Uncle Toni Admits to On Court Coaching

[Johnsteinbeck]

^ What it really is, Ricardo, is that I don't really understand how it can work, or what possible good it can do, shouting a few notes from the stands.

alright, i'll simplify down to this. The logic is, if a player does it without coaching that's one outcome. When a coach does on court coaching (tell the player to hit flatter, stand closer/further, etc), if the player listens it brings another outcome of a match - the extent may be just a point, or a game, or more. The rule aims to eliminate the possibility of making this different outcome however big/slight it is, as far as coach-involvement is concerned - of course it's all on the technical side we are talking here.
The rule specifically prohibits this behavior, there should've been no argument about this... whether or not you are a fan.

The 'come on's and 'you can do it' etc is not defined as 'coaching', which everyone knows, so don't try to confuse the issue.

According to you, they should do it like Davis Cup since it doesn't make any difference, then all is fine.

this has got to be one of the most complicated "simplifications" i've ever read.

you do hit the nail on the head at the end though. and trust me, there are many who'd say that the Davis Cup coach really doesn't make all that much of a difference. i think i've referenced Thomas Muster before (who said DC captain duties include three kinds of holding - holding the water bottle, holding the towel, and holding your mouth shut (i know it doesn't quite work in english. it's great in german with a heavy austrian dialect, though ).

but other players might appreciate some outside input. i think it'd be even more relevant with the youngsters. and that's why i agree with you on the subject - in the end, you have to either allow or ban it, and if you ban it, then you also have to enforce it.

and since tennis has that rule, it's once again a very sensitive move by good ol' Toni. kind of a slap in the face of some of Rafa's opponents - "yeah, btw, i'm constantly breaking the rules of the sport trying to help my nephew". the fact that he's potentially not even really helping (and that it might be mostly for his own mental well-being) is kind of making it worse... like feeding someone banned PEDs even though his body can't process them anyway.

 

[Ricardo]

^ What it really is, Ricardo, is that I don't really understand how it can work, or what possible good it can do, shouting a few notes from the stands.

alright, i'll simplify down to this. The logic is, if a player does it without coaching that's one outcome. When a coach does on court coaching (tell the player to hit flatter, stand closer/further, etc), if the player listens it brings another outcome of a match - the extent may be just a point, or a game, or more. The rule aims to eliminate the possibility of making this different outcome however big/slight it is, as far as coach-involvement is concerned - of course it's all on the technical side we are talking here.
The rule specifically prohibits this behavior, there should've been no argument about this... whether or not you are a fan.

The 'come on's and 'you can do it' etc is not defined as 'coaching', which everyone knows, so don't try to confuse the issue.

According to you, they should do it like Davis Cup since it doesn't make any difference, then all is fine.

this has got to be one of the most complicated "simplifications" i've ever read.

you do hit the nail on the head at the end though. and trust me, there are many who'd say that the Davis Cup coach really doesn't make all that much of a difference. i think i've referenced Thomas Muster before (who said DC captain duties include three kinds of holding - holding the water bottle, holding the towel, and holding your mouth shut (i know it doesn't quite work in english. it's great in german with a heavy austrian dialect, though ).

but other players might appreciate some outside input. i think it'd be even more relevant with the youngsters. and that's why i agree with you on the subject - in the end, you have to either allow or ban it, and if you ban it, then you also have to enforce it.

and since tennis has that rule, it's once again a very sensitive move by good ol' Toni. kind of a slap in the face of some of Rafa's opponents - "yeah, btw, i'm constantly breaking the rules of the sport trying to help my nephew". the fact that he's potentially not even really helping (and that it might be mostly for his own mental well-being) is kind of making it worse... like feeding someone banned PEDs even though his body can't process them anyway.

Doesn't matter whose opinion it is, the logic still holds about the different outcomes.

Obviously many believe it makes a difference (so they do it), and some don't.... but that is all irrelevant, so i don't see the point about referring to somebody's opinion.

 

[Mog]

I think we are talking about two different issues here.
The discussion started because " uncle Tony admits to on courts coaching" The ATP has a rule against on court coaching. If there is a rule it is illegal.
But some here are trying to justify what he is doing is right by twisting the argument. Whatt he is doing is wrong if there is an ATP rule against it.

Now regarding whether it is effectivve or make a big difference in case of Nadal is a different issue. I agree with Shawnbm that on the court the players are there on their own to put it into practice.

 

[ClayDeath]

of course it is against the rules but all I am saying is that we are also talking about the most stubborn player ever lived. he refuses to change a damn thing.

that is why he is #5 now. and this player did this to himself in his prime when he had everybody`s number.


he simply does not listen to anybody. maybe that is why tony keeps yelling from the stands.

 

[DarthFed]

^ What it really is, Ricardo, is that I don't really understand how it can work, or what possible good it can do, shouting a few notes from the stands.

It's naive to think that players, even the best in the world, are playing tactically perfect all the time. It's pretty obvious that in the heat of the battle, a quick paced battle at that, there are times when players are not noticing certain patterns that their coaches can see. They might not notice how bad their opponent's forehand has been, they might not notice every serve on the deuce side is going out wide, etc. If Toni notices Rafa isn't mixing up the serve enough or that he isn't hitting the backhand with enough authority (just random examples) he can mention these things, and it can certainly help. There are reasons rules are made. If the ATP thought it was so meaningless they wouldn't have them in place.

 

[ftan]

^ This and since when "hit more to the forehand' does not count as coaching. Even while practicing coach just tells what to do and it's the player who actually does it .. so I don't get how some people say it does not matter

 

[britbox]

Uncle Toni is pretty silly in admitting it even if he is. It makes it difficult for the ATP to overlook.

 

[Kieran]

Uncle Toni is pretty silly in admitting it even if he is. It makes it difficult for the ATP to overlook.

I don't know, they've managed that fairly successfully so far...

 

[huntingyou]

If you read the whole interview in Spanish..it doesn't come up as coaching for the sake of coaching alone. Funny how the question didn't gave him room to maneuver.

 

[Moxie]

If you read the whole interview in Spanish..it doesn't come up as coaching for the sake of coaching alone. Funny how the question didn't gave him room to maneuver.

HY, even though I've made an effort to soft-pedal it, mostly because I don't see how it matters that much, but Toni wasn't backed into a corner.

¿Cómo se comunican en la pista cuando Rafa está jugando?
Hablando. Ya sé que no está muy permitido pero considero que a mi edad, tampoco tengo que esconderme. No tengo por sistema, hacer señas. Hablo lo que puedo hablar. Me extralimito un poco a lo permitido pero miro de hablar con él siempre que lo necesito.

(I translated this earlier in the thread.) He could have merely said he didn't and moved on. He did walk straight into it. It's clear that he doesn't think he's outside (though at the limit) of his rights. But he says it's what HE needs to do. Rafa has also said that Toni talks too much when he plays. I've actually seen him give him the "shush" gesture.

 

[lacatch]

No matter how independent a player, a coach may observe things more objectively, and consequently have a helpful tip or two not obvious to a player in the heat of it. Possible advantage from coaching. And coaching is not at the limit of Toni's rights--it is prohibited by ATP rules from the box during matches.

 

[Cosmo]

Uncle Toni is pretty silly in admitting it even if he is. It makes it difficult for the ATP to overlook.

I don't know, they've managed that fairly successfully so far...

They sure have.
I agree with those who hold that it matters not whether Nadal listens or whether it actually helps him. It's against the rules, and I think it is dishonorable to repeatedly break the rules.

 

[Moxie]

Uncle Toni is pretty silly in admitting it even if he is. It makes it difficult for the ATP to overlook.

I don't know, they've managed that fairly successfully so far...

They sure have.
I agree with those who hold that it matters not whether Nadal listens or whether it actually helps him. It's against the rules, and I think it is dishonorable to repeatedly break the rules.

Fair enough. And good to see you around, Cosmo!

 

[I.Haychew]

Uncle Toni is pretty silly in admitting it even if he is. It makes it difficult for the ATP to overlook.

I don't know, they've managed that fairly successfully so far...

They sure have.
I agree with those who hold that it matters not whether Nadal listens or whether it actually helps him. It's against the rules, and I think it is dishonorable to repeatedly break the rules.

That's how I see it.

 

[Mastoor]

Where I am coming from, when they let you break the rules repeatedly, you make the system corrupt. And in the case of the family, it is not only coaching, but also in between points time, better known as 31.4 seconds rule.

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

^ well if you do want to mention time - over the past days, i finally got around to watching the SW19 final. for one, i was quite impressed with the quality of the match for long periods. but the other thing i noted and kind of wanted to remark on is how awfully long one of the two players took between points when there was some pressure on... hint: it wasn't the one who won.

 

[Mastoor]

How long was that john? Enlighten me. How long was No1e taking on his service having over 15,000 British nationalists screaming at him?

I was talking about every average Nadal match, not those ones where entire stadium was yelling at him. For years he was breaking the rule many times in every single match.

 

[Kieran]

How long was that john? Enlighten me. How long was No1e taking on his service having over 15,000 British nationalists screaming at him?

I was talking about every average Nadal match, not those ones where entire stadium was yelling at him. For years he was breaking the rule many times in every single match.

Come on, the Buddhist of Monte Carlo can chuck a zen moment at a bit of rowdiness, surely? But anyway, Nole is famous for ball-bouncing until the ump calls for new balls.

I thought you knew this?

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

Mastoor - even you can't deny that Novak isn't exactly a rapid-serve kinda guy. when you're referencing the past for Rafa, you'll also want to admit that Novak In The Past has been every bit as bad. he kind of reined it on the bounces by now, and tries a little harder to play by the rules, it seems.

if you'd really want to go to counting seconds, or if you just want to know what prompted me to even bring it up: here you go, djokovic serving as he's up 4-2. he takes
30 secs at 0-30,
35 secs (plus 10 between 1st and 2nd srv) at 15-40.
another 30 (+ 14 between 1st/2nd) at 30-40.
30 seconds at deuce #1.
30 seconds at deuce #2 (after a return winner).
then about 35 seconds at break point (Novak fell on the point before, but i also start counting very late to partially make up for it).

now, we don't even have to resort to the (too short) ITF regulations, even under ATP that would be a little too much. also, you might notice that as soon as Novak starts the bounceroo, the crowd goes rather silent immediately each time.
btw, not denying that Rafa isn't guilty of that as well, and not debating whether or not it's a good rule in the first place. just found it odd that a Novak aficionado would even bring up the issue, and felt like commenting on it because i'd recently been watching the tapes.

 

[tented]

Uncle Toni is pretty silly in admitting it even if he is. It makes it difficult for the ATP to overlook.

I don't know, they've managed that fairly successfully so far...

They sure have.
I agree with those who hold that it matters not whether Nadal listens or whether it actually helps him. It's against the rules, and I think it is dishonorable to repeatedly break the rules.

I agree, Cosmos, and, as most of you know, I'm about as big a Nadal fan as you're likely to find.

Toni's statement comes across as a cavalier, almost smug dismissal of the ATP rules. It's reminiscent of Leona Helmsley saying "only the little people pay taxes."