The Ultimate FEDAL (Wars) Thread

Moxie

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Nadal is not some kind of world beater off clay though he has done quite well.

Following on to @brokenshoelace's point about Rafa off of clay, he's come up second best a lot of times to Roger and Novak in finals in MS and Majors on HC. If you're going to complain that Rafa has the edge because he's the best on clay, you have to make note that he'd have done better on HCs if only he didn't have to play Roger and Novak on HCs. And, yes, I think it's a complete joke that you say he's not a "world beater" off of clay.
 

Federberg

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This is a Fedal thread. I don't know how you expect it not to be about each vis-a-vis the other. I don't think Rafa fans have any "deep insecurity or chip" on our shoulders. But we do have to elbow for Rafa's place in it all, with Roger fans working so hard to brush Nadal off. I realize that Feddies would prefer that Rafa and Roger not be so often spoken of in the same breath, but there's no changing that, especially in the wider tennis conversation with commentators and writers. Realistically, Fed fans are just as guilty, too. The new fashion, as Roger has done so well against Rafa this year, is for reimagining the whole H2H, and you are guilty of that, too. Oh, the what-ifs. (Yours was to wonder if Roger hadn't had such a complicated 2008, how he might have fared differently, regarding Nadal.) I might likewise wonder if Djokovic hadn't hit such a new and high stride in 2011. But it's not useful. I'll be honest, I don't think @brokenshoelace is outlandish to say that the Federer fans are a pretty arrogant bunch. Because Roger is so great...and he is...you tend to think that all of his failings are only down to him. Oh, right..the great concession to clay. Beyond that, it's a load of excuses when it comes to Rafa. It's really not only us Nadal fans.

I don't. See above.

It wasn't a what if. I was trying to point out the absurdities of the whole reinterpretation of history. Roger has had a Rafa problem, there is no question about this. It's not unreasonable to say that if he hadn't been busted apart by Rafa at RG 08 he might have approached future matches against Rafa differently. It doesn't mean the outcomes would have been different by the way. I have no taste for woulda coulda. To be honest all the dark times for Roger just make his tuning Rafa now all the sweeter. It would be boring if Rafa had been his bitch all the time. As for Fed fans being arrogant? Well hell yes. We're fortunate to support the biggest baddest MFer who's ever played the game, I'm not apologising for that. I just think you guys should accept your place with a little more grace :lol6:
 

DarthFed

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I'm not sure I'd describe myself as too arrogant, maybe a little. I do describe myself as the greediest mofo you'd ever hope to meet and I make no apologies for it. It's definitely a good trait for Roger to have. The second your greed goes down as a competitor is when you are at a serious disadvantage. In Roger's head he knows he hasn't done enough because 19 is nothing if a certain guy hits 20.
 

brokenshoelace

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I'm not sure I'd describe myself as too arrogant, maybe a little. I do describe myself as the greediest mofo you'd ever hope to meet and I make no apologies for it. It's definitely a good trait for Roger to have. The second your greed goes down as a competitor is when you are at a serious disadvantage. In Roger's head he knows he hasn't done enough because 19 is nothing if a certain guy hits 20.

Sports fans are greedy. I want my guy/team to win everything, and no amount of winning makes me satisfied and accepting of future defeats. Arrogance however is when you look back in hindsight and don't accept certain losses for reasons relating to arrogance. Case in point, "Roger should not lose to Nadal at Wimbledon due to the gap in resume on grass." Well, in that case, he should win Wimbledon every year ever, and shouldn't lose to anyone there.
 
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DarthFed

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Sports fans are greedy. I want my guy/team to win everything, and no amount of winning makes me satisfied and accepting of future defeats. Arrogance however is when you look back in hindsight and don't accept certain losses for reasons relating to arrogance. Case in point, "Roger should not lose to Nadal at Wimbledon due to the gap in resume on grass." Well, in that case, he should win Wimbledon every year ever, and shouldn't lose to anyone there.

I wasn't just talking about greed as a sports fan though. But in regards to tennis I find it funny when people ask what keeps Federer going. It'd be one thing if the main rivals had zero chance of catching up, the fact of the matter is 19 is far from safe just as I said 17 wasn't either. Federer can't rest well for another couple years at least.

Yes I know Federer couldn't win every Wimbledon but he should've done a lot better that day. He was just going on 27 at the time and it's telling when you see him play a lot better on grass during many matches in his early to mid 30's than he did that day. But when you win 65 in a row on a surface any loss by definition is a weak loss. Same with Rafa losing to Fed or Djoker on clay especially if it happened at RG at age 26 or 27.

So yes even in one of the worst moments of his career (2008) he should've taken care of Rafa at Wimbledon with little problem.
 

the AntiPusher

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I wasn't just talking about greed as a sports fan though. But in regards to tennis I find it funny when people ask what keeps Federer going. It'd be one thing if the main rivals had zero chance of catching up, the fact of the matter is 19 is far from safe just as I said 17 wasn't either. Federer can't rest well for another couple years at least.

Yes I know Federer couldn't win every Wimbledon but he should've done a lot better that day. He was just going on 27 at the time and it's telling when you see him play a lot better on grass during many matches in his early to mid 30's than he did that day. But when you win 65 in a row on a surface any loss by definition is a weak loss. Same with Rafa losing to Fed or Djoker on clay especially if it happened at RG at age 26 or 27.

So yes even in one of the worst moments of his career (2008) he should've taken care of Rafa at Wimbledon with little problem.
You keep dangling that 2008 carrot hoping to get one of us to chase you down that rabbit hole.. not me today
 

DarthFed

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You keep dangling that 2008 carrot hoping to get one of us to chase you down that rabbit hole.. not me today

Just differences of opinion my friend. I know many of you Rafa fans think that was the best match Roger ever played and he should be thrilled he narrowly lost to a player who lost to 4 guys ranked below 100 before he was 30.
 

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Guys, there are so many factors that go into winning or losing a match. In the end, there's a winner and there's a loser. Some matches--like that 2008 Wimbledon final--really could have gone either way. Every player has painful matches that "coulda-shoulda" gone another way, "If only"...and that final was clearly one of them for Roger. But we also have to give Rafa credit merely for creating the opportunity to hang with Roger on grass. In the end, he won and deserved to win.

Sometimes the best player (on a given surface) doesn't win. But it is always the best player on that day that does, so give Rafa credit for being just a hair better than Roger on that day.
 

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Guys, there are so many factors that go into winning or losing a match. In the end, there's a winner and there's a loser. Some matches--like that 2008 Wimbledon final--really could have gone either way. Every player has painful matches that "coulda-shoulda" gone another way, "If only"...and that final was clearly one of them for Roger. But we also have to give Rafa credit merely for creating the opportunity to hang with Roger on grass. In the end, he won and deserved to win.

Sometimes the best player (on a given surface) doesn't win. But it is always the best player on that day that does, so give Rafa credit for being just a hair better than Roger on that day.

Roger himself has said that he played the first 2 sets wrong because Nadal was still in his head after the FO "beat down" - Roger's own word - and it coming back from 2 sets down was just too big a task - especially with the light running out. So him losing that match makes complete since. I never bother revisiting that loss because I remember spending the first 2 1/2-3 sets screaming at the TV that his tactics sucked and why was he doing X, Y or Z. I think Roger was much guiltier 10 years ago of over-thinking a match than he is now. He was asked the press conference in IW this year bout similarities between himself and Kyrgios and he said he thought they both sometimes have too many options. That's the 2008 Wimbledon loss for me in a nutshell - too many options and playing the wrong tactics. Nadal's got 1 or 2 options, sometimes as many as 3 and that's pretty much how he plays an entire match. He doesn't have 20 options for every shot. Note to Nadal fans: That doesn't diminish Nadal's win. As you said - the best player that day won. I'm just saying Federer shot himself in the foot - in multiple ways - and he knows it. After he won the AO this year I wished someone had asked him - if you could exchange the 2017 AO win for the 2008 Wimbledon win - would you do it? I kinda think he'd say no to that because he didn't play the right way in 2008 - and he did play the right way in 2017.
 

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Roger himself has said that he played the first 2 sets wrong because Nadal was still in his head after the FO "beat down" - Roger's own word - and it coming back from 2 sets down was just too big a task - especially with the light running out. So him losing that match makes complete since. I never bother revisiting that loss because I remember spending the first 2 1/2-3 sets screaming at the TV that his tactics sucked and why was he doing X, Y or Z. I think Roger was much guiltier 10 years ago of over-thinking a match than he is now. He was asked the press conference in IW this year bout similarities between himself and Kyrgios and he said he thought they both sometimes have too many options. That's the 2008 Wimbledon loss for me in a nutshell - too many options and playing the wrong tactics. Nadal's got 1 or 2 options, sometimes as many as 3 and that's pretty much how he plays an entire match. He doesn't have 20 options for every shot. Note to Nadal fans: That doesn't diminish Nadal's win. As you said - the best player that day won. I'm just saying Federer shot himself in the foot - in multiple ways - and he knows it. After he won the AO this year I wished someone had asked him - if you could exchange the 2017 AO win for the 2008 Wimbledon win - would you do it? I kinda think he'd say no to that because he didn't play the right way in 2008 - and he did play the right way in 2017.

Don't remind me about the darkness! I used to live about a 3minute walk away from the courts at Wimbledon. It was really really dark. I couldn't believe they hadn't stopped it at around 3 all in the 5th
 
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atttomole

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I agree that Roger fans come off as arrogant, and I think it is because of the high expectations we have for Roger, considering his imposing game. On a personal level, I think Roger should have won more than 20 slams by now. Slams that come to mind for me include AO 2008 and UO 2009. At Wimbledon 2008, I agree that Roger's confidence was very low after the meltdown at the French Open, and other losses to Nadal before that. Therefore, our apparent arrogance is simply the high expectations we have for Roger, and I do understand that it rubs many people the wrong way.
 
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brokenshoelace

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The problem I have with someone claiming Roger shouldn't have lost to Nadal at Wimbledon in 2008 is that it ignores pretty much all the common wisdom we know about tennis through years of watching.

In 2007, when Roger beat Nadal in 5 sets in the final, nobody had much criticism to offer about Federer. He played well throughout the match, served fantastic, but was forced to sweat and looked to be in trouble at one point in the fifth set due to coming up against a great player playing great tennis. It was that simple. Roger won, but Nadal was close and blew break point opportunities in the fifth. Nobody said Roger shouldn't have gone to 5 sets with Nadal. Everyone, including Roger fans, just gave both players props, and recognized that Nadal was improving on grass and could catch up soon.

Fast forward a year: Nadal is playing his best ever tennis. He's the most in-form player in the world, dominated the clay season again, and just humiliated Roger in the final. Capitalizing on that momentum, he wins his first grass court title in Queens by playing some tremendous tennis, and EVERYONE thought he's the co-favorite to win Wimbledon. Again, revisionist historians may attempt to change that, but I distinctly remember the feeling coming into Wimbledon in 2008, and it really felt like it might be Nadal's time due to his form, his mental edge over Roger, in addition to Fed's relatively inconsistent form by his standards.

So the players meet in the final. It goes 5 again, only this time, the player who actually improved over the past 12 months and was sky high in confidence beat the player who regressed and was struggling with confidence and mental demons against this particular opponent. To me, that loss makes sense, and looking at it with the benefit of hindsight and only boiling it down to grass court pedigree is disingenuous. Nadal was in the middle of reaching 5 consecutive Wimbledon finals, so clearly he was very good on grass during that period, and somehow ignoring that because he's struggled in the past few years makes no sense. Meanwhile, while Roger at his best should obviously beat Nadal on grass, players are not always at their best. Yes, Roger has defied every common belief about tennis but even he cannot play great all the time. He was not playing very well for the first 2 sets that year. That much is undeniable. However, when you look at WHY he didn't play well, in the context of everything that had happened in 2008, it makes a bit of sense.

And also, let's keep in mind that he really stepped it up in the last 3 sets and still couldn't break Nadal once. So the idea, mainly put forward by Darth, that Nadal didn't need to play particularly well that match is nonsense. It's funny how you guys ignore that Roger was largely outplayed from the baseline by Nadal in the 2007 final, and none of you would say Roger didn't play great then. So a little more props for Nadal, please, and look at it this way: Both the 2007 and 2008 finals went to 5 sets but had different outcomes. The more in form/better player those years won and it makes perfect sense, as tennis matches between evenly matched players boil down to small details that make all the difference (confidence, playing key points better, etc...).

This idea that Roger should have beaten Nadal easily is laughable. He didn't even beat him THAT easily in 2006, when Nadal had literally played fewer than 10 grass court matches IN HIS CAREER! In fact, Nadal was up a break in the second set and blew it, losing on a tie-break, then went back and won the third. I won't go as far as saying he could have been 2 sets to 1 up, as Roger crushed him in the first set and picked his level up in the fourth in a way that made it impossible for Nadal to do much, but it's funny how even that year, it wasn't such a routine victory, and every year since, Nadal improved a step, culminating with the 2008 win.
 
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DarthFed

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I wouldn't say Fed played great in 2007. He served great and was clutch/aggressive in the 5th set but that was it. Part of what made the first two sets of 08 infuriating is that he should've known he needed to be more aggressive, more bold because he was way too inconsistent from the ground to win any long rallies vs Rafa by the time 2008 came along. Fed stepped up the last few sets of that match a bit through just going for his shots but even then I didn't find his play to be great aside from the 3rd set TB and last few points of the 4th set TB. Aside from that he was too hit or miss and the ROS was terrible start to finish that match. He made Nadal look like Sampras.
 

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The problem I have with someone claiming Roger shouldn't have lost to Nadal at Wimbledon in 2008 is that it ignores pretty much all the common wisdom we know about tennis through years of watching.

In 2007, when Roger beat Nadal in 5 sets in the final, nobody had much criticism to offer about Federer. He played well throughout the match, served fantastic, but was forced to sweat and looked to be in trouble at one point in the fifth set due to coming up against a great player playing great tennis. It was that simple. Roger won, but Nadal was close and blew break point opportunities in the fifth. Nobody said Roger shouldn't have gone to 5 sets with Nadal. Everyone, including Roger fans, just gave both players props, and recognized that Nadal was improving on grass and could catch up soon.

Fast forward a year: Nadal is playing his best ever tennis. He's the most in-form player in the world, dominated the clay season again, and just humiliated Roger in the final. Capitalizing on that moment, he wins his first grass court title in Queens by playing some tremendous tennis, and EVERYONE thought he's the co-favorite to win Wimbledon. Again, revisionist historians may attempt to change that, but I distinctly remember the feeling coming into Wimbledon in 2008, and it really felt like it might be Nadal's time due to his form, his mental edge over Roger, in addition to Fed's relatively inconsistent form by his standards.

So the players meet in the final. It goes 5 again, only this time, the player who actually improved over the past 12 months and was sky high in confidence beat the player who regressed and was struggling with confidence and mental demons against this particular opponent. To me, that loss makes sense, and looking at it with the benefit of hindsight and only boiling it down to grass court pedigree is disingenuous. Nadal was in the middle of reaching 5 consecutive Wimbledon finals, so clearly he was very good on grass during that period, and somehow ignoring that because he's struggled in the past few years makes no sense. Meanwhile, while Roger at his best should obviously beat Nadal on grass, players are not always at their best. Yes, Roger has defied every common belief about tennis but even he cannot play great all the time. He was not playing very well for the first 2 sets that year. That much is undeniable. However, when you look at WHY he didn't play well, in the context of everything that had happened in 2008, it makes a bit of sense.

And also, let's keep in mind that he really stepped it up in the last 3 sets and still couldn't break Nadal once. So the idea, mainly put forward by Darth, that Nadal didn't need to play particularly well that match is nonsense. It's funny how you guys ignore that Roger was largely outplayed from the baseline by Nadal in the 2007 final, and none of you would say Roger didn't play great then. So a little more props for Nadal, please, and look at it this way: Both the 2007 and 2008 finals went to 5 sets but had different outcomes. The more in form/better player those years won and it makes perfect sense, as tennis matches between evenly matched players boil down to small details that make all the difference (confidence, playing key points better, etc...).

This idea that Roger should have beaten Nadal easily is laughable. He didn't even beat him THAT easily in 2006, when Nadal had literally played fewer than 10 grass court matches IN HIS CAREER! In fact, Nadal was up a break in the second set and blew it, losing on a tie-break, then went back and won the third. I won't go as far as saying he could have been 2 sets to 1 up, as Roger crushed him in the first set and picked his level up in the fourth in a way that made it impossible for Nadal to do much, but it's funny how even that year, it wasn't such a routine victory, and every year since, Nadal improved a step, culminating with the 2008 win.

I think I now know what I find so objectionable about some of what you're saying. Please refrain from saying "Fed fans" in this. This is your argument with Darth, not Fed fans. I actually don't disagree with much of what you're saying here, but find myself instinctively trying to pick holes in your treatise because you're wrongfully lumping all Fed fans together. Come on man... you don't find us accusing all Rafa fans for some of the crap Carol says.

PS, No offense DF, I'm not in anyway saying you're the Fed fan version of Carol. You just have a more "Roger should be perfect all the time" view than some of the rest of us. For my part, I've always accepted that the Fedal match up meant that Roger would not be able to show his highest level because Rafa wouldn't allow him to. I don't recall which pundit said it recently, but it's a perfect description of the dynamic. In the past Roger had to try to figure out what he needed to do when playing Rafa, while Rafa just played his normal game. This year it's flipped, now Rafa has had to try to figure out what he needs to do playing Roger, and Federer can just play his game now. And it's sweeeeeeeet...
 

DarthFed

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I think I now know what I find so objectionable about some of what you're saying. Please refrain from saying "Fed fans" in this. This is your argument with Darth, not Fed fans. I actually don't disagree with much of what you're saying here, but find myself instinctively trying to pick holes in your treatise because you're wrongfully lumping all Fed fans together. Come on man... you don't find us accusing all Rafa fans for some of the crap Carol says.

PS, No offense DF, I'm not in anyway saying you're the Fed fan version of Carol. You just have a more "Roger should be perfect all the time" view than some of the rest of us. For my part, I've always accepted that the Fedal match up meant that Roger would not be able to show his highest level because Rafa wouldn't allow him to. I don't recall which pundit said it recently, but it's a perfect description of the dynamic. In the past Roger had to try to figure out what he needed to do when playing Rafa, while Rafa just played his normal game. This year it's flipped, now Rafa has had to try to figure out what he needs to do playing Roger, and Federer can just play his game now. And it's sweeeeeeeet...

I hear you man. AP, Broken and a few others are guilty of thinking that we all have the same opinion. For me I've always been critical of Fed off of clay vs. Rafa. I still think a 13-10 record off clay is absolutely dreadful. And part of it is what you said, it's now Rafa searching for answers and why? Well because Roger isn't letting himself get bullied on the backhand wing, he's taking it earlier, and he's also going after the return which is something he should've been doing a good 8-9 years before 2017 when his ROS really started to go downhill. Roger after 2010 hasn't reinvented the wheel as his movement declined, rather he just became more and more aggressive. Sure, the bigger racquet head has helped but I think a lot of his issues was being too stubborn, not accepting he couldn't play Rafa like he did everyone else. Sometimes it's hard to get out of your comfort zone but I don't think it would have been radical for Roger to step up the aggression from 08-10.

But yeah I don't think Roger should've been so easy to beat in the finals on his best surface. Look at all the other legends, they didn't drop finals on their home court.
 

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I hear you man. AP, Broken and a few others are guilty of thinking that we all have the same opinion. For me I've always been critical of Fed off of clay vs. Rafa. I still think a 13-10 record off clay is absolutely dreadful. And part of it is what you said, it's now Rafa searching for answers and why? Well because Roger isn't letting himself get bullied on the backhand wing, he's taking it earlier, and he's also going after the return which is something he should've been doing a good 8-9 years before 2017 when his ROS really started to go downhill. Roger after 2010 hasn't reinvented the wheel as his movement declined, rather he just became more and more aggressive. Sure, the bigger racquet head has helped but I think a lot of his issues was being too stubborn, not accepting he couldn't play Rafa like he did everyone else. Sometimes it's hard to get out of your comfort zone but I don't think it would have been radical for Roger to step up the aggression from 08-10.

But yeah I don't think Roger should've been so easy to beat in the finals on his best surface. Look at all the other legends, they didn't drop finals on their home court.

Well.... Sampras losing to Edberg at Flushing. Lendl losing to Chang in the RG semis. These things happen. And if the loss is coming against the 2nd greatest player of the Open era it does add a bit of context. I think that you and Broken would argue less if you gave Rafa a bit more credit. He ain't no scrub. I'm not a fan of the dude, but I can't shut my eyes to the reality right in front of me. I just can't

But I do agree with you buddy. If I have to watch another sliced backhand return of one of those Rafa 2nd serves... :facepalm:
 
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atttomole

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Well.... Sampras losing to Edberg at Flushing. Lendl losing to Chang in the RG semis. These things happen. And if the loss is coming against the 2nd greatest player of the Open era it does add a bit of context. I think that you and Broken would argue less if you gave Rafa a bit more credit. He ain't no scrub. I'm not a fan of the dude, but I can't shut my eyes to the reality right in front of me. I just can't

But I do agree with you buddy. If I have to watch another sliced backhand return of one of those Rafa 2nd serves... :facepalm:

I remember we have discussed this before. Darth is referring to losses in finals at grand slams, which I think is a bit unfair because Roger can not be penalized for reaching too many finals. Its a matter of numbers. The more finals he reaches, the more he is likely to lose. I don't think Sampras should get credit for losing to Krajicek before the Wimbledon finals, while Federer is blasted for losing to Nadal/Djokovic/Potro in finals. In a sport where a top player can be sent packing at any stage of the tournament if they play below par, I think Roger should get more credit for reaching so many grand slam finals. Its actually part of Roger's greatness.
 
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brokenshoelace

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I think I now know what I find so objectionable about some of what you're saying. Please refrain from saying "Fed fans" in this. This is your argument with Darth, not Fed fans. I actually don't disagree with much of what you're saying here, but find myself instinctively trying to pick holes in your treatise because you're wrongfully lumping all Fed fans together. Come on man... you don't find us accusing all Rafa fans for some of the crap Carol says.

PS, No offense DF, I'm not in anyway saying you're the Fed fan version of Carol. You just have a more "Roger should be perfect all the time" view than some of the rest of us. For my part, I've always accepted that the Fedal match up meant that Roger would not be able to show his highest level because Rafa wouldn't allow him to. I don't recall which pundit said it recently, but it's a perfect description of the dynamic. In the past Roger had to try to figure out what he needed to do when playing Rafa, while Rafa just played his normal game. This year it's flipped, now Rafa has had to try to figure out what he needs to do playing Roger, and Federer can just play his game now. And it's sweeeeeeeet...

It's not just @DarthFed though. I've had long arguments with him, Front an Cali about this. I guess the latter is not your typical Fed fan but let's just say that the most vocal Nadal detractors on these boards all share the same opinion about this, and you actually fall in the minority.
 

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It's not just @DarthFed though. I've had long arguments with him, Front an Cali about this. I guess the latter is not your typical Fed fan but let's just say that the most vocal Nadal detractors on these boards all share the same opinion about this, and you actually fall in the minority.

I think that a large part of that is actually retaliation from some Fed fans. There is a strong belief amongst Federer supporters that for the longest time, Rafa fans seemed to believe that Rafa only lost because of injuries. As arrogant as Fed fans are, I think it pales in comparison to that conceit. I for one am willing to accept Roger's shortcomings and losses, but the woulda coulda that comes from Rafa fans can be quite infuriating. The implication seems to be that if it wasn't for his injuries he would be the best of them all. This is sport. The greats pay a price for the way they play. Rafa with his attritional style, Roger with his refusal to change a winning formula. This is what happens. The funny thing is I rather suspect that the players accept the choices they've made, but we fans have a great difficulty doing this
 

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In addition, some Rafa fans like to defend his gamesmanship. While some of his old habits such as taking fake MTO's are gone, Rafa still likes to make opponents wait. The dawdling could be due to some superstition.