US Open Final: Novak Djokovic v Stan Wawrinka

[Andre10is]

There is nothing in today's match. Nole's statement was that Gael's tactics were perhaps questionable but he needed to do what he had to.

ESPN guys were talking about their USO match in 2005 where Nole took several MTOs and Gael wasn't far behind him. But that is all way in the past and both got over it.

SHAMElessly US media r putting on negative spin on #1, evrth bout #1 begins with a negation eg whoz 2 stop... whenz it gonna end... NN zgot a good chance if NN does this or NN does that gainst #1 etc... is it just me or anb actually observe this BS I CANT help but wonder

 

[masterclass]

It make no difference how fast or slow Novak's serve is normally.
If his shoulder were significantly injured, his normal serve speed would be significantly decreased.
It has not. His top speed was 124 in the first set and 121, in the 4th set of the last match.
With a shoulder injury, I would expect his top speed to go down to at least 110, lower if the injury is more severe..
His avg 1st serve would go from 114 to at most 105,
One just can't keep serving normal speed with a shoulder injury.

He got the MTO after being broken, and then won every game from that point.
It was a momentum breaker. After the match he said he was fine.

Aces are a result of serve speed (influenced by conditions), placement, and the returner's ability to return.
Novak has never been known as an ace machine, though he has improved his serve some in the last couple of years.

More double faults can come from nerves, pressure, exhaustion, or simply when a player hasn't played a lot of matches and is inconsistent.
I think with Nole, recipient of a walkover and 2 retirements, and not a lot of play since Roland Garros, it is mostly the latter.

Respectfully,
masterclass

 

[Mary]

It is no secret that Nole is not known for how hard he can hit his serve. Even he acknowledged that the speed of it is not his strongest suit. He counts on placement and variety. So those MPHs on his serve are almost always the same as he knows he can't really force it much higher without some serious trouble. Perhaps in tournaments when he is really fresh he can up them 2-3 MPH but that his ceiling.

What is telling is number of Aces vs Double faults in this tournament. The first match (where his average serve speed was the slowest) he had 12 aces and 5 double faults. but then it started to go way down on aces department and up in double faults: R4 3 aces 7 double faults; QF 1 ace 3 double faults; SF 1 ace 7 double faults. None of the opponents were really super returners, so the serving stats are not that encouraging.

You are right. The number of double faults is telling and his serve stats are well down recently. Like you I watch as many of his matches as I can and these things stand out. I think the forehand was a bit suspect too and any one watching his last service game v Monfils could tell all was not well. But as you say all we can do is hope and wait to see. Most players do not admit to injury especially just before a huge final, he would say he was fine anyway.

I have seen so many players, men and women reduced to orthopaedic case books by the time they are in their mid thirties. Becker must have had so many joint replacements, Nadal is of course another. Del Potro too. Kyle Edmund only 20 but has had loads of injuries, Thiem already having problems. Sharapova had massive surgery too, its endless. It makes me mad when McEnroe and Connors criticize, I don't think they'd last long in today's game.

 

[Billie]

SHAMElessly US media r putting on negative spin on #1, evrth bout #1 begins with a negation eg whoz 2 stop... whenz it gonna end... NN zgot a good chance if NN does this or NN does that gainst #1 etc... is it just me or anb actually observe this BS I CANT help but wonder

I don't know. I've followed him for a long time and frankly it doesn't bother me anymore. It is what it is. Maybe the hype before the tournament was on some other players, but that's what happens when #1 loses a couple of matches and others get into the mix. It does seem that a lot of things Novak says or does are blown out of proportions and are put a negative spin by the media. I think there is something about it.

 

[Billie]

You are right. The number of double faults is telling and his serve stats are well down recently. Like you I watch as many of his matches as I can and these things stand out. I think the forehand was a bit suspect too and any one watching his last service game v Monfils could tell all was not well. But as you say all we can do is hope and wait to see. Most players do not admit to injury especially just before a huge final, he would say he was fine anyway.

I have seen so many players, men and women reduced to orthopaedic case books by the time they are in their mid thirties. Becker must have had so many joint replacements, Nadal is of course another. Del Potro too. Kyle Edmund only 20 but has had loads of injuries, Thiem already having problems. Sharapova had massive surgery too, its endless. It makes me mad when McEnroe and Connors criticize, I don't think they'd last long in today's game.

Absolutely Mary. I frankly would not dare to criticise one tennis player for almost anything they do on tennis court seeing what they have to go through. Many, many former professionals suffered a lot after their playing career and now many are suffering during their careers. There were a couple of very young and promising tennis players from Serbia, but after not hearing about them for a year, I searched for some news and to my surprise they both had injuries, surgeries, and they are not even 20 years old. I mean, really!

 

[Mary]

I don't know. I've followed him for a long time and frankly it doesn't bother me anymore. It is what it is. Maybe the hype before the tournament was on some other players, but that's what happens when #1 loses a couple of matches and others get into the mix. It does seem that a lot of things Novak says or does are blown out of proportions and are put a negative spin by the media. I think there is something about it.

The UK press is very biased, we get used to it. And there is a current joke about our BBC (who are of course devotees of Murray) that says they see no truth, hear no truth, speak no truth and if they should happen on any truth they bin it!

 

[Billie]

SHAMElessly US media r putting on negative spin on #1, evrth bout #1 begins with a negation eg whoz 2 stop... whenz it gonna end... NN zgot a good chance if NN does this or NN does that gainst #1 etc... is it just me or anb actually observe this BS I CANT help but wonder

Shame on me, I forgot to welcome you to the forum, I just saw that this was your first post. Hopefully we'll see many more.

 

[Mary]

SHAMElessly US media r putting on negative spin on #1, evrth bout #1 begins with a negation eg whoz 2 stop... whenz it gonna end... NN zgot a good chance if NN does this or NN does that gainst #1 etc... is it just me or anb actually observe this BS I CANT help but wonder

Hello and welcome from me too!

 

[Andre10is]

Shame on me, I forgot to welcome you to the forum, I just saw that this was your first post. Hopefully we'll see many more.

glad 2 b aboard))) i ve started off with a wrong foot probably - about that negative spin media puts on against #1 my motto in the heat of a tennis battle is 2 stay POSITIVE)))

 

[Mary]

Absolutely Mary. I frankly would not dare to criticise one tennis player for almost anything they do on tennis court seeing what they have to go through. Many, many former professionals suffered a lot after their playing career and now many are suffering during their careers. There were a couple of very young and promising tennis players from Serbia, but after not hearing about them for a year, I searched for some news and to my surprise they both had injuries, surgeries, and they are not even 20 years old. I mean, really!

It's sad, to think that at such a young age they sustain damage that will bother them for their whole lives. The top players can afford their own teams of physios of course but it's very tough on the younger ones.

 

[Billie]

A nice article about Stan and Nole rivalry:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/11/sports/novak-djokovic-stan-wawrinka-us-open.html?_r=0

 

[Mary]

glad 2 b aboard))) i ve started off with a wrong foot probably - about that negative spin media puts on against #1 my motto in the heat of a tennis battle is 2 stay POSITIVE)))

You haven't started off wrong at all, you are absolutely right! The media always has it's own agenda and it is sadly not about truthful reporting.

 

[Mary]

A nice article about Stan and Nole rivalry:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/11/sports/novak-djokovic-stan-wawrinka-us-open.html?_r=0

I remember at Wimbledon 2015 just after he won the French Stan had a barbecue to which Nole went and they looked very friendly in the photographs. It's nice to see, don't think top level competition leads to friendship very often. Not sure what he could have barbecued that Nole would eat though!

 

[Billie]

glad 2 b aboard))) i ve started off with a wrong foot probably - about that negative spin media puts on against #1 my motto in the heat of a tennis battle is 2 stay POSITIVE)))

Ha good point. Even when my fave tennis player loses, I always think: Who knows it might be a blessing in disguise. Staying positive for professional players is even more important. After all how many times we've seen a player saving match point(s) and go on to win.

 

[Billie]

I remember at Wimbledon 2015 just after he won the French Stan had a barbecue to which Nole went and they looked very friendly in the photographs. It's nice to see, don't think top level competition leads to friendship very often. Not sure what he could have barbecued that Nole would eat though!

Ha ha...maybe fish? Nole eats that sometimes. My guess would be some vegetables, though.

Becker talked about it, he said he encouraged Nole to reach out to Stan, they practices together there as well. I know many people think that you can't be friendly with your fierce competition, but there can be some social interactions, respect and mutual likeness. It can get lonely without any kind of friendships on the tour.

 

[Andre10is]

Absolutely Mary. I frankly would not dare to criticise one tennis player for almost anything they do on tennis court seeing what they have to go through. Many, many former professionals suffered a lot after their playing career and now many are suffering during their careers. There were a couple of very young and promising tennis players from Serbia, but after not hearing about them for a year, I searched for some news and to my surprise they both had injuries, surgeries, and they are not even 20 years old. I mean, really!

hard courts r HARMful to play upon to jump upon to run upon. HARD surface is good for populariz8 of the game of tennis yes, but for training = asking for injuries short term and long term.

When we compare the previous generations with today game, good ol' times trainign with today training = we should bear in mind that we r killing today JOINTS by hard courts wide spread popularity a CAVEAT should be attached to each hard court))))

i dont foresee a solution in my blaming the hard surface, but in HINDsight clay'n'grass of the auld lang syne of PRE-"open era" were MORE sparing of the joints of the legends. i REALLY expose hard surface as THE culprit esp. of the "young guns" mentioned above((((

 

[Billie]

I agree @Andre10is I don't think human bodies are as much advanced as the technology of tennis racquets, balls, courts, etc. The previous generations had different problems, but it is not easy to play a professional sport, especially as demanding as tennis. Half of majors is hard courts, most masters 1000 events are hard courts. They are the easiest to maintain, I guess. I don't know how tennis will develop in future but I don't wish for anybody to suffer serious physical consequences after their careers are over.

 

[Andre10is]

You haven't started off wrong at all, you are absolutely right! The media always has it's own agenda and it is sadly not about truthful reporting.

thrwz an old woman who lived in a shoe
she had so many STATs she didnt no wht2do
given negative spin & of truth some shred
nbd telling her
#1 gonna whip #3 soundly
& send'm home 2 Swtzland

 

[Denis]

@masterclass thanks for the serve stats. That is indeed a good sign. However, on eurosport they were showing some different stats that were showing quite a different picture in terms of accuracy. Compared to previous years Djokovic's serve this year has been much more inside the lines and not as accurate. The commentators were speculating it was because of the shoulder.

 

[Mary]

And a final note, it really does not matter if somebody is slightly injured or not. It is the finals day and usually the person who is most physically and mentally ready, who hits the ball better and who has stronger desire and determination will almost always win.

Enjoy the match!