Time to crown Novak the GOAT?

El Dude

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You keep insisting that "style" is in there. I don't think it IS the same as competitiveness, in the GOAT debate. If Roger had won absolutely everything he did, and wasn't as "stylish" a player, would that detract from his greatness? I don't see how. Style is subjective, and aesthetic, not quantitatively a thing that wins you matches. Likewise "persona" and "mystique", all in your #3 above. Those add to why a player is popular, but not to why they are great.

It's easy to drag Borg out as a lot of #3, but that does undersell him on #1 and #2, a bit. He walked a way early, so there's a lot of "what if" where he is concerned, but I would say that what Borg's "mystique" really translates as, in terms of greatness was in what he did to change the sport. He was pretty much the first superstar in the men's game, and he brought a level of fitness that was game changing. He won 11 Majors in what was essentially a 10-year career. You don't have to make Borg mysterious or stylish (maybe you mean sexy, in his case, because his 2-handed backhand was hated at the time,) to make him great.

If you want to make your #3 about game-changing, or -influencing, maybe we can talk. There are plenty of players with style, persona and even mystique that really don't even come close to making the list, though. I qu

I quoted you here, Kieran, as a follow-up to my above. If Dude is talking about "aura" in the locker room, it goes hand-in-hand with winning, so it's rather built into all of the winning that goes into qualifying for greatness. If he's talking about amongst the fans, then that's just what we call "popularity."
I'm not insisting that style is in there, that is a factor that should be considered. I'm saying that it is in a third category of intangibles that are sometimes woven into GOAT debates, if only through subconscious influence. Meaning, I'm not saying that they are qualities that make a player great, but are part of the discussion, whether people recognize it consciously or not.
 

El Dude

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Yep.. clever play on words..I give you that...

El Dude...my issues with your analysis is you have Rafa third in this GOAT discussion which is a bit derelict on your part if you just look at one of the most important aspect, H2H.

Well again, my first answer is that there is no singular GOAT, but a herd of GOATs that includes half a dozen or more players.

My second answer is that if I have to choose, I have to lean into career resumes, and make some hard choices. I'd probably pick Laver first, at least as the GOAT of the first century of tennis, and maybe as the most dominant player in all of tennis history. But in terms of Open Era only, I think Novak has the best argument--especially if he adds a bit more--followed by Roger, followed by Rafa. That could change if Rafa resurges one more time, but he'll always have a 100 weeks less at #1, and probably won't get that WTF.

I think another factor that works against Rafa is that none of his seasons are as good as Novak's best two (2011, 2015) or Roger's three or four best (2004-07). A lot of folks like to emphasize peak level, and if we're looking at sustained dominance over the tour as a whole, Novak and Roger rate a bit higher.

I'm not saying that Roger and Novak are greater players than Rafa. I think they are roughly the same, with different qualities of greatness in different contexts that somewhat equalize. This is why I'm glad that, in the end, I don't have to choose, and I can say that I consider them all similarly great - the best three players of the Open Era, and possibly all of tennis history. But if we're talking about greatest player, we have to consider the context in which they played, how dominant they were, and we can't discuss the issue without mention pre-Open Era guys like Bill Tilden and Pancho Gonzales and--for pure peak talent--Ellsworth Vines, Jack Kramer, and Lew Hoad.

I think the main problem, AP, is that you're ignoring any of the nuance I'm emphasizing, and just focusing on what you don't like. It really irks you that I said that if I had to choose, Rafa would be third; but again, that's mostly going on career resumes and, as of this moment, his is slightly inferior to the other two's. But it doesn't just come down to career resumes, as I've said many times. Please try to hear everything I'm saying, not just what you take offense to.
 
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Jelenafan

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@Fiero425 , one thing your post clarified in my mind is that, in a way, this is rather simple. Rod Laver was the GOAT at the time he played. He was better than his best contemporary, Ken Rosewall, and had surpassed Pancho Gonzales, Bill Tilden, and all the other pro greats because of his two calendar year Slams and his overall accomplishments (Laver is also one of only two players, along with Rosewall, who won the "Pro Calendar Slam" of three pro slams).



So my point is, Rod Laver is the GOAT of tennis up through the transition to the Open Era and its first few years. He mastered the amateur, pro, and Open Era tours in a way that no other player did.
Isn't that sort of like saying Connors was the only player to win the USO on 3 different surfaces?

Laver happened to have had the timing that when Open Tennis (1968) started he was the indisputable #1 pro and yes, played incredibly well, at age 30/31 but both Ken Rosewall and Pancho Gonzales it's fair to say were past their salad days by 1968, at ages 34 & 40 respectively. What would have happened if Open tennis started in, say 1953 through 1958 When Pancho was the #1 pro, or in 1962/1963 When Ken Rosewall was the clearly #1 pro. In 1963 his head2head in pro matches with Rod Laver was a whopping 34 to 12 in his favor.

To compare to others:

Bill Tilden never played the Australian Championships. In his greatest years, 1920-21 he hardly lost a match, he won both W and the US Nationals and Davis Cup which was as prestigious and arguably more important to many tennis players. He was barred from playing the French those 2 years because it was then exclusively for French players only. Tilden also for a myriad of reasons didn't play Wimbledon for 4 years when he was acknowledged among the top 2 players in the world. There was no "pro circuit" in the true sense of the word when Bill Tilden left amateur ranks, more a tour of head2head pro matches with other players.

Don Budge had as many Major wins in the amateur era has Laver did, winning also the CYGS and was the top ranked amateur 2 straight years, something Rod Laver didn't do in his amateur career (Roy Emerson was the top amateur 1960-61). Plus Don Budge is the only amateur player to win 6 Straight Majors.

By the late 40's through the 50's there was a fully organized Pro Tour with Major Pro tournaments. Jack Kramer was instrumental in making a cohesive pro tour.

Again, it was the nature of the eras. Rod Laver Winning the 1962 Grand Slam while an amateur , OK, impressive, but by then Ken Rosewall was clearly the top professional and excluded from playing.

But if you count Laver's Amateur Grand Slam as "legit" , what about Roy Emerson's 13 Majors, they do not count?

That Laver straddled the amateur, exclusive pro circuit and then the Open era is true, but he was clearly not indisputably the greatest amateur player (Tilden had more years at the top, Budge more sheer domination, etc) nor the greatest Pro player (Both Ken Rodwalls and Pancho Gonzales IMO had more impressive pro careers)

Rod Laver was the top pro in the Open Era, for, what, 2 years? (1968-69). Granted he won the Grand Slam for one of those years. He was the top amateur tennis player for one year (1962) , granted again he won the Grand Slam for that sole year. The much maligned Roy Emerson bested him in 2 Major finals in 1961.

IN the exclusive pro circuit, Rod Laver was the top player for 65-67. So in total he was the top player in 3 eras a total of 6 years. I still think of 1965 one could argue Rosewall as the top pro.

This isn't done to denigrate Rod Laver, who is an all time great and a GOAT contender, but simply to point out how difficult it is to compare different eras as far as results.
 
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the AntiPusher

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Well again, my first answer is that there is no singular GOAT, but a herd of GOATs that includes half a dozen or more players.

My second answer is that if I have to choose, I have to lean into career resumes, and make some hard choices. I'd probably pick Laver first, at least as the GOAT of the first century of tennis, and maybe as the most dominant player in all of tennis history. But in terms of Open Era only, I think Novak has the best argument--especially if he adds a bit more--followed by Roger, followed by Rafa. That could change if Rafa resurges one more time, but he'll always have a 100 weeks less at #1, and probably won't get that WTF.

I think another factor that works against Rafa is that none of his seasons are as good as Novak's best two (2011, 2015) or Roger's three or four best (2004-07). A lot of folks like to emphasize peak level, and if we're looking at sustained dominance over the tour as a whole, Novak and Roger rate a bit higher.

I'm not saying that Roger and Novak are greater players than Rafa. I think they are roughly the same, with different qualities of greatness in different contexts that somewhat equalize. This is why I'm glad that, in the end, I don't have to choose, and I can say that I consider them all similarly great - the best three players of the Open Era, and possibly all of tennis history. But if we're talking about greatest player, we have to consider the context in which they played, how dominant they were, and we can't discuss the issue without mention pre-Open Era guys like Bill Tilden and Pancho Gonzales and--for pure peak talent--Ellsworth Vines, Jack Kramer, and Lew Hoad.

I think the main problem, AP, is that you're ignoring any of the nuance I'm emphasizing, and just focusing on what you don't like. It really irks you that I said that if I had to choose, Rafa would be third; but again, that's mostly going on career resumes and, as of this moment, his is slightly inferior to the other two's. But it doesn't just come down to career resumes, as I've said many times. Please try to hear everything I'm saying, not just what you take offense to.
I definitely trying to listen to your points, I'm truly am. Your stats are valid which focuses on the total victories in a given season. Roger and Novak's numbers are legendary but Novak's numbers come at the end of Roger's prime. It's just that simple. El Dude I appreciate your patience and I know I have been harsh. I truly believe that if you ask Roger for his honest evaluation. He would either put Rafa next to him or ahead but definitely not third. IMO

Take care and keep up the good posting.

AP
 

El Dude

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Isn't that sort of like saying Connors was the only player to win the USO on 3 different surfaces?

Laver happened to have had the timing that when Open Tennis (1968) started he was the indisputable #1 pro and yes, played incredibly well, at age 30/31 but both Ken Rosewall and Pancho Gonzales it's fair to say were past their salad days by 1968, at ages 34 & 40 respectively. What would have happened if Open tennis started in, say 1953 through 1958 When Pancho was the #1 pro, or in 1962/1963 When Ken Rosewall was the clearly #1 pro. In 1963 his head2head in pro matches with Rod Laver was a whopping 34 to 12 in his favor.

To compare to others:

Bill Tilden never played the Australian Championships. In his greatest years, 1920-21 he hardly lost a match, he won both W and the US Nationals and Davis Cup which was as prestigious and arguably more important to many tennis players. He was barred from playing the French those 2 years because it was then exclusively for French players only. Tilden also for a myriad of reasons didn't play Wimbledon for 4 years when he was acknowledged among the top 2 players in the world. There was no "pro circuit" in the true sense of the word when Bill Tilden left amateur ranks, more a tour of head2head pro matches with other players.

Don Budge had as many Major wins in the amateur era has Laver did, winning also the CYGS and was the top ranked amateur 2 straight years, something Rod Laver didn't do in his amateur career (Roy Emerson was the top amateur 1960-61). Plus Don Budge is the only amateur player to win 6 Straight Majors.

By the late 40's through the 50's there was a fully organized Pro Tour with Major Pro tournaments. Jack Kramer was instrumental in making a cohesive pro tour.

Again, it was the nature of the eras. Rod Laver Winning the 1962 Grand Slam while an amateur , OK, impressive, but by then Ken Rosewall was clearly the top professional and excluded from playing.

But if you count Laver's Amateur Grand Slam as "legit" , what about Roy Emerson's 13 Majors, they do not count?

That Laver straddled the amateur, exclusive pro circuit and then the Open era is true, but he was clearly not indisputably the greatest amateur player (Tilden had more years at the top, Budge more sheer domination, etc) nor the greatest Pro player (Both Ken Rodwalls and Pancho Gonzales IMO had more impressive pro careers)

Rod Laver was the top pro in the Open Era, for, what, 2 years? (1968-69). Granted he won the Grand Slam for one of those years. He was the top amateur tennis player for one year (1962) , granted again he won the Grand Slam for that sole year. The much maligned Roy Emerson bested him in 2 Major finals in 1961.

IN the exclusive pro circuit, Rod Laver was the top player for 65-67. So in total he was the top player in 3 eras a total of 6 years. I still think of 1965 one could argue Rosewall as the top pro.

This isn't done to denigrate Rod Laver, who is an all time great and a GOAT contender, but simply to point out how difficult it is to compare different eras as far as results.
Nice post. A lot to touch upon. As you know, comparing across eras is problematic. I personally don't think that Laver's 1962 AGS is nearly as impressive as his 1969 Open one, but impressive nonetheless.

Emerson is often overrated, but easily underrated. 12 Amateur Slams is still very impressive. I haven't looked into it too closely, but I think he probably belongs in the general category with Edberg/Becker/Newcombe, but below Agassi/Lendl/Connors/McEnroe. Maybe even arguably closer to Vilas/Nastase. But who knows.

Ultimate Tennis Statistics has Laver as #1 through 1971. Even though he was barely playing Slams after 1969, he won 13 titles in 1970 and 5-7 a year through 1975, the last year he finished in the top 10. In both 70 and 71 he won the Tennis Champions Classic, which was basically an alternate tour final, and in 1970 a whopping six Masters equivalents. He was, overall, the best player of the 1960s, just as Gonzales was the best player of the 1950s. The 1930s and 40s didn't have clear best players, with Tilden, Vines, Budge, Riggs and Kramer all sharing the spotlight, although it sounds like Kramer had the highest level. The 20s would have to go to Tilden, who in a way transitioned tennis into the pro era, with the earlier years dominated by players like the two Dohertys, Josiah Ritchie, Anthony Wilding (who died in WWI while probably the top player in the world).

But it is sketchy enough to compare pro/amateur era players to the Open Era, even more problematic before the pro tour started in 1927. So really we have three major Eras: The Early Years (1877-1926), Pro/Amateur Era (1927-68), and Open Era (1968-present).

So was Laver the best player of that second era? I think so. Or, at least, he shares the top spot with Gonzales, as both combined longevity with dominance. Tilden and Rosewall were great and even more impressive in terms of longevity, but not quite the dominance. Vines and Kramer were similarly dominant, but for shorter periods of time. Hoad is interesting too. Budge belongs in the conversation probably.

According to this page, Gonzales is the only one to be world number one eight times, although only five were undisputed, three shared with others.

Renshaw, Tilden, Laver, and Djokovic seven times each, although each with at least one disputed (e.g. they give Djokovic a shared number one with Rafa in 2013; I think that belongs to Rafa).

R Doherty, Rosewall, Sampras six years each, although all of Doherty's are disputed, and half of Rosewall's.

For five years, you've got L Doherty, Larned, Pim, Vines, Budge, Kramer, Federer, and Nadal.

Anyhow, I'm dabbling with a "Dominance Metric" that tries to determine the most dominant player in a given year. It is very simple, but I think does a good job, at least in the Open Era. I'll try to apply it to at least the pro/amateur era. It re-arranges the #1s a bit, though, but not too much. I'll share it at some point soon.
 

Ricardo

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Renshaw, Tilden, Laver, and Djokovic seven times each, although each with at least one disputed (e.g. they give Djokovic a shared number one with Rafa in 2013; I think that belongs to Rafa).
2013 is not disputed, it belongs to Rafa. No 1 ranking, 2 Slams and 5 ms1000 vs Djokers 1 slam and 3 ms1000 says it ALL. The list is worthless if they fail to recognize that fact, it’s absolutely baseless to even call it ‘disputed’.
 

Moxie

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I'm not insisting that style is in there, that is a factor that should be considered. I'm saying that it is in a third category of intangibles that are sometimes woven into GOAT debates, if only through subconscious influence. Meaning, I'm not saying that they are qualities that make a player great, but are part of the discussion, whether people recognize it consciously or not.
I don't think it's especially "subconscious" that those factors you call "intangibles" influence the way people feel about players. But I think they have more to do with why fans choose favorites than what makes a player great. And I discount them somewhat because they are so subjective, and not readily agreed upon. As an example, @Kieran has often waxed poetic on what a dominant pugilist Pete was (and whatever all the features that made K a fan,) whereas I only ever found his game boring. I know you endeavor to be dispassionate as possible in this debate, and you do a good job, but maybe "subconsciously" you put "style" in there, because so many people give Roger big style points. (And I admit it's a pretty game.) However, so many Roger and now some Djokovic fans like to declare that Rafa's game is "ugly." Well, we fans find it thrilling. So there's that. As to "aura," I did make the distinction between awe in the locker room and "aura" for fans, but you may have missed that. I think the locker room version is the only one that matters, and it does fade. I think it may win first sets, but it's the talent that finishes the match. Even our friend @mrzz said he saw Rafa live in São Paulo, and said what a bad-ass he comes off as on court and up-close, but you still have to win your match. I honestly think a better #3 for "intangibles" would be impact/influence on the game, if you want intangibles. @Jelenafan's above is so interesting vis-a-vis Laver is so interesting, as you rightly acknowledge, and it's just sticking with the facts. In my personal opinion, throwing things like "style" and "aura" in there are too vague to be considered. They are fan reasons, IMO, and they just cloud the water.
 

El Dude

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2013 is not disputed, it belongs to Rafa. No 1 ranking, 2 Slams and 5 ms1000 vs Djokers 1 slam and 3 ms1000 says it ALL. The list is worthless if they fail to recognize that fact, it’s absolutely baseless to even call it ‘disputed’.
Don't shoot the messenger. As I said, I think Rafa was the best that year overall, but the ITF disagreed because Novak did better in Slams.

The one I think belongs to Roger is 2017, when he was the best player on tour. Again, I'm not talking about rankings and ATP points, but overall excellence.
 

El Dude

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I don't think it's especially "subconscious" that those factors you call "intangibles" influence the way people feel about players. But I think they have more to do with why fans choose favorites than what makes a player great. And I discount them somewhat because they are so subjective, and not readily agreed upon. As an example, @Kieran has often waxed poetic on what a dominant pugilist Pete was (and whatever all the features that made K a fan,) whereas I only ever found his game boring. I know you endeavor to be dispassionate as possible in this debate, and you do a good job, but maybe "subconsciously" you put "style" in there, because so many people give Roger big style points. (And I admit it's a pretty game.) However, so many Roger and now some Djokovic fans like to declare that Rafa's game is "ugly." Well, we fans find it thrilling. So there's that. As to "aura," I did make the distinction between awe in the locker room and "aura" for fans, but you may have missed that. I think the locker room version is the only one that matters, and it does fade. I think it may win first sets, but it's the talent that finishes the match. Even our friend @mrzz said he saw Rafa live in São Paulo, and said what a bad-ass he comes off as on court and up-close, but you still have to win your match. I honestly think a better #3 for "intangibles" would be impact/influence on the game, if you want intangibles. @Jelenafan's above is so interesting vis-a-vis Laver is so interesting, as you rightly acknowledge, and it's just sticking with the facts. In my personal opinion, throwing things like "style" and "aura" in there are too vague to be considered. They are fan reasons, IMO, and they just cloud the water.
Well, I as defending the honorable @britbox 's "style GOAT" comment.

But I agree, and would take it further: we don't choose our favorites, they choose us. I'm an Angels fan and at one point during the awful 90s I tried--and failed--to like a better team. It didn't work, and I've accepted my fate.

I love watching Rafa play - I wouldn't say his game is "ugly," but aggressive and powerful. Where Roger is a Renaissance duelist with a rapier, Rafa is a samurai. Quick and deadly.

I like your #3, and generally agree re: style and aura. I just think they influence us, and britbox--as far as I understood him--wasn't saying that Roger is the GOAT because of his style, but that he stands alone as far as style is concerned. That is, of course, a subjective statement, but not without merit.

If we want to give Roger a GOAT quality that is more substantial, we could say he's the "skills GOAT." He can do more things with a tennis racket and on court than any player that I've ever seen. The correlation would be Rafa being the "competitor GOAT," and Novak being the "defense GOAT." Or something like that.
 

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Well, I as defending the honorable @britbox 's "style GOAT" comment.

But I agree, and would take it further: we don't choose our favorites, they choose us. I'm an Angels fan and at one point during the awful 90s I tried--and failed--to like a better team. It didn't work, and I've accepted my fate.

I love watching Rafa play - I wouldn't say his game is "ugly," but aggressive and powerful. Where Roger is a Renaissance duelist with a rapier, Rafa is a samurai. Quick and deadly.
I know you were defending the Baron, but his post was uncharacteristically fannish, and pretty transparent. He called Novak the GOAT "technically," Roger the GOAT "stylistically," and then he said he didn't know where to put Rafa, though "maybe" the clay GOAT. Aside from the ridiculous and obvious slight of Rafa, if I were a Novak fan, I'd be offended by "technically." It's a completely fannish statement. And I don't see why you need to defend it, or buy into it.

I'm not sure I agree that we don't choose our favorites. I think we do, especially in tennis, where we're not pegged geographically. However, I do agree that the choices are emotional and not always with rational justification. We can all appreciate certain players, but when we fall in love with one, that's a gut thing. But, in tennis, it is very personal, and not the same as buying into a team.
I like your #3, and generally agree re: style and aura. I just think they influence us, and britbox--as far as I understood him--wasn't saying that Roger is the GOAT because of his style, but that he stands alone as far as style is concerned. That is, of course, a subjective statement, but not without merit.

If we want to give Roger a GOAT quality that is more substantial, we could say he's the "skills GOAT." He can do more things with a tennis racket and on court than any player that I've ever seen. The correlation would be Rafa being the "competitor GOAT," and Novak being the "defense GOAT." Or something like that.
I appreciate your interest in my #3. Though it is really hard to wrest away from you the notion of Roger and "style." I will agree with you that he has a large amount in the way of "skills", though, and this is worth putting on the pile. We have all long acknowledged that he has a lot of tools in the tool shed. This is a more concrete thing that can be said of his talents, since "stylish" is subjective. I do think you're reaching a bit for an answer, though, when you say that Nadal is the "competitive Goat" and Djokovic the defensive one. I think everyone would give Nadal "competitiveness," and probably intensity. But remember how much everyone claimed for years that Nadal's fortunes were made, rightly or wrongly, on his defensive game. Is Novak a better defender? Is not Novak intense when he's in what everyone calls "lock-down mode?" It's not that simple, and you obviously understand that. Which is why you campaign for a 3-headed GOAT. And which I agree with.

If I were to make a #3 about game-changing, I would say that the Federer-Nadal rivalry is in there. It put a focus on tennis that transcended tennis. And I don't think that the addition of Djokovic had the same effect. Their influence on the game was also monetary. Same as with Borg. And those guys had an affect on playing style. Borg's success with the 2-hander I would say probably had the single biggest influence on the 1-hander falling more out of fashion. And Nadal's whip-FH and spin speed has also had an influence. 15 years ago, no one even approached Rafa's spin speed on the FH. Now others pass him, even while they don't employ it as well. To go back to Laver, his straddling Pro/Am and Open eras is a measure of his greatness. He was, if not game-changing, at least game-adapting better than anyone else in the crazy years of the 60s.
 
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El Dude

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I know you were defending the Baron, but his post was uncharacteristically fannish, and pretty transparent. He called Novak the GOAT "technically," Roger the GOAT "stylistically," and then he said he didn't know where to put Rafa, though "maybe" the clay GOAT. Aside from the ridiculous and obvious slight of Rafa, if I were a Novak fan, I'd be offended by "technically." It's a completely fannish statement. And I don't see why you need to defend it, or buy into it.

I'm not sure I agree that we don't choose our favorites. I think we do, especially in tennis, where we're not pegged geographically. However, I do agree that the choices are emotional and not always with rational justification. We can all appreciate certain players, but when we fall in love with one, that's a gut thing. But, in tennis, it is very personal, and not the same as buying into a team.

I appreciate your interest in my #3. Though it is really hard to wrest away from you the notion of Roger and "style." I will agree with you that he has a large amount in the way of "skills", though, and this is worth putting on the pile. We have all long acknowledged that he has a lot of tools in the tool shed. This is a more concrete thing that can be said of his talents, since "stylish" is subjective. I do think you're reaching a bit for an answer, though, when you say that Nadal is the "competitive Goat" and Djokovic the defensive one. I think everyone would give Nadal "competitiveness," and probably intensity. But remember how much everyone claimed for years that Nadal's fortunes were made, rightly or wrongly, on his defensive game. Is Novak a better defender? Is not Novak intense when he's in what everyone calls "lock-down mode?" It's not that simple, and you obviously understand that. Which is why you campaign for a 3-headed GOAT. And which I agree with.

If I were to make a #3 about game-changing, I would say that the Federer-Nadal rivalry is in there. It put a focus on tennis that transcended tennis. And I don't think that the addition of Djokovic had the same effect. Their influence on the game was also monetary. Same as with Borg. And those guys had an affect on playing style. Borg's success with the 2-hander I would say probably had the single biggest influence on the 1-hander falling more out of fashion. And Nadal's whip-FH and spin speed has also had an influence. 15 years ago, no one even approached Rafa's spin speed on the FH. Now others pass him, even while they don't employ it as well. To go back to Laver, his straddling Pro/Am and Open eras is a measure of his greatness. He was, if not game-changing, at least game-adapting better than anyone else in the crazy years of the 60s.
Laver did something no one else did: he mastered the amateur tour, then the pro, then the Open Era. Rosewall did the first two, and was good in the Open Era, but he wasn't dominant, just one of the better players of the first few years, closer to Newcombe in level.

To some degree, Laver just happened to be the right age, for certain if Pancho was ten years younger, he'd have been formidable in the first few years of the Open Era, but it still holds a strong legacy element.

One angle on comparing the Big Three is isolating what each of them does better than anyone else. For Roger, it is his finesse and diverse skill set, I think. I just don't think any player has produced as many "wow" moments. This isn't a slight on Rafa or Novak, just the nature of Roger's game, that he has such a diverse tool-set to draw from. For Rafa, it is his indomitable will and competitiveness. How many times has he pushed through any obstacle, and forced victory through his fighting spirit? For Novak, it is probably his "lockdown defense,' or perhaps his ability to calibrate to the level of his competition and just play better enough to win.

All three have just about every quality of greatness in spades, but I don't think it is a slight on the other to to point out the special excellence of one of them.

I hear you about the legacy of Fedal, certainly on the level of mass appeal. It was probably the "sexiest" rivalry since Borg-McEnroe, which in my mind is still unsurpassed. But Novak's legacy has to be the fact that he's the one who took over from Fedal. I know, Rafa had dominance mixed in, even Federer a bit, and Fed fans can claim that Novak took over after Roger was past his very best. But for the last ten years, Novak has set the bar - he's been the player to beat. Rafa, Roger, Andy, and Stan have had their moments of equaling him, but it has always come back to Novak who, like the Dude (Big Lebowski), abides.

Hopefully that's changing, though! Not a slight on Novak, but I'm kind of tired of this era and ready to see the young guys take over. As you know, I think it is clearly happening, just a bit slower than hoped for.
 
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the AntiPusher

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Laver did something no one else did: he mastered the amateur tour, then the pro, then the Open Era. Rosewall did the first two, and was good in the Open Era, but he wasn't dominant, just one of the better players of the first few years, closer to Newcombe in level.

To some degree, Laver just happened to be the right age, for certain if Pancho was ten years younger, he'd have been formidable in the first few years of the Open Era, but it still holds a strong legacy element.

One angle on comparing the Big Three is isolating what each of them does better than anyone else. For Roger, it is his finesse and diverse skill set, I think. I just don't think any player has produced as many "wow" moments. This isn't a slight on Rafa or Novak, just the nature of Roger's game, that he has such a diverse tool-set to draw from. For Rafa, it is his indomitable will and competitiveness. How many times has he pushed through any obstacle, and forced victory through his fighting spirit? For Novak, it is probably his "lockdown defense,' or perhaps his ability to calibrate to the level of his competition and just play better enough to win.

All three have just about every quality of greatness in spades, but I don't think it is a slight on the other to to point out the special excellence of one of them.

I hear you about the legacy of Fedal, certainly on the level of mass appeal. It was probably the "sexiest" rivalry since Borg-McEnroe, which in my mind is still unsurpassed. But Novak's legacy has to be the fact that he's the one who took over from Fedal. I know, Rafa had dominance mixed in, even Federer a bit, and Fed fans can claim that Novak took over after Roger was past his very best. But for the last ten years, Novak has set the bar - he's been the player to beat. Rafa, Roger, Andy, and Stan have had their moments of equaling him, but it has always come back to Novak who, like the Dude (Big Lebowski), abides.

Hopefully that's changing, though! Not a slight on Novak, but I'm kind of tired of this era and ready to see the young guys take over. As you know, I think it is clearly happening, just a bit slower than hoped for.
Maybe I am reading this post incorrectly. I have watched over 200 Rafa and Novak matches against other players. There's no way that Novak's defense is on a different par than Rafa's defense.
 
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El Dude

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Maybe I am reading this post incorrectly. I have watched over 200 Rafa and Novak matches against other players. There's no way that Novak's defense is on a different par than Rafa's defense.
Let me ask you: In what ways does Djokovic excel above all others? What is he better at than Rafa, Roger, and everyone else?
 
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the AntiPusher

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Let me ask you: In what ways does Djokovic excel above all others? What is he better at than Rafa, Roger, and everyone else?
Novak's ball striking is better than Rafa's and especially Roger from the BH. Novak's baseline game is better than Roger's and slightly better than Rafa's. Novak's return of service is better than the other two.
 

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2013 is not disputed, it belongs to Rafa. No 1 ranking, 2 Slams and 5 ms1000 vs Djokers 1 slam and 3 ms1000 says it ALL. The list is worthless if they fail to recognize that fact, it’s absolutely baseless to even call it ‘disputed’.

I'm not a dulltard by any stretch but 2013 belonged to dull. LOL@calling it disputed.

2012 - disputed - edge to Fed
2013 - dull
2014 - disputed - edge to faker
2017 - edge to Fed

The other years are pretty obvious
 

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What's funny is that crocodilovic tards are hyping up DCGS when it's not some GOAT metric. Once you did the CGS you were good. Doing it more than once gets it added to the list of trivia. It's like dulltards hyping up Olympics when it doesn't matter for tennis. So it's hilarious how croctards are now trying to downplay the CYGS because faker shriveled like a raisin when it was in touching distance.
 
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the AntiPusher

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I know it's a long shot but AO 2022 is going to give Rafa a chance to solidify his claimed to the GOAT.. Another RG will not mean anything but he is the greatest tennis player to play on that surface. IMO.
 
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Fiero425

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Novak's ball striking is better than Rafa's and especially Roger from the BH. Novak's baseline game is better than Roger's and slightly better than Rafa's. Novak's return of service is better than the other two.
It could be my partiality or bad eye-sight, but Novak's defense is the best IMO! He gets to balls the others wouldn't even try for and hits clean winners off of his "gets!" You can say all 3 can do that, but IMO Novak does it more and the best; esp. scrambling forward to knock off dropshots hit against him! With Rafa, at times I feel it's more about the racket and surface; some very accidental shot winners! :face-with-hand-over-mouth: :good::-)2
 

the AntiPusher

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It could be my partiality or bad eye-sight, but Novak's defense is the best IMO! He gets to balls the others wouldn't even try for and hits clean winners off of his "gets!" You can say all 3 can do that, but IMO Novak does it more and the best; esp. scrambling forward to knock off dropshots hit against him! With Rafa, at times I feel it's more about the racket and surface; some very accidental shot winners! :face-with-hand-over-mouth: :good::-)2
Fiero. Just go watch Madrid 2009..semi Rafa vs Novak..then tell me what you think