To Tank or Not to Tank?

[Sundaymorningguy]

Here is my take on the matter regardless of the intangibles if you are in sports you should be in it to win every match that you play period. Let's say that she did let Ana win in two sets. That doesn't solve the problem of having to play someone like Serena in a final period at some point. Sooner or later, Simona would have to get through Serena to win in a final. It is better she experience playing Serena now on a big stage in a final than in a slam final. Can't put a band-aid on a problem like Serena . Sooner or later you have to pull that band-aid off. Serena has the right attitude which is why she wins most of the time in that she doesn't care who she plays. Not to mention, Simona learned a very valuable lesson today that Serena before a final is very different than Serena Williams in a final. I feel it is very important for players to understand that.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Here is my take on the matter regardless of the intangibles if you are in sports you should be in it to win every match that you play period. Let's say that she did let Ana win in two sets. That doesn't solve the problem of having to play someone like Serena in a final period at some point. Sooner or later, Simona would have to get through Serena to win in a final. It is better she experience playing Serena now on a big stage in a final than in a slam final. Can't put a band-aid on a problem like Serena . Sooner or later you have to pull that band-aid off. Serena has the right attitude which is why she wins most of the time in that she doesn't care who she plays. Not to mention, Simona learned a very valuable lesson today that Serena before a final is very different than Serena Williams in a final. I feel it is very important for players to understand that.

Forgetting, the "ethics part" aside, your plan does not make sense at all. In all other
tourneys, one could not avoid anybody and you have to play whoever is across the net.
This is the only tourney where you can do something about it.

Just because she cannot avoid playing Serena in a GS does not mean, she should
go out of the way to play her here (for practice?). In fact, it should be the other way.
Because, she cannot avoid Serena in GS, she should avoid here when she can.

 

[RJD11]

Simona could have tanked that match and eliminated Serena.

She didn't. And gained huge respect from me. She has joined my

fav list.

I remember a few years ago ago Kuzzy was in similar position

and could have eliminated a Williams by tanking a meaningless match.

She didn't. In fact she went on and won the match. When asked

by the media why she didn't tank she replied " When I go on the

court I bring my name ". Well Simona brought her name, and left

the court with respect and integrity beside her name. clap

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I find this post highly offensive.I happen to have first hand knowledge in regards to a player 'Tanking',which was investigated at the highest level from tennis officials one year at the Sydney tournament,when I was working.

Tennis is a profession,to me anyone that calls out a player for 'tanking' better have enough evidence in the first place,before making such 'unethical' remarks.

Halep is a tennis professional,players have to maintain their ethics at all times.Halep was a member of the elite Top 8 this year,she proved she is a worthy player,what tennis professional that has made the elite Top 8 would think of such a thing in the first place?.Enough said from me on this particular subject.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Tanking has nothing to do with whether a player is considered an elite player or not. It only has
to do with whether a player has integrity or not despite the temptation to gain competitive
advantage. The notion that elite players such as some one who could make it into the WTAF
would not even consider tanking is being naïve. History is full of all kinds of
match fixing in all kinds of sports at all levels.

Anyway, here is a simple solution that the WTAF could use to avoid tanking in
round robin matches. This kind of situation can only arise in the third round robin
match of each group as people can calculate what needs to happen in order to
get a specific outcome. To prevent them from doing these calculations, I say
schedule the two last RR matches of Red Group at the same time, in different
courts. Similarly schedule the two last RR matches of the White Group at the same
time, in different courts. They are not doing this currently as they do not want
to reduce their income from the ticket sales and also the TV rights. But, I think
they should go for it, to preserve the integrity of the sport, to remove the
temptation from the players and to remove unfair allegations against players
who appear to be tanking but are not really tanking. Note that they only
need to do this for the third RR matches of each group.

In fact, they already use this scheme in the scheduling of last round robin
match in FIFA World Cup Soccer matches since 1982 when a scandal broke out.
Here is the relevant passage from wiki articles.

"A more recent example occurred in the 1982 FIFA World Cup, West Germany played Austria in the last match of group B. A West German victory by 1 or 2 goals would result in both teams advancing; any less and Germany was out; any more and Austria was out (and replaced by Algeria, who had just beaten Chile). West Germany attacked hard and scored after 10 minutes. Afterwards, the players then proceeded to just kick the ball around aimlessly for the remainder of the match. Algerian supporters were so angered that they waved banknotes at the players, while a German fan burned his German flag in disgust.[14] By the second half, the ARD commentator Eberhard Stanjek refused any further comment on the game, while the Austrian television commentator Robert Seeger advised viewers to switch off their sets. As a result, FIFA changed its tournament scheduling for subsequent World Cups so that the final pair of matches in each group are played simultaneously."

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

^ I totally disagree with you comments about being in the elite Top 8 players of the world
You missed my point in regards to that question

Show me the evidence that Halep would tank a match in the first place,or it would have come into her mind to do such a thing?

As I have stated.To me anyone that suggested Halep would tank a match at the YEC I find it a tasteless and offensive remark to begin with.

I have seen first hand the implications when a player at the Sydney tournament a few years back was investigated for' Tanking'....that player was on the ATP his name was Gilbus.

End of conversation for me on this subject.Period.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

1. You are naming specific players. You should provide some kind of link to it when you
indulging in naming specific players.

2. I don't know whether you are reading my posts or not. I never said Halep will tank.
I was only discussing the fact that it is strategically good for her to tank it.
I never made it personal about Halep in the discussion and the same comments
apply even if it were some other player.

3. Also, the other only said positive things about Kuzzy (that she did not tank)
and not negative things.

4. You seem to have the feeling that just because a player is in top 10, they would
not try to indulge in tanking. Let me give you an analogy. You are sitting in
a corner of an airport waiting lounge. You notice that there is a brief case
with lot of cold cash. Nobody is around. No name or anything written on the
brief case. You could either take it and use it, no one will notice or you could
hand it over to the authorities. What will someone do in that situation?
Your answer seems to be that it depends on their net worth. If they are
rich, they will do the right thing and hand it over to the authorities and if
they are poor, they will grab it. I totally disagree with it. The actions here
depends not on the net worth of the person, but depends on what values
and principles they have. It is completely possible that a manual laborer
who makes minimum wages might return the brief case to the authorities
while the CEO of a multinational company might take it with him.
It is the same situation here. Just because somebody is in top 10 and
are an elite player is no guarantee that they will not indulge in tanking.

5. Basically, system should be designed so that there is NO incentive for tanking
instead of relying on the "goodness" of the elite players. As I suggested
in my previous post, both the ATP and WTA should consider scheduling
the last two round robin matches of each group at exactly the same
time in different courts. That would fix the problem. However, knowing
that the ATP and WTA administrators neither care for the sport, nor
for the players (they only care for money), I am completely confident
that they will not do this. Besides, it would be too logical for them.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Yes I should not have disclosed Gilbus name in regards to tanking at the Sydney tournament a few years back.That was unprofessional from me.

 

[the AntiPusher]

The rules need to be changed, What do you think Maria Sharapova would have done if she had the same option or opportunity to tank to eliminate Serena:blush:

 

[Kieran]

The rules need to be changed, What do you think Maria Sharapova would have done if she had the same option or opportunity to tank to eliminate Serena:blush:

Why would Sharapova want to avoid Serena Williams? :snigger

 

[faradubii]

Anyway, here is a simple solution that the WTAF could use to avoid tanking in
round robin matches. This kind of situation can only arise in the third round robin
match of each group as people can calculate what needs to happen in order to
get a specific outcome. To prevent them from doing these calculations, I say
schedule the two last RR matches of Red Group at the same time, in different
courts. Similarly schedule the two last RR matches of the White Group at the same
time, in different courts.

I'm not sure if you mean it like this but I would say all 4 last matches need to happen at the same time no matter the groups. Playing the last 2 matches in say Red group, after the white group is done could make things even more dishonest, players going for 2nd place if they know the 2nd place of White group nd they don't like it. Problem is loss of revenue, not to mention we, as TV spectators, would find ourselves in the crappy position to switch through 4 simultaneous matches. Ethically this is the only solution: 4 last matches same time. Practically it will never happen.
On the other hand, the current solution is good for these forums and the discussions it starts. Also in some measure it can show the player's good character. The bad character would be very tricky though to prove. (Note that for example, if Halep would've lost in 2 sets to Ana, there's no way to prove she didn't make her best efforts. It would've been a completely subjective discussion between fans, with angry and crazy posts. Winning that 2nd set basically shows her Ethics are strong.)

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Faradubii, your contention is also valid. When one group is finished, often a player in the
group who has a chance to win it outright might not want to do so, if they prefer to play the
winner of the other group as opposed to the runner-up of the other group. So, as you
suggest they may need to schedule all four matches simultaneously. That would be a
highly impractical suggestion.

Hence, I have a better solution. In this one no two matches need to be scheduled
simultaneously. Basically, get rid of the semifinals in the WTAF tournament. As before
invite 8 players and form two groups of 4 each. Let each player play all other players
from the same group as before. The winner of each group advances to the finals.
The semifinal stage is eliminated. The winner of each group is determined based on
matches won; if tied on this, based on % of sets won; if tied on that based on % of
games won (if only two players are tied, based on the result of the match between
them). So, basically everything as before, except that the semifinals is eliminated.

Now, obviously there is no incentive for any player to tank any match in the
round robin. There is only one player who can advance from the group. To ensure
that you are that player you want to win every match and also as efficiently
as you could. No "scheming", either to tank a match or to drop a set is in the
personal interest of any player, no matter how cunning and corrupt they may be.

As for the point system, give 250 points for each match won in the round robin
and 750 points for the finals, so that an undefeated champion gets 1500 points.
I am not in favor of giving points to the loser of matches, but if felt necessary,
you can give 50 points for losing each RR match.

The beauty of this scheme is that no two matches need to be simultaneously
scheduled. The WTA would be happy as they can make lots of money both through
selling TV rights and tickets. The advertisers of commercials would be happy that
all tennis watchers will be seeing them as opposed to split audience. The fans will
be happy that they get to see all matches live.

 

[the AntiPusher]

The rules need to be changed, What do you think Maria Sharapova would have done if she had the same option or opportunity to tank to eliminate Serena:blush:

Why would Sharapova want to avoid Serena Williams? :snigger

hey. Fashionista.. I hurt.. u liked Kirean post but not mine:speechless::laydownlaughing

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

The rules need to be changed, What do you think Maria Sharapova would have done if she had the same option or opportunity to tank to eliminate Serena:blush:

Why would Sharapova want to avoid Serena Williams? :snigger

hey. Fashionista.. I hurt.. u liked Kirean post but not mine:speechless::laydownlaughing

You are a fellow Rafa fan,so I do take that into consideration..

Kirean and I are kind of joined at the hip,if you know what I mean.....

 

[GameSetAndMath]

There is an article in tennis.com hailing halep for her non-gameswomanship.

When I was googling around, I got this on Simona tanking

I am really not thrilled by Davenport's suggestion in that article.:nono

I am in full agreement with Davenport's suggestion.

Look at it this way. Don't players often tank a set in a 5-set match when they are trailing so that
they can save more energy for the next set instead of wasting energy in the current set that is
unwinnable. Would you call that unsportsmanlike conduct? No, most people would call that
a good strategy.

It is the same thing here. Why should Simona spend so much time and energy playing in a
long meaningless three set match when she can conserve energy for the all important
semifinal match that is being played the very next day.

Even forgetting the useful by product of getting rid of Serena, it makes sense for her not
to try so hard in an meaningless match to conserve energy.

 

[special700]

Who is to say that she would have won the title anyway. She's good at finals either.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Who is to say that she would have won the title anyway. She's good at finals either.

I am not saying she would have won. Actually, I not much of a fan of if and but arguments.

Independent of whether she would have won or lost, it would have made perfect sense
for her not to spend long time in meaningless RR match and try so hard. That is the point,
I am making.

 

[the AntiPusher]

The rules need to be changed, What do you think Maria Sharapova would have done if she had the same option or opportunity to tank to eliminate Serena:blush:

Why would Sharapova want to avoid Serena Williams? :snigger

hey. Fashionista.. I hurt.. u liked Kirean post but not mine:speechless::laydownlaughing

You are a fellow Rafa fan,so I do take that into consideration..

Kirean and I are kind of joined at the hip,if you know what I mean.....

Kieran buddies up with all the ladies.. He thinks he is a player like the Worm:eyepop

 

[kskate2]

Why would Sharapova want to avoid Serena Williams? :snigger

hey. Fashionista.. I hurt.. u liked Kirean post but not mine:speechless::laydownlaughing

You are a fellow Rafa fan,so I do take that into consideration..

Kirean and I are kind of joined at the hip,if you know what I mean.....

Kieran buddies up with all the ladies.. He thinks he is a player like the Worm:eyepop

The key difference being Kieran thinks he is, but Lipps actually is. :lolz:

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Why would Sharapova want to avoid Serena Williams? :snigger

hey. Fashionista.. I hurt.. u liked Kirean post but not mine:speechless::laydownlaughing

You are a fellow Rafa fan,so I do take that into consideration..

Kirean and I are kind of joined at the hip,if you know what I mean.....

Kieran buddies up with all the ladies.. He thinks he is a player like the Worm:eyepop


No I had to have a stern talk with Keiran I have banned him from doing any more Worm Impersonations....

Kieran and I have reached a 'understanding'......