The Ultimate FEDAL (Wars) Thread

[MikeOne]

I envy you then. You could be celebrating within a few years when one of them surpasses Federer. Do you like Nadal and Djokovic equally? Why do yo dislike Federer so much? Is it because he broke Sampras' record?

Hated is a strong word, just never was a big fan of him and it's more to do with his personality, little to do with him passing Sampras, Sampras is an old memory. Have you heard me bring him up lately?

I think Federer was two faced brat/arrogant guy who tried to portray an imagine of this perfect ambassador of the sport. I never liked how he acted like a child and belittled nadal's game by calling him a grinder and claiming he (Fed) played all matches vs Nadal on his terms. He also took jabs at Djokovic when Djokovic used to retire, personally insulting Djokovic as a guy who just lied about reasons for retiring, we later found out he had issues with diet that made it hard for him breathe. Nadal and Djokovic nor Sampras ever made such comments... and how Fed cried when he lost that 09 AO, like a baby who was used to getting all presents and couldn't share any presents with anyone.

I remember back then i had friends which were Nadal fans and they seemed to have same perspective on Federer. The Federer fans hated Nadal too, saw him as some talentless brute, not worthy of defeating Fed. I have to say this rivalry really was intriguing, it was much more than just tennis... Federer's arrogant, condescending attitude and Nadal's crudeness which Fed fans were disgusted with, created a very exciting atmosphere.

 

[Moxie]

I looked up their historical records on grass. Roddick is 86-22, for .796 on grass. Nadal is 86-19, for .776. Interestingly close, and closer than one would think. Roddick has 2 grass titles: Eastbourne and Queens. Nadal has 3: Queens, plus 2 Wimbledons. Surprising, innit?

EDIT: Roddick beat Seppi and Grosjean to win those titles. Nadal won his beating Djokovic, Federer and Berdych. Just sayin'....

 

[El Dude]

I'm enjoying the cameo appearance by Roddick in the Fedal Wars thread, as a respite. I don't know if the Murray comparison is completely apt, as Murray has had a much better career, and I think he was a much more versatile player. They are both very funny, though, off-court. I wasn't a fan of Roddick's game, but you had to respect his sturdiness. He didn't fall out of the top 10 for a full decade.

Of course Scottish Andy was much better than American Andy. But the similarity is that they both had the bad luck of playing alongside the greatest players in tennis history, and their careers were greatly crippled by that fact.

Roddick was (and presumably is) a really funny dude. I would have liked to see him take up an announcer role.

While I do agree that Roddick, like Murray, would likely have won more in a different era, I'm not sure how far you can stretch a point about making a lot of QFs. But thanks for the stat.

Making a lot of QFs = going deepish in Slams = consistently very good. That is the only point I'm making. And of course some of those QFs became SFs, some which became Finals, and one a win. The QF stat just shows how he hangs with some really good (and better) players in terms of being consistently very good at Slams.

 

[El Dude]

Or to put it another way, Andy Roddick had a better career than all but a small handful fo the 1984-88 group: Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, and Wawrinka. Del Potro is more talented, but doesn't yet have the trophies to match Roddick. Cilic is an interesting comp, but I think Roddick was better, or at least more consistent and for a longer time. If Cilic wins a few more Masters we can revisit that question.

At the very least we could say that Roddick was one of the better players to only win a single Slam. I think you can divide one Slam players into two general groups:

1a. Players who could have won more than one, but for whatever reason--injury, stiff competition, early retirement, drugs--they didn't. Think Roddick, del Potro, Chang, Muster, Orantes, Gerulaitis, Ivanisevic, Stich, etc.
1b. Classic one Slam wonders. Right place, right time. Think Gaudio, Johansson, Edmondson, Teacher, Costa, etc.

Similarly, there's a group of Slamless players that are better than most in the 1b category: Nalbandian, Ferrer, Soderling, Rios, Mecir, Okker, etc. Most of these guys didn't win Slams due to competition.

 

[mrzz]

2003 to 2005 Roddick would have straight setted 2008 Fedal with one hand tied to his back. All you need to do is to turn off your religious beliefs and watch the fucking matches to understand that.

 

[Ricardo]

couple of points you make that we need to talk about.

you ask why Isner nor Karlovic did anything an Wimbledon and use this fact to somehow argue that Roddick wasn't all serve. You are right, but wrong at same time. Of course Roddick wasn't just all serve but he was pretty 1 dimensional. Comparing Isner and Karlovic to Roddick is a joke because these guys are extremes - unathletic behemoths who are very limited athletically. Roddick was more athletic than these guys and more mobile so compared to these guys he was an athlete but everything is relative. When you compare Roddick to Nadal, Djokovic, Federer, Sampras and even guys like Ivanisevic, Roddick was limited athletically. It's like me saying i'm really fast because so so who is 360 lbs and obese is slow.... but if i compare myself to a top athlete, i'm nothing.

You can say all you want, and a lot of it is absolute trash because the facts are totally against you.

Wimbledon finals:

Roddick 3
Nadal 5

Wimbledon titles:

Nadal 2
Roddick 0

H2H vs Federer at Wimbledon:

Nadal 1-2
Roddick 0-3

H2H

Nadal 1, Roddick 0


By EVERY measure, stat, fact Nadal >>>> Roddick on grass. End of discussion

This is just stupid, Goran was definitely more one dimensional than Roddick.

 

[Ricardo]

So you say ‘roddick was unlucky to have faced federer in 3 w finals’.

To which i respond ‘nadal was also unlucky to have faced fedeter in 3 wimbledon finals’. So using your logic, nadal would’ve won 4 wimbledon titles if he hadn’t faced federer in 06 and 07.

So funny enough, both roddick and nadal faced federer 3 times in w finals. Roddick was able to win 3 sets in all 3 finals and lost all 3. Nadal was able to win 5 sets in 3 finals and won 1 of the matches.

And if roddick was so great on grass, why only 3 finals? Nadal made 5...

And nadal did beat him only time they met in grass and this a year before roddick had his best performance vs fed (09 w) so roddick was not an oldie past past his prime.

By almost every measure or statistic, facts show nadal > roddick on grass. I know this is hard to take as some of you want to make nadal out to be just a clay courter but nadal has always been good on grass, on hardcourts, it’s just that he’s insane on clay.

If you closely analyze roddick’s game, he actually never had a game suited for grass outside of the serve - good volleys. agile, fast, good slice... he basically rode his serve to the 3 w finals but outside of his serve, he had an awful grass court game. Sampras, federer were the perfect grass court players. Even nadal had much better slice, volleys and movement than roddick.. roddick truly had a very 1 dimensional game on grass and this is why when federer was able to get his serve back in play, roddick was a joke... fed toyed with him. In 09 roddick was able to take federer to 5 sets because he served like crazy.. he had amazing serving day.. without it, he was garbage on grass.

Since when is the assumption ‘without a great serve’ to form part of an argument? And two idiots actually co-sign that...without their great serves, I doubt even the Sampras’s, Federer’s even gets one Wimbledon, and guys like Goran probably can’t make the qualies. How about without their great ground strokes, Nadal and Djokovic would be garbage...same logic, but it’s just bs to argue in such a way. Or better still, Edberg and Mac without great volleys.....

 

[Federberg]

Hated is a strong word, just never was a big fan of him and it's more to do with his personality, little to do with him passing Sampras, Sampras is an old memory. Have you heard me bring him up lately?

I think Federer was two faced brat/arrogant guy who tried to portray an imagine of this perfect ambassador of the sport. I never liked how he acted like a child and belittled nadal's game by calling him a grinder and claiming he (Fed) played all matches vs Nadal on his terms. He also took jabs at Djokovic when Djokovic used to retire, personally insulting Djokovic as a guy who just lied about reasons for retiring, we later found out he had issues with diet that made it hard for him breathe. Nadal and Djokovic nor Sampras ever made such comments... and how Fed cried when he lost that 09 AO, like a baby who was used to getting all presents and couldn't share any presents with anyone.

I remember back then i had friends which were Nadal fans and they seemed to have same perspective on Federer. The Federer fans hated Nadal too, saw him as some talentless brute, not worthy of defeating Fed. I have to say this rivalry really was intriguing, it was much more than just tennis... Federer's arrogant, condescending attitude and Nadal's crudeness which Fed fans were disgusted with, created a very exciting atmosphere.

speaking as someone who's actually met the guy, and bear in mind I'm as cynical as hell and separate being a fan of an athlete from being a fan of the person, Federer shockingly authentic to me. The guy had no airs, and talked like a real person. I also know people who work at Wimbledon who say that he's the nicest one of the top stars and because the workers like him so much, the authorities provide the player only taxi service to his wife which is just not done. Btw I hear similarly nice things about Nadal being a real person as well, and humble as hell. So where you get this hostility from I don't quite understand. I suspect your fandom for someone else has morphed into something twisted which sad to say tells us a lot more about you than the likes of Federer

 

[atttomole]

couple of points you make that we need to talk about.

you ask why Isner nor Karlovic did anything an Wimbledon and use this fact to somehow argue that Roddick wasn't all serve. You are right, but wrong at same time. Of course Roddick wasn't just all serve but he was pretty 1 dimensional. Comparing Isner and Karlovic to Roddick is a joke because these guys are extremes - unathletic behemoths who are very limited athletically. Roddick was more athletic than these guys and more mobile so compared to these guys he was an athlete but everything is relative. When you compare Roddick to Nadal, Djokovic, Federer, Sampras and even guys like Ivanisevic, Roddick was limited athletically. It's like me saying i'm really fast because so so who is 360 lbs and obese is slow.... but if i compare myself to a top athlete, i'm nothing.

You can say all you want, and a lot of it is absolute trash because the facts are totally against you.

Wimbledon finals:

Roddick 3
Nadal 5

Wimbledon titles:

Nadal 2
Roddick 0

H2H vs Federer at Wimbledon:

Nadal 1-2
Roddick 0-3

H2H

Nadal 1, Roddick 0


By EVERY measure, stat, fact Nadal >>>> Roddick on grass. End of discussion

It is very unsurprising that you mentioned Ivanisevic as a better player than Roddick. You and me remember that Ivanisevic was owned by a certain player you idolize. I can see that you could not resist reminding us how much you like Sampras without mentioning him.

 

[atttomole]

Hated is a strong word, just never was a big fan of him and it's more to do with his personality, little to do with him passing Sampras, Sampras is an old memory. Have you heard me bring him up lately?

I think Federer was two faced brat/arrogant guy who tried to portray an imagine of this perfect ambassador of the sport. I never liked how he acted like a child and belittled nadal's game by calling him a grinder and claiming he (Fed) played all matches vs Nadal on his terms. He also took jabs at Djokovic when Djokovic used to retire, personally insulting Djokovic as a guy who just lied about reasons for retiring, we later found out he had issues with diet that made it hard for him breathe. Nadal and Djokovic nor Sampras ever made such comments... and how Fed cried when he lost that 09 AO, like a baby who was used to getting all presents and couldn't share any presents with anyone.

I remember back then i had friends which were Nadal fans and they seemed to have same perspective on Federer. The Federer fans hated Nadal too, saw him as some talentless brute, not worthy of defeating Fed. I have to say this rivalry really was intriguing, it was much more than just tennis... Federer's arrogant, condescending attitude and Nadal's crudeness which Fed fans were disgusted with, created a very exciting atmosphere.

The arguments you are making are the very same ones you used to make around 2006, before Federer passed Sampras, and then you took a break from the boards after Roger won his 15th.

I think it is still about Sampras, which is why you are trying to convince us that Ivaniseic was better than Roddick. The Federer-Roddick and Sampras-Ivanisevic symmetry is still in your mind, clearly.

These guys are arrogant. Federer has said disparaging things about Nadal because he thought Rafa was a grinder, but he discovered that Rafa’s game was more complicated than he thought. However, you conveniently forget how Rafa used to dawdle on court in order to unsettle opponents. Thankfully, we now have a serve clock. How he would fake injuries to break the opponent’s rhythm....He did that a few times at Wimbledon when he was being blown away by good servers.
Djokovic used to talk about how Federer was finished, and his mother echoing that by saying the king was dead. I still remember one time Federer telling their camp to keep quiet at a match in Montecarlo when they were provoking him.

It is good to see that they have all mellowed with age, but don’t forget that these guys are all arrogant.

 

[MikeOne]

2003 to 2005 Roddick would have straight setted 2008 Fedal with one hand tied to his back. All you need to do is to turn off your religious beliefs and watch the fucking matches to understand that.

this is not backed by facts.

Federer's best years were 04-07, results wise. Roddick faced Federer in 04,05 Wimbledon finals and Nadal in 06,07 finals.

Who did better against prime Fed at Wimbledon? (**ANY argument that 04,05 Fed > 06,07 Fed will render you a clown)

In 04, Roddick lost to Fed in 4 sets and in 05, got embarrassed in finals, it was an absolute joke.

Meanwhile, Nadal took a set off Federer in 06 finals (only player to so in whole tournament) and pushed him to 5 in 07 finals.

So Roddick, in the prime of his career, managed to take a set off 04 Fed and Nadal, as a baby, in his first run at wimbledon, did the same. Roddick then got absolutely annihilated the second time around in 05, Nadal took Fed to 5 sets in 07.

So facing prime Fed, Nadal did much better. Nadal >>>>>> Roddick on grass. Since both 07 and 08 finals went to 5 sets, shows Fed's level was quite close both years and more than likely, it was all Nadal, not Fed's deteriorated level, i conclude = 08 Fed >>>>> 04, 05 Roddick.

People have this notion of Roddick being so amazing in 04-05 but truthfully, he only played one beast mode set vs Federer in two finals, this was the first set of 04 Wimbledon. In that set, Roddick went for all his shots, they all went in, served well and barely squeezed a set 6-4.. He couldn't maintain this level past 1st in 04 finals and in 05, played nothing like he did in that first set in 04, thus got totally humiliated in that final... it was a disgrace.

 

[MikeOne]

speaking as someone who's actually met the guy, and bear in mind I'm as cynical as hell and separate being a fan of an athlete from being a fan of the person, Federer shockingly authentic to me. The guy had no airs, and talked like a real person. I also know people who work at Wimbledon who say that he's the nicest one of the top stars and because the workers like him so much, the authorities provide the player only taxi service to his wife which is just not done. Btw I hear similarly nice things about Nadal being a real person as well, and humble as hell. So where you get this hostility from I don't quite understand. I suspect your fandom for someone else has morphed into something twisted which sad to say tells us a lot more about you than the likes of Federer

your problem is the same problem other Fed fans like darthfed have, you want to discredit anyone that wasn't a fanboy of Fed as someone 'with issues, something twisted'. This actually says something about you as-well, why seek to discredit and belittle anyone that wasn't a fan boy of Fed? I haven't seen you do the same with people who clearly dislike Nadal, there are plenty here... why? you haven't paid attention to the constant excuse making by Fed fans and how they go to great lengths to belittle all of Nadal's big wins? why so much Nadal distaste? you don't say anything..

Like i said, 'hate' is a strong word as i have never met him, you guys claim i hate him without knowing crap, just to discredit me. So, it comes down to favoritism.. i just couldn't be a big fan of him given he had this thing about him where he was condescending towards rivals, especially early on. He did change though, over the years, he started to give credit to Nadal and even called him a great shot maker, which was black and white vs when he used to claim Nadal was 'just a grinder' and made it seem all matches were on his (Fed's) racquet, he just let Nadal win..he was quite open about this early on. He has also been complimentary about Djokovic in recent years, someone he dissed as a weak excuse making player who retired for no good reasons, this without knowing what was going on with Djoker.

So call it maturity, i truthfully liked Federer 07 onwards more than when he was younger, he was 100% condescending of his rivals when he was younger, was hard to be his big fan, other than appreciating the level he displayed.. i always enjoyed those matches like 06 AT tour finals when he destroyed Blake, any tennis player like myself appreciated that. It comes down to who was my favourite he wasn't.

 

[britbox]

You liked Fed @MikeOne? In 07? are you sure?

 

[tented]

I still remember one time Federer telling their camp to keep quiet at a match in Montecarlo when they were provoking him.

A surprising, memorable moment.

 

[MikeOne]

It is very unsurprising that you mentioned Ivanisevic as a better player than Roddick. You and me remember that Ivanisevic was owned by a certain player you idolize. I can see that you could not resist reminding us how much you like Sampras without mentioning him.

You are beginning to lose credibility, fast. First, you are not reading carefully. I compared their athleticism, never said ivanisevic was a better player overall, although it can be argued he had a more dangerous grass court game. Ivanisevic made 4 Wimbledon finals and actually won it once. Interestingly, the year he won it he was clearly past his prime after injuries and aging, yet he beat Roddick, Henman and Rafter in route to winning it. Henman at the time was tough on grass and Rafter had made Wimbledon finals before. This tells you how dangerous Goran was, that he could win it even past his prime because when he got in a hot streak, his top game was better than Roddick's top game on grass- better serve, better volleys, better slice, better movement...

are you saying it was clear that Roddick > Goran on grass? explain...

Goran took Sampras, in his prime, to 5 sets at Wimbledon. I would've loved to see Roddick facing prime sampras on grass, past his prime Sampras crushed Roddick at USO, in 2001 just prior to Roddick winning USO later,

 

[MikeOne]

You liked Fed @MikeOne? In 07? are you sure?

yeah britbox, believe it or not

Federer went through a period were he was openly condescending of Nadal's game (around 05-6), i guess you can attribute it to him being immature and not used to losing so much to 1 player... He later started giving credit nadal.

On the message boards, it wasn't Federer himself belittling Nadal's game and making excuses every time he lost to Nadal, it was his fans. You all confuse fire directed at his fans to fire directed at Federer himself. His fans have been the worst kind on the message boards for years and years... always belittling Nadal and Djokovic, making so many excuses as to why Federer lost to them... fire directed at them wasn't really fire directed at Federer.

 

[atttomole]

You are beginning to lose credibility, fast. First, you are not reading carefully. I compared their athleticism, never said ivanisevic was a better player overall, although it can be argued he had a more dangerous grass court game. Ivanisevic made 4 Wimbledon finals and actually won it once. Interestingly, the year he won it he was clearly past his prime after injuries and aging, yet he beat Roddick, Henman and Rafter in route to winning it. Henman at the time was tough on grass and Rafter had made Wimbledon finals before. This tells you how dangerous Goran was, that he could win it even past his prime because when he got in a hot streak, his top game was better than Roddick's top game on grass- better serve, better volleys, better slice, better movement...

are you saying it was clear that Roddick > Goran on grass? explain...

Goran took Sampras, in his prime, to 5 sets at Wimbledon. I would've loved to see Roddick facing prime sampras on grass, past his prime Sampras crushed Roddick at USO, in 2001 just prior to Roddick winning USO later,

You are trying to be too technical here. In summary, you are simply saying Ivanisevic was better than Roddick. Can you be explicit on that? Federer beat Sampras when he was 19, so can we conclude based on that alone that Federer was a better grass court player than Sampras?

BTW, you forgot to explain to me why your fav Nadal lost 4 in a row to Federer in 2017.

I would have loved to watch Sampras vs Roddick on grass, just like I would have loved to watch Federer vis Goran on grass. In addition, I would have loved to watch more Federer vs Sampras on grass.

 

[atttomole]

yeah britbox, believe it or not

Federer went through a period were he was openly condescending of Nadal's game (around 05-6), i guess you can attribute it to him being immature and not used to losing so much to 1 player... He later started giving credit nadal.

On the message boards, it wasn't Federer himself belittling Nadal's game and making excuses every time he lost to Nadal, it was his fans. You all confuse fire directed at his fans to fire directed at Federer himself. His fans have been the worst kind on the message boards for years and years... always belittling Nadal and Djokovic, making so many excuses as to why Federer lost to them... fire directed at them wasn't really fire directed at Federer.

Let’s be honest here, Federer fans do not view Nadal and Djokovic the same way, with respect to their tennis,

 

[MikeOne]

You are trying to be too technical here. In summary, you are simply saying Ivanisevic was better than Roddick. Can you be explicit on that? Federer beat Sampras when he was 19, so can we conclude based on that alone that Federer was a better grass court player than Sampras?

BTW, you forgot to explain to me why your fav Nadal lost 4 in a row to Federer in 2017.

I would have loved to watch Sampras vs Roddick on grass, just like I would have loved to watch Federer vis Goran on grass. In addition, I would have loved to watch more Federer vs Sampras on grass.

you are all over the place here and incoherent.

too technical? aren't we supposed to go by facts?

I specifically was alluding to athleticism and grass court game when i compared Kralovic, Isner, Roddick and Ivanisevic. I never said Ivanisevic was a better or more accomplished player than Roddick, overall. I corrected you on this and you know it. if you go back and read, i was clearly discussing grass court game..

You never answered by question, was Roddick better than Ivanisevic on grass? I argue, Goran > Roddick on grass, prime vs prime. On other surfaces, Roddick > Goran. Not hard to follow? and pls answer my question, i'm interested.

then you bring Sampras vs Federer 01 match, one being 19 and Sampras on his way out (retired 2002). The match was close, would've been interesting to have seen them prime vs prime, leave it at that. This is irrelevant to the topic though..

then you bring Fed beating Nadal 5 times in a row in 2017. Nadal had 5 match winning streaks vs Federer ON 3 OCCASIONS beforehand, so Fed has 1 good streak and? should we ignore Nadal beating him 5 times in a row before? even during Fed's best years? and just define their rivalry by the last 5 matches? you are beginning to sound as bad as some of the fed fans here... totally irrational.

 

[MikeOne]

Let’s be honest here, Federer fans do not view Nadal and Djokovic the same way, with respect to their tennis,

Without any doubt, i give Federer more credit for his wins vs Nadal/Djoker than die hard Fed fans give Nadal/Djoker for their wins.

Djokovic beat Fed in 08 AO (Fed had mono). Djokovic beat Fed at Wimbledon twice (Fed past his prime, old, even though he played very high level). Nadal beats Fed 08 W (Fed served like crap, weakened by mono). Nadal beat Fed 09 AO (Fed mental midget, gave match away). On and on and on and on...

I have never made excuses for Nadal losses vs fed and neither Djokovic losses vs Fed, always gave Fed credit. Big difference..