Time to crown Novak the GOAT?

[tennisville]

Uncle Bob next door finds Mecir the most appealing. So? Majority find Federer's game the most appealing and you'll have to learn to deal with it.

The main point is that Roger Federer combines both popularity and success along with playing positive tennis. Faker plays negative pusher tennis which is disgusting to watch and his universally disliked and more hated than even Nadal let alone Federer.

Now if you REALLY want to go into numbers ONLY and strawman the entire GOAT debate as it clearly suits your agenda, faker's stats are inflated. He has had NO ATG challenger to beat him when he plays utter shit tennis like he did against Shapovalov and against Fritz at AO, Musetti and RG and on and on it goes in every bloody slam. So even your "only numbers" matter spiel can be EASILY debunked!

Tennis Channel had Laver at #2 and Fed at #1. Why would they rank him ahead of Pete if only numbers matter? Surely tennis channel knows more than you?

Tennis Magazine ranked Sampras as no 1 in 2005.

I genuinely found it surprising how Laver gained in the rankings from 2005 to 2018 despite neither him nor Sampras playing a single tennis match in that period. So yeah I don't give them credibility, to be honest. The only change in the rankings from 2005 to 2018 must include active players if they were consistant

 

[monfed]

Tennis Magazine ranked Sampras as no 1 in 2005.

I genuinely found it surprising how Laver gained in the rankings from 2005 to 2018 despite neither him nor Sampras playing a single tennis match in that period. So yeah I don't give them credibility, to be honest. The only change in the rankings from 2005 to 2018 must include active players if they were consistant

Tennis channel was a far wider poll spanning experts from a broader spectrum than "Tennis Magazine". WTF is tennis magazine anyway? I bet noone has even heard of this mag. I certainly havent till you brought it up.

But the main point is that you were triggered by Rolex's AD because you're insecure about faker's greatness. If an AD can trigger you this much then actual tennis arguments will knock your block off.

You don't see Fed fans pulling some AD out of the web and talking down faker's greatness.

 

[tennisville]

Tennis channel was a far wider poll spanning experts from a broader spectrum than "Tennis Magazine". WTF is tennis magazine anyway? I bet noone has even heard of this mag. I certainly havent till you brought it up.

But the main point is that you were triggered by Rolex's AD because you're insecure about faker's greatness. If an AD can trigger you this much then actual tennis arguments will knock your block off.

You don't see Fed fans pulling some AD out of the web and talking down faker's greatness.

By the way, I am not triggered by the ad. I just find it funny that a Rolex ad in 2009 was all about numbers and in 2021 they mention that numbers dont matter. I am laughing that they aren't even consistent with what they said about 10 years ago. The fact that they are mentioning that numbers dont matter and changing their narrative should tell you who is winning the debate

Also Federer fans have been brutal to Djokovic in his ads, just go and see twitter for their cruel reactions

 

[Fiero425]

Tennis Magazine ranked Sampras as no 1 in 2005.

I genuinely found it surprising how Laver gained in the rankings from 2005 to 2018 despite neither him nor Sampras playing a single tennis match in that period. So yeah I don't give them credibility, to be honest. The only change in the rankings from 2005 to 2018 must include active players if they were consistant

When society ranks past accomplishments, it's more about opinion and those always change over time! I was ready to proclaim Sampras the BOAT/GOAT even without a FO final! Now that we've had 3 players surpass him with little trouble, it's hard even keeping Pete in the top 10! He's obviously there, but his legacy has suffered with the successes of Fedalovic "zooming" past him in every catagory! The same happened with Laver, but looking back with new lenses, Rod's back ahead of Pete with his 2 CYGS's! Borg will always be up there due to his premature exit & unprecedented success in just 8 short years! We give him credit for continuing to win FO to this day! There was no one close to beating him in Paris outsde of old man Panatta!

 

[monfed]

By the way, I am not triggered by the ad. I just find it funny that a Rolex ad in 2009 was all about numbers and in 2021 they mention that numbers dont matter. I am laughing that they aren't even consistent with what they said about 10 years ago. The fact that they are mentioning that numbers dont matter and changing their narrative should tell you who is winning the debate

Also Federer fans have been brutal to Djokovic in his ads, just go and see twitter for their cruel reactions

I'm willing to bet that if Djokovic somehow wins 8 titles or even 9 titles at Wimbledon given how weak this era is, you'll say he's better than Federer on grass. And this my friend is why numbers reveal half the story. They never fully reveal greatness until you contextualise and read them for what they are.

And this is why you have to look at each player's respective primes. Fed's prime >>> Novak's prime.

 

[tennisville]

When society ranks past accomplishments, it's more about opinion and those always change over time! I was ready to proclaim Sampras the BOAT/GOAT even without a FO final! Now that we've had 3 players surpass him with little trouble, it's hard even keeping Pete in the top 10! He's obviously there, but his legacy has suffered with the successes of Fedalovic "zooming" past him in every catagory! The same happened with Laver, but looking back with new lenses, Rod's back ahead of Pete with his 2 CYGS's! Borg will always be up there due to his premature exit & unprecedented success in just 8 short years! We give him credit for continuing to win FO to this day! There was no one close to beating him in Paris outsde of old man Panatta!

I don't think you can compare Laver to Sampras. Laver played 3 of his 4 slams on the grass while Sampras only played 1 of his 4 on the grass. Also, you gotta remember that things were different in the 90s, it was all about having the most majors. Because of that, Sampras decided to give up on clay and focus on Wimbledon. He would not have done that had he known that RG was something that was going to hold him back 20 years after he retired

I just think you gotta say that Laver was the best player of his era (60s), Sampras was the best of his era(90s), Federer was the best of his era (00s) and Djokovic is the best of his era (10s)

 

[monfed]

I don't think you can compare Laver to Sampras. Laver played 3 of his 4 slams on the grass while Sampras only played 1 of his 4 on the grass. Also, you gotta remember that things were different in the 90s, it was all about having the most majors. Because of that, Sampras decided to give up on clay and focus on Wimbledon. He would not have done that had he known that RG was something that was going to hold him back 20 years after he retired

I just think you gotta say that Laver was the best player of his era (60s), Sampras was the best of his era(90s), Federer was the best of his era (00s) and Djokovic is the best of his era (10s)

I can go with the bolded.

 

[monfed]

Fed's prime was from WTF 03 to AO 10 and peak till AO 07. His game fell off a cliff after AO 10. The only time Novax beat Fed is AO 08 and even in that Fed was battling mono.

So Novax even just being 1 year younger than dull, didn't do shit in Fed's prime even after he had won his first slam in 08. So why should Fed fans give Novax any credit to what he did in Fed's post prime? Who cares?

Even in his post-prime, Fed beat peak Novak at RG 11, was 2 MPs up at USO 11, beat him at Wimbledon 12 and beat him at multiple tier 2 events in MS and WTF. This was the end of post-prime small racquet Fed.

Now come to large racquet Fed. Ok here is where Novak started owning Fed and even here Fed took Novak to 5 sets in Wim 14, earned 20+ BPs at USO 15, all but beat him in Wim 19.

I mean what more proof do you want that Fed is the better player? Sure Novax has the numbers simply because there has been no ATG after 1987 to stop the Novax charge like Fed had BOTH Nadal AND Novax.

It's really not complicated, it's actually pretty simple if you just watched the tennis and were part of the era.

 

[BratSrbin]

Federer plays POSITIVE tennis to win matches. He doesn't keeping pushing and pushing till the opponent implodes. That is by definition negative tennis

Big mistake, everybody plays to win, does not matter how. Best they can do, i think.
Federer is running without any reason, very often.

 

[El Dude]

I see monfed is back, the Federer fan version of nadalgoat and Nadalfan2013.

Do you hear it, monfed? The Novak GOAT train coming?

 

[BratSrbin]

Ultimate Tennis Statistics - GOAT List

Open Era GOAT List (a.k.a. GOATometer) compares tennis player career achievements expressed by GOAT Points

www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com

 

[BratSrbin]

Fed's prime was from WTF 03 to AO 10 and peak till AO 07. His game fell off a cliff after AO 10. The only time Novax beat Fed is AO 08 and even in that Fed was battling mono.
...
It's really not complicated, it's actually pretty simple if you just watched the tennis and were part of the era.

Rank	Name	Pts	Tourn P	Rank P	Ach P	GS	TF	AF	M	O	BT	T	W@1	W%	Elo
1	Novak Djokovic	941	517	202	222	20	5	0	36	-	61	85	327	83.3%	2629
2	Roger Federer	935	566	199	170	20	6	0	28	-	54	103	310	81.9%	2550
3	Rafael Nadal	848	502	175	171	20	0	0	36	1	57	88	209	83.2%	2552
4	Jimmy Connors	614	402	151	61	8	1	2	20	-	31	109	268	81.7%	2521
5	Ivan Lendl	607	395	141	71	8	5	2	18	-	33	94	270	81.5%	2518
6	Pete Sampras	523	316	140	67	14	5	2	11	-	32	64	286	77.4%	2407
7	John McEnroe	514	321	128	65	7	3	5	17	-	32	77	170	81.6%	2583
8	Bjorn Borg	483	254	132	97	11	2	1	11	-	25	66	109	82.5%	2622
9	Andre Agassi	417	292	82	43	8	1	0	17	1	27	60	101	76.0%	2376
10	Rod Laver	390	202	101	87	5	0	2	18	-	25	72	219	79.7%	2509
11	Boris Becker	369	267	61	41	6	3	2	12	-	23	49	12	76.9%	2419
12	Stefan Edberg	327	242	62	23	6	1	0	6	1	14	42	72	74.8%	2370
13	Andy Murray	315	228	55	32	3	1	0	14	2	20	46	41	76.9%	2500
14	Mats Wilander	243	179	38	26	7	0	0	8	-	15	33	20	71.8%	2371
15	Guillermo Vilas	242	191	32	19	4	1	0	3	-	8	62	0	76.4%	2431
16	Ilie Nastase	228	163	46	19	2	4	0	6	-	12	65	88	72.8%	2363
17	Ken Rosewall	220	159	40	21	4	0	2	7	-	13	40	26	73.7%	2388
18	Arthur Ashe	211	174	23	14	3	0	1	4	-	8	45	0	75.2%	2354
19	John Newcombe	210	160	35	15	5	0	1	6	-	12	41	8	71.6%	2327
20	Lleyton Hewitt	181	114	52	15	2	2	0	2	-	6	30	80	70.2%	2295

 

[BratSrbin]

Los 10 registros que confirman a Djokovic como el mejor tenista de la historia

Novak Djokovic ha zanjado, de momento, el debate sobre quién es el mejor tenista de la historia. Con los números en la mano, el serbio, un año menos que Rafael Nadal y seis menos q

www.marca.com

 

[monfed]

I see monfed is back, the Federer fan version of nadalgoat and Nadalfan2013.

Do you hear it, monfed? The Novak GOAT train coming?

You can hear the inflation era GOAT train coming from a mile away.

 

[Front242]

Big mistake, everybody plays to win, does not matter how. Best they can do, i think.
Federer is running without any reason, very often.

Seriously ?! Of all the big 3 Federer is hands down the one who runs the least after balls he knows he shouldn't waste energy on. Don't lie to yourself.

 

[BratSrbin]

Seriously ?! Of all the big 3 Federer is hands down the one who runs the least after balls he knows he shouldn't waste energy on. Don't lie to yourself.

ОК.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Federer plays POSITIVE tennis to win matches. He doesn't keeping pushing and pushing till the opponent implodes. That is by definition negative tennis

I am not a Nole hater. However, there is an element of truth in the above statement. Look at the replay of the match point in today's match or look at the point that put Novak up a break (i think in 4th set, could be 3rd not sure). In both cases, Nole was repeatedly slicing in exactly the same way and to the same location. He was sort of like, I can do this till cows go home, but I know you will sooner or later commit an UFE.

Some players put you into a lull of repeated same slice and then suddenly hit a winner. Novak did not even do that. He simply says you can only repeat so many times, I can do it indefinitely.

Having said that, I admit that being able to consistently hit the ball like Novak does till cows go home is also a skill, although not so much attractive to watch.

 

[MikeOne]

As of NOW, Djoker clearly leads the GOAT race... but it's not over yet. Can Rog and Rafa turn things around?

Why is Novak GOAT:

1. Record weeks at #1.
2. Tied for slam record
3. Winning record vs the other two in the GOAT debate
4. Only one of the 3 who has won all 4 slams in a row
5. Most masters win.
6. Putting all big titles together - masters, atp cup, slams, Nole's total is the highest ever
7. Toppled Roger in his house (wimbledon) 3 times in finals.
8. Only player to topple Rafa in his house twice (French) and has most wins over Rafa on clay
9. Arguably, the most complete game. No weaknesses. Nadal may have more spin, Roger more variety but looking at their game in terms of strengths/weaknesses, Djoker may have the most complete game of all. As uncle Toni always says 'With roger, we had a strategy, with Djokovic, none'
a.) Amazing groundstrokes, equally as effective on any surface
b.) Amazing defense, movement. Probably best ever
c.) Amazing offense from baseline with ability to take ball early and employ uncanny depth consistently
d.) Arguably the best return ever
e.) A very effective serve, with great placement
f.)Very effective drop shot
g.) a very effective slice, which he has used effectively on grass
h.) As of recent, very good volleys with ability to serve and volley with great effectiveness

 

[monfed]

I am not a Nole hater. However, there is an element of truth in the above statement. Look at the replay of the match point in today's match or look at the point that put Novak up a break (i think in 4th set, could be 3rd not sure). In both cases, Nole was repeatedly slicing in exactly the same way and to the same location. He was sort of like, I can do this till cows go home, but I know you will sooner or later commit an UFE.

Some players put you into a lull of repeated same slice and then suddenly hit a winner. Novak did not even do that. He simply says you can only repeat so many times, I can do it indefinitely.

Having said that, I admit that being able to consistently hit the ball like Novak does till cows go home is also a skill, although not so much attractive to watch.

There is not a single sport that I can think of where the GOAT was a defender or defensive minded player. It's always the attacker or flair players who are considered GOATs

Take football for example - Lev Yashin is the greatest goalkeeper and Paolo Maldini the greatest defender but the debate is always between Pele/Maradona/Messi.

Cricket? Same thing. Dravid is the greatest defensive batsman ever but it's always between Tendulkar and Bradman or Richards or Sobers. They're all attackers and attack minded players.

TT - Waldner and Long. No defensive TT players can be found.

Basketball - Again the same story, Jordan the greatest attacker ever or its Lebron.

NFL - Quarterbacks Brady or Manning. No defenders here. Again it's the QB who makes the key play.

And on and on it goes. Federer is the greatest attacker of tennis. It's always the guy who takes risks and makes the play that is considered GOAT. Nadal and Djokovic make winners too but at the end of the day they're grinders at worst and defensive minded players at best. They're not attackers or flair players. So it's not possible to call them GOAT.

 

[El Dude]

There is not a single sport that I can think of where the GOAT was a defender or defensive minded player. It's always the attacker or flair players who are considered GOATs

Take football for example - Lev Yashin is the greatest goalkeeper and Paolo Maldini the greatest defender but the debate is always between Pele/Maradona/Messi.

Cricket? Same thing. Dravid is the greatest defensive batsman ever but it's always between Tendulkar and Bradman or Richards or Sobers. They're all attackers and attack minded players.

TT - Waldner and Long. No defensive TT players can be found.

Basketball - Again the same story, Jordan the greatest attacker ever or its Lebron.

NFL - Quarterbacks Brady or Manning. No defenders here. Again it's the QB who makes the key play.

And on and on it goes. Federer is the greatest attacker of tennis. It's always the guy who takes risks and makes the play that is considered GOAT. Nadal and Djokovic make winners too but at the end of the day they're grinders at worst and defensive minded players at best. They're not attackers or flair players. So it's not possible to call them GOAT.

This is absurd and easily refuted as such. All of those players are TEAM sports, where players specialize on offense and defense. Tennis (singles) is not a team sport. A player must attack AND defend.

End of story.