Time to crown Novak the GOAT?

El Dude

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The board just posted similar feelings of Sampras! After 6 straight YE #1's, where was there to go winning a record 13 Majors? Pete was lucky to pick up that 14th after going 2+ years without winning anything! He was in a malaise of proportions never seen with a #1 outside of Connors hanging on for dear life closing in on 40! :face-with-hand-over-mouth:
Sure, but players decline. So I don't know if it is fair to call it a "malaise." No one can stay at the top forever.
 

Moxie

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The age difference matters, though. Federer has hung around and been one of the top players in the sports for years after his closest peers were retired or no longer any good. Connors was also relevant deep into his 30s, winning a couple Slams in his early 30s, I believe. The main outlier, as far as age is concerned, is Rafa being a Slam winner at 19, sort of like Borg's early success.
That's why I don't get this insistence, even from you, that Rafa and Novak are one generation, and Roger is another. Rafa IS more like
Borg. Early success, burn it out a bit earlier. To pretend that Roger is one era and Rafa and Novak another...surely that's not what you mean.
 

El Dude

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That's why I don't get this insistence, even from you, that Rafa and Novak are one generation, and Roger is another. Rafa IS more like
Borg. Early success, burn it out a bit earlier. To pretend that Roger is one era and Rafa and Novak another...surely that's not what you mean.
Depends upon how you define "generation." 5-6 years is a lot in tennis time. It is the difference between a player cutting his teeth in Futures and entering his prime. Don't forget that Roger turned pro when Rafa was 12, Novak 11. I think of generation as having to do with player ages--who his peers are--while era has to do with the time. Generations overlap in eras, of course.

Or consider players within a year of them:

1980: Safin, Ferrero, Gonzalez
1981: Federer, Davydenko, Hewitt, Lopez
1982: Roddick, Nalbandian, Ferrer, Coria, Robredo

1985: Wawrinka, Tsonga, Berdych, Isner, Almagro
1986: Nadal, Gasquet, Monfils, Anderson
1987: Djokovic, Murray, Fognini, Querrey
1988: Del Potro, Cilic, Bautista Agut

There's a lot of overlap, obviously, but those are different generations of players, imo, overlapping in a broader era. Almost all of the players of Roger's cohort have long since retired.

Fun fact: Not only is Feliciano Lopez still playing, but Tommy Robredo is still holding on. He's lost in the 1st round of the qualifications of each three Slams this year.
 

Front242

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That's why I don't get this insistence, even from you, that Rafa and Novak are one generation, and Roger is another. Rafa IS more like
Borg. Early success, burn it out a bit earlier. To pretend that Roger is one era and Rafa and Novak another...surely that's not what you mean.
Federer is definitely not what you'd count as the same era in tennis terms as Djokovic and Nadal. Almost all the guys he started playing against have long since retired or are rubbish these days. The media spin it this way about all 3 being from the same era but not like they get a lot right. All media has an agenda. They lie to suit what suits them and grab headlines and clicks, money etc.
 

don_fabio

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I don't understand why people try to separate Fed from the other 2 just because he is 5-6 years older.

Sports have changed completely in last 20 years and players today last much longer and they stay on top of their game even in 30s. Fed played one of the best sets of tennis I witnessed in 2017 AO final 5th set at the age of 35 I believe, so all this talks about peak or prime or whatever doesn't really matter. Fed held MPs against Novak at age 37. So what peak, what prime are we talking about? Novak beat Nadal late in his career in RG and couldn't beat him there when he was in prime or peak or whatever.

I just look at the players where they are at their age, how far they go in majors, what ranking they have. If they are at the top, coming to finals of majors, winning even after age of 35 then I don't see any reason to put a stain on any of the big 3 resumes, like he didn't play other guy when he was in a prime. I don't buy it. They are all playing top level tennis for ages already. They just develop their game year after the year to stay on top even in their 30s.

Only Nadal's dominance on clay cannot ever be put for argue, that one is written in stone, he is the most dominant clay courter that ever existed and that record will stay for a long time unless they ruin the sport and change rules completely or Nadal v 3.0 appears somewhere. And for the record of most slams this chapter is yet to be written before the end of this whole story.
 
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Front242

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I don't understand why people try to separate Fed from the other 2 just because he is 5-6 years older.

Sports have changed completely in last 20 years and players today last much longer and they stay on top of their game even in 30s. Fed played one of the best sets of tennis I witnessed in 2017 AO final 5th set at the age of 35 I believe, so all this talks about peak or prime or whatever doesn't really matter. Fed held MPs against Novak at age 37. So what peak, what prime are we talking about? Novak beat Nadal late in his career in RG and couldn't beat him there when he was in prime or peak or whatever.

I just look at the players where they are at their age, how far they go in majors, what ranking they have. If they are at the top, coming to finals of majors, winning even after age of 35 then I don't see any reason to put a stain on any of the big 3 resumes, like he didn't play other guy when he was in a prime. I don't buy it. They are all playing top level tennis for ages already. They just develop their game year after the year to stay on top even in their 30s.

Only Nadal's dominance on clay cannot ever be put for argue, that one is written in stone, he is the most dominant clay courter that ever existed and that record will stay for a long time unless they ruin the sport and change rules completely or Nadal v 3.0 appears somewhere. And for the record of most slams this chapter is yet to be written before the end of this whole story.
Just cos he's still very good at his age though doesn't mean they're not from different eras. An old fart in the gym might lift weigh heavier weights than someone half their age but that doesn't mean they're not older.
 
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the AntiPusher

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Just cos he's still very good at his age though doesn't mean they're not from different eras. An old fart in the gym might lift weigh heavier weights than someone half their age but that doesn't mean they're not older.
All due respect.. lifting weights at 40 isn't in the same league with playing tennis against 130 mph serves and FH/BH hit at 90 mph plus the grind n toll on the injured joints for 3-5 hours on a hard tennis surface.. However your point is understood.
 

Front242

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All due respect.. lifting weights at 40 isn't in the same league with playing tennis against 130 mph serves and FH/BH hit at 90 mph plus the grind n toll on the injured joints for 3-5 hours on a hard tennis surface.. However your point is understood.
Tbh it makes even better sense now with your addition. 5 to 6 more years wear and tear to Roger and yet he's supposed to be from same era and on level terms despite being almost 40?! I rest my case. Novak only started leading the h2h against Roger since he turned 35...
 

the AntiPusher

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Tbh it makes even better sense now with your addition. 5 to 6 more years wear and tear to Roger and yet he's supposed to be from same era and on level terms despite being almost 40?! I rest my case. Novak only started leading the h2h against Roger since he turned 35...
Hey Bud..I'm not on the Novak is the GOAT bandwagon..As a matter of fact..I have said for years that Novak has been the biggest beneficiary of an aging Federer..
 
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El Dude

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Some of these things even out in terms of resumes. For instance, Roger has a detriment that Rafa and Novak don't have: two (roughly) equally great players 5-6 years young. Neither Rafa nor Novak have had to deal any younger players anywhere close to their level, meaning their 30s have been more breezy, while Roger's 30s have been defined by Rafa and Novak - and he's still managed to win 4 Slams and tons of tournaments in his 30s, even reaching #1 a few times (2012, 2017).

On the other hand, Roger didn't have anyone close to him during his early years, so could pad his record, while Novak and Rafa had to face each other, again and again, and plus had the old man to deal with.

So, in a way, it balances out. But pointing out one doesn't negate the other. Just as pointing out the age difference doesn't mean that Roger is off the hook. But it is meaningful.
 

Front242

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Hey Bud..I'm not on the Novak is the GOAT bandwagon..As a matter of fact..I have said for years that Novak has been the biggest beneficiary of an aging Federer..
Absolutely. Novak has rogered Roger more than vice versa sadly. You'd think the guy called Roger would be doing the rogering but age is obviously a massive factor. Less rogering the older you get.
 

El Dude

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Absolutely. Novak has rogered Roger more than vice versa sadly. You'd think the guy called Roger would be doing the rogering but age is obviously a massive factor. Less rogering the older you get.
My question is, who was the original Roger who first rogered someone? Could one of the Brits provide historical context?
 

the AntiPusher

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Absolutely. Novak has rogered Roger more than vice versa sadly. You'd think the guy called Roger would be doing the rogering but age is obviously a massive factor. Less rogering the older you get.
"This AIN'T Over"..... Raphael Nadal
 

Front242

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My question is, who was the original Roger who first rogered someone? Could one of the Brits provide historical context?
Not quite sure but possibly Roger Moore, no ? I know most preferred Sean Connery but for me Roger Moore was the better Bond by way of being a true sleazeball :D I'm not a Brit though.
 

El Dude

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Not quite sure but possibly Roger Moore, no ? I know most preferred Sean Connery but for me Roger Moore was the better Bond by way of being a true sleazeball :D I'm not a Brit though.
I don't like to admit that, but kind of agree. Or rather, I grew up with Moore and liked him best as a kid, but then grew to appreciate Connery. So I think Connery is, overall, the best--or at least the archetype--but Moore was my childhood favorite.
 

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I don't like to admit that, but kind of agree. Or rather, I grew up with Moore and liked him best as a kid, but then grew to appreciate Connery. So I think Connery is, overall, the best--or at least the archetype--but Moore was my childhood favorite.
Just before we turn this into a GOAT-Bond thread, let me settle this right here: Sean Connery. End o'. :good: :face-with-tears-of-joy:
 

El Dude

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Or we can do a Herd of Bond-GOATS:

The Holy Trinity...
Sean Connery: The Roger Federer of Bonds...just overall class and demeanor.
Roger Moore: The Rafa Nadal of Bonds...because, nobody does it better (on clay).
Daniel Craig: The Novak Djokovic of Bonds...(or anti-Novak, really, because he's humorless). The smolder, and for taking the franchise to a new level.

Others...
George Lazenby: The Lleyton Hewitt of Bonds...because Australian, and because he was Bond (#1) in-between greats.
Timothy Dalton: The Andy Murray of Bonds...a good effort, but not quite. Maybe in a different era?
Pierce Brosnan: The Nalbandian of Bonds - great on paper, but...
 

Moxie

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Depends upon how you define "generation." 5-6 years is a lot in tennis time. It is the difference between a player cutting his teeth in Futures and entering his prime. Don't forget that Roger turned pro when Rafa was 12, Novak 11. I think of generation as having to do with player ages--who his peers are--while era has to do with the time. Generations overlap in eras, of course.

Or consider players within a year of them:

1980: Safin, Ferrero, Gonzalez
1981: Federer, Davydenko, Hewitt, Lopez
1982: Roddick, Nalbandian, Ferrer, Coria, Robredo

1985: Wawrinka, Tsonga, Berdych, Isner, Almagro
1986: Nadal, Gasquet, Monfils, Anderson
1987: Djokovic, Murray, Fognini, Querrey
1988: Del Potro, Cilic, Bautista Agut

There's a lot of overlap, obviously, but those are different generations of players, imo, overlapping in a broader era. Almost all of the players of Roger's cohort have long since retired.

Fun fact: Not only is Feliciano Lopez still playing, but Tommy Robredo is still holding on. He's lost in the 1st round of the qualifications of each three Slams this year.
I can see why you would group these as two generations, but I do rather agree with @don_fabio above as to how much it matters. I also strongly disagree with @Front242 above where he tries to insist that Roger is from a different "era" from Rafa and Novak. Clearly, that is not the case. See how many times they've played each other. They are all of this era.

When they turned pro and started winning tournaments does matter, in reference to your bolded above. Roger turned pro in 1998, at 16, one presumes (not yet 17, but maybe he was?) and won his first tournament (Milan, indoor carpet) in 2001, 3 years later. Rafa turned pro in 2001, at 15, just 3 years after Roger. So you make the point that Rafa was 12 when Roger turned pro, but it was only going to be 3 years until he did, too. And, at 12, he won all Spain and all Europe in his age group. And he also won his first tournament after 3 years, (Sopot, clay.) Novak turned pro in 2003. 5 years after Roger and 2 years after Rafa, and won his first tournaments also 3 years later (Metz, indoor HC; Amersfort, clay.) Roger and Rafa first played in early 2004, whereas Roger and Novak didn't first play until 2006. Nor did Novak play Nadal until 2006.

So I think you can see the complication of splitting Rafa and Novak from Roger, in some ways. By virtue of matches played, etc., Nadal and Djokovic have always been more like 2 years apart in "tennis years."

I think when they turned pro, and began winning does matter, and I mean for all players. For example, Wawrinka is a year older than Rafa, but turned pro a year after him. Always considered a "late-bloomer." And Isner, who is born the same year as Nadal, turned pro in 2007 (he played college tennis,) which is a full 6 years after Nadal, and you consider 5-6 years to be a generation, so does that make Isner and Nadal even of the same "generation?"

What I'm saying is that birth years don't matter quite as much as you make them, and you can put in that break, if you like, but there still is a bit of flabby in there. I do think tennis years matter. But we're also only talking about the start, and not the longevity of strong playing years.
 

Moxie

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Or we can do a Herd of Bond-GOATS:

The Holy Trinity...
Sean Connery: The Roger Federer of Bonds...just overall class and demeanor.
Roger Moore: The Rafa Nadal of Bonds...because, nobody does it better (on clay).
Daniel Craig: The Novak Djokovic of Bonds...(or anti-Novak, really, because he's humorless). The smolder, and for taking the franchise to a new level.

Others...
George Lazenby: The Lleyton Hewitt of Bonds...because Australian, and because he was Bond (#1) in-between greats.
Timothy Dalton: The Andy Murray of Bonds...a good effort, but not quite. Maybe in a different era?
Pierce Brosnan: The Nalbandian of Bonds - great on paper, but...
Excellent effort at laying Bonds on tennis players, but I have to make some adjustments. Rating in order of my Bonds:

Sean Connery: At the risk of crowning Roger, but yes, he's most like Sean. The original, and, amongst tennis players, Roger wears a tux the best.
Daniel Craig: Craig is the 2nd best Bond. You're just wrong about Roger Moore, sorry. As a tennis player, I'd make him Rafa, (NOT for 2nd best, of course!) but because he IS the most serious, and the one who comes out of the water best in a bathing suit.
Timothy Dalton: I liked him as Bond, even if short-lived. He makes a good comparison with Murray as probably the grumpiest Bond. But the darkness was interesting. My other pick for Dalton would be Safin.
Roger Moore: He took the franchise to its most winking and smarmy. This is why I'd make him more Novak. The humor you were missing in your original. Surely, RM was the funniest bond.

The rest I'll just give you, for clever, but everyone agrees that Lazenby was the nadir of the Bond franchise. :)
 

the AntiPusher

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Or we can do a Herd of Bond-GOATS:

The Holy Trinity...
Sean Connery: The Roger Federer of Bonds...just overall class and demeanor.
Roger Moore: The Rafa Nadal of Bonds...because, nobody does it better (on clay).
Daniel Craig: The Novak Djokovic of Bonds...(or anti-Novak, really, because he's humorless). The smolder, and for taking the franchise to a new level.

Others...
George Lazenby: The Lleyton Hewitt of Bonds...because Australian, and because he was Bond (#1) in-between greats.
Timothy Dalton: The Andy Murray of Bonds...a good effort, but not quite. Maybe in a different era?
Pierce Brosnan: The Nalbandian of Bonds - great on paper, but...
Hell nah..you ain't gonna cheapen Rafa..Rafa is Sean Connery.. jajaja..I can see Rafa say.. afterwards hearing the name Pussy Galore.."I must be Dreaming"
 
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