Time to stop talking about Murray being on Djokovic's level.....

GameSetAndMath

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Billie said:
nehmeth said:
Denisovich said:
I think the serve is an important factor here too. Novak's serve is on the whole much better. Murray get's into a ton of trouble on his second.

Nole's serve has certainly come a long way since its 2010 incarnation. :snicker

Nole won more points on his 2nd serve than on his 1st serve (or at least he was winning them the last time I saw the stats on TV). :eyepop How is that even possible??? I know he is not a big server, but when I saw the stats, I wasn't really that upset when he missed his 1st serve, as he was better off his 2nd anyway. I really don't remember if I ever saw a stat like that.:snicker

He did not win more points exactly off the second serve. He had more percentage winning off
the second serve than winning off the first serve. (At some point in the middle of the match
the commentators were saying exactly the same thing you said, but I really doubt it was true
even at some point in the middle of the match).
 

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GameSetAndMath said:
After he loses AO, Andy usually tends to sulk over that and goof up all other tourneys for
the next three or four months. Let us see whether he does it again this year.

He almost certainly will because for some reason he hates Indian Wells and he's nowhere near the other top guys when it comes to the clay whether he's sulking or not.

No reason he can't do well in Miami and any of the ATP 500 tournaments he might play, the likes of Rotterdam, Acapulco or Dubai.
 

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GameSetAndMath said:
Billie said:
nehmeth said:
Nole's serve has certainly come a long way since its 2010 incarnation. :snicker

Nole won more points on his 2nd serve than on his 1st serve (or at least he was winning them the last time I saw the stats on TV). :eyepop How is that even possible??? I know he is not a big server, but when I saw the stats, I wasn't really that upset when he missed his 1st serve, as he was better off his 2nd anyway. I really don't remember if I ever saw a stat like that.:snicker

He did not win more points exactly off the second serve. He had more percentage winning off
the second serve than winning off the first serve
. (At some point in the middle of the match
the commentators were saying exactly the same thing you said, but I really doubt it was true
even at some point in the middle of the match).

Yeah, that is what I meant. I don't think his 1st serve percentage was hot either, so he might have won more points with his 2nd serves anyway. His return was really a big + in today's match.:D
 

calitennis127

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Broken_Shoelace said:
Murray not being on Djokovic's level has been common knowledge for a while, at least around these parts.

Perhaps, but didn't you see what people like huntingyou were saying after the 2013 Wimbledon final? And did you not see what I said about the pre-match "who will win?" poll on ESPN that had the responses split at 50-50? These two are viewed as "highly similar" in a way that almost sounds equivalent much of the time.

Broken_Shoelace said:
Murray has certain limitations that tend to get exposed against certain players on slow to medium courts. Obviously, you conveniently left out Nadal in the talent department in your OP, but one huge difference between him/Federer/Djokovic and Murray is the other 3's abilities to take control with the forehand. Murray's forehand on these courts is just not penetrating enough.

Murray's lack of aggression for the most part, is not simply due to some mental approach to tennis. It is first and foremost a result of his relatively below par forehand.

Sure, but why is his forehand not that great most of the time? Do you think it is a matter of technique (which seems to be what you are implying)? I am talking about the fundamental reasons for why the forehand is subpar, and for that I believe you must turn to mentality and athleticism. Technique is not the problem.

Murray hit some superb forehands at the start of the match, but I think that his lack of explosiveness physically as well as his natural counter-punching mentality ensure that his forehand will not be a dominant shot. Personality and mentality are part of a player's talent, and clearly Murray lacks in this regard when compared to Djokovic, Federer, and, yes, Nadal.
 

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"Slaves of the moment" - brilliant, DarthFed, and very true.

In response to Cali, while I agree that Novak is a significantly greater player than Murray, I think you're cutting Andy down a bit too much to make your point.

Also, in addition to DarthFed's "slaves of the moment" comment, I think part of the reason that people overrate Andy is that for awhile there it really looked like he had joined the big leagues. Starting with the 2012 Olympics, he made to the finals of the next four Slams he played in, winning two of them. By the time he won the 2013 US Open it was looking like Andy was right there with Novak and Rafa. And then he reverted to the Andy we knew and loved from 2008-2011: still a very, very good player but just not there with Novak and Rafa.
 

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I guess I have to read this thread, I have an opinion on this and it's a short one.

One match does not make this the end, lets be honest, Mr. Murray was VERY competitive in 2 of those 4 sets.
 

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Kiu said:
I guess I have to read this thread, I have an opinion on this and it's a short one.

One match does not make this the end, lets be honest, Mr. Murray was VERY competitive in 2 of those 4 sets.

The problem is... loads of players can hang with the big boys for a few sets. Then they get put away comfortably after that. I've always been amused by comparisons between Murray and Djokovic. It's simply not merited by the evidence we see before us.

Murray is clearly better than the rest. People have used that fact to suggest that because he's better than the rest, it means he hangs with the big boys. Sadly there's another obvious conclusion.. he's better than the rest, but no where near as good as the big 3.

Frankly my view even before the semifinals were concluded was that the winner of the Djokovic-Wawrinka semi would probably win the whole thing. Losing to Nole was definitely a better outcome for Murray than if it had been Stan, but I would have put money on Stan..
 

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federberg said:
Kiu said:
I guess I have to read this thread, I have an opinion on this and it's a short one.

One match does not make this the end, lets be honest, Mr. Murray was VERY competitive in 2 of those 4 sets.

The problem is... loads of players can hang with the big boys for a few sets. Then they get put away comfortably after that. I've always been amused by comparisons between Murray and Djokovic. It's simply not merited by the evidence we see before us.

Murray is clearly better than the rest. People have used that fact to suggest that because he's better than the rest, it means he hangs with the big boys. Sadly there's another obvious conclusion.. he's better than the rest, but no where near as good as the big 3.

Frankly my view even before the semifinals were concluded was that the winner of the Djokovic-Wawrinka semi would probably win the whole thing. Losing to Nole was definitely a better outcome for Murray than if it had been Stan, but I would have put money on Stan..

I would say Murray certainly is "nearly as good as the big boys," but that's his problem. He's nearly as good, just not quite as good.

If he truly were "nowhere near as good" he wouldn't have beaten all of them at slams multiple times (maybe he only beat Federer once, I can't remember if he beat him another time, but he beat the other two twice each). Unless we're talking about clay in which case I agree.

Margins are quite small at the top and this is evident in Murray's matches with the big 3 in majors. When they play well, that extra bit of ability they have (whether mental, physical or talent wise) makes a difference. Whether it's Federer putting an attacking clinic against him, Djokovic exposing his forehand and demonstrating overall superior baseline play, or Nadal sailing inside out winners past him, that little bit of extra is why they've beaten him as many times as they have. Conversely, the fact that he's been able to drag their levels down with his tennis IQ and smart tactics, or his occasional out of this world performance (vs. Nadal in AO 2010) shows that he's actually not that far behind them.

Nobody watching his match with Djokovic yesterday, or their 2013 final or especially, their 2012 semi final would think: "Man, Djokovic is miles better than Murray." But you will spot some crucial elements that make a substantial difference. So it's not so much a huge skill discrepancy that is leading to huge result discrepancy. It's more like a slight skill discrepancy leading to huge result discrepancy, if that makes any sense.

However, that nit-picking aside, the big picture of what you're suggesting is pretty much the problem for Murray. He's clearly significantly better than everyone else on a week-to-week basis, but not quite as good as the other three.
 

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BS, in the micro-sense I would agree with you. He's close to them. But in the macro sense. He is no where near them. It's there for all to see. Achievements matter
 

calitennis127

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federberg said:
BS, in the micro-sense I would agree with you. He's close to them. But in the macro sense. He is no where near them. It's there for all to see. Achievements matter


I think there is far more of a difference in the micro sense than you or others like to acknowledge.
 

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calitennis127 said:
federberg said:
BS, in the micro-sense I would agree with you. He's close to them. But in the macro sense. He is no where near them. It's there for all to see. Achievements matter


I think there is far more of a difference in the micro sense than you or others like to acknowledge.

Fair enough. But you must acknowledge that his record against the Big 3 is considerably better than anyone elses. Would be great to see how his win/loss vs the Big 3 ranks in comparison with other top 10 guys, but I'm not that guy to collate data :D
 

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federberg said:
calitennis127 said:
federberg said:
BS, in the micro-sense I would agree with you. He's close to them. But in the macro sense. He is no where near them. It's there for all to see. Achievements matter


I think there is far more of a difference in the micro sense than you or others like to acknowledge.

Fair enough. But you must acknowledge that his record against the Big 3 is considerably better than anyone elses. Would be great to see how his win/loss vs the Big 3 ranks in comparison with other top 10 guys, but I'm not that guy to collate data :D


Well, Raonic is leading the H2H with Muzza, that alone pulls Andy down quite a bit, no?
That is mainly considering Raonic H2H with the big 3.:snicker
 

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^not sure what relevance Raonic's h2h with Murray has? The comparison would be Raonic's h2h versus Rafa/Nole/Roger with Murray's record against the same..
 

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federberg said:
^not sure what relevance Raonic's h2h with Murray has? The comparison would be Raonic's h2h versus Rafa/Nole/Roger with Murray's record against the same..

It is meaningful in terms of Murray is more vulnerable when it comes to rest of the field, than the top 3.
 

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Here are Murray's H2Hs vs the Big Three:

Federer: 11-12
Djokovic: 8-16
Nadal: 5-15

While H2Hs don't tell us everything, I think it is a fairly accurate depiction of how Murray lines up against the other three. My guess is that he has one of the best records against the Big Three, but you can see he's not in their league.

Interesting thing about his match-up with Roger. You'd think that given their 5+ years age difference Roger would have dominated early on and Andy later. But it is actually the opposite: Andy was 6-2 in their first match-ups, 5-10 since. I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on that?
 

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^I think he played Roger in a lot of relatively minor tournaments and did very well. Not sure Roger paid him enough respect. One could even argue that he benefitted from Roger playing so many matches. Whatever.. he beat him fair and square. But when it came to the big stuff, Roger always tended to up his game. As Murray improved and contested him in important matches, Roger tended to win those. Bottom line.. I've always felt (and still do) when it comes to the big matches, Roger has his number
 

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El Dude said:
Here are Murray's H2Hs vs the Big Three:

Federer: 11-12
Djokovic: 8-16
Nadal: 5-15

While H2Hs don't tell us everything, I think it is a fairly accurate depiction of how Murray lines up against the other three. My guess is that he has one of the best records against the Big Three, but you can see he's not in their league.

Interesting thing about his match-up with Roger. You'd think that given their 5+ years age difference Roger would have dominated early on and Andy later. But it is actually the opposite: Andy was 6-2 in their first match-ups, 5-10 since. I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on that?

While not a fan of Roger's, I do admire the adjustments he makes. The guy hates losing and he eventually found his way to beat Murray.

Federberg, it doesn't look as though Roger was losing to Andy in minor tournaments. They were Masters Series events. I'm posting their h2h to check out. :)

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=MC10&oId=F324
 

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nehmeth said:
El Dude said:
Here are Murray's H2Hs vs the Big Three:

Federer: 11-12
Djokovic: 8-16
Nadal: 5-15

While H2Hs don't tell us everything, I think it is a fairly accurate depiction of how Murray lines up against the other three. My guess is that he has one of the best records against the Big Three, but you can see he's not in their league.

Interesting thing about his match-up with Roger. You'd think that given their 5+ years age difference Roger would have dominated early on and Andy later. But it is actually the opposite: Andy was 6-2 in their first match-ups, 5-10 since. I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on that?

While not a fan of Roger's, I do admire the adjustments he makes. The guy hates losing and he eventually found his way to beat Murray.

Federberg, it doesn't look as though Roger was losing to Andy in minor tournaments. They were Masters Series events. I'm posting their h2h to check out. :)

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=MC10&oId=F324

Sorry.. I should have been more clear.. by minor.. I meant NOT slams :)
 

nehmeth

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federberg said:
Sorry.. I should have been more clear.. by minor.. I meant NOT slams :)

Haha! Just because they're not "Majors" doesn't mean the Masters are minor. ;)