. But part of the critics of the left also live in past. Take the Cuban revolution for example:

Batista's Cuba was a corrupt dictatorship of an irrelevant and submissive client state of the US. I completely understand and do not morally condemn an armed opposition, and thus a violent revolution, against such government. I simply find invalid to impose generally on the "left" the supposed crimes committed during a bloody revolution. However, I am fully aware that the post-revolution Cuban government slowly (or not so slowly) turned into a violent dictatorship itself, as is so common in extreme left wing governments. I agree that left wing governments structurally are much more prone to dictatorships than almost any other kind of government. My only point is that is incorrect to say that it is inherent to the "left" the explicit totalitarian extreme. Historically, yes, there were strong and once important currents that were openly totalitarian, but nowadays people who support that approach are pretty much marginalized, or, in other words, the kind of totalitarianism imposed by "PC people" is a much more real threat IMO. Again, you will reply that the guy on the video has an active role on Sander's campaign. The question is how much power guys like this actually have.

Know that I think of it, yes, it is a bit scary to think about the "Bernie" crowd getting to the government, but I do think that in any real world scenario the "adult" compromises needed to actually win an election would naturally remove most radicals from the real nucleus of the group that will end up getting to power.

Again, I could be wrong, and I get the option of not wanting to run that risk at all costs. Part of my "sympathy" for Sanders (again, not for his ideas, I could write pages on why he is wrong in a lot of topics) comes from the fact that I felt that the guys is smart enough to understand how disconnected from the world a good part of his base is (and, again, I know this is a complete subjective and unsupported by facts opinion).

This answer ended up long, and going in a different direction than I first imagined, and it probably sounds way less critical of an extreme left government than I actually am. If I would put it in just one phrase, there is a huge difference between a Stalinist regime and a welfare state. In normal times I would probably delete most of I what I wrote and complete re-structure it, but not today...
 

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Fascinating. Trump's defence literally doesn't argue the charges. I'm blown away by this. When the Senate votes not to remove him all those who vote in his favour will be marked in history for this. He could at least give them some sort of out, but he won't...
 

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Fascinating. Trump's defence literally doesn't argue the charges. I'm blown away by this. When the Senate votes not to remove him all those who vote in his favour will be marked in history for this. He could at least give them some sort of out, but he won't...

That didn’t really surprise you, did it?
 

Federberg

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That didn’t really surprise you, did it?
In a way it did. But the more I think about it, there's a certain malicious genius to this. By not challenging the factual basis for this impeachment you can argue that no witness testimony is required. It's brilliant actually
 

calitennis127

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Fascinating. Trump's defence literally doesn't argue the charges. I'm blown away by this.

What the f are you talking about? "Trump's defence" has argued the charges at every step of the way. It's the Democrats who have ignored the rebuttals at almost every turn. Democrats initially promised bribery, extortion, and quid pro quo and they have not used any of that language in the articles of impeachment because they could not prove it. It's amazing that people like you even participate in the political process because your laziness and sloppiness are simply astounding. You are ignorant of basic information and absolutely clueless.

Jonathan Turley already shredded the second article of impeachment and what response have Democrats had? Absolutely none.



Ambassador Volker told Turner that the president did not tell him aid was conditioned on investigations and that the president expressed concerns about corruption in Ukraine. Do you even know the basic facts of this impeachment case? I know the answer to that one.



When the Senate votes not to remove him all those who vote in his favour will be marked in history for this

Only history written by idiots like yourself, but that is not a definitive version of "history."
 
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calitennis127

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That didn’t really surprise you, did it?


Look here, the dad of the boards, the responsible voice, the objective analyst ultimately is what? Just a lazy Democratic partisan who clearly did not follow the impeachment story with any intellectual rigor or attention to detail. For all the appearances of someone who is objectively above the fray, tented just emotionally swings with the headlines of the mainstream media. But at least (unlike Federberg) he does not blabber about it.
 

calitennis127

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In a way it did. But the more I think about it, there's a certain malicious genius to this. By not challenging the factual basis for this impeachment you can argue that no witness testimony is required. It's brilliant actually

Okay Federberg, what is the "factual basis for the impeachment" that they are not challenging? Go ahead big boy. Justify your contentions. Let's see what you've got.
 

Federberg

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Mate if you don't understand what Trump's legal team put forth as a rebuttal then I can't do anything to help you. I would suggest you grow a brain, but you're a moron. That's never going to change..
 
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