The two week gap (previously ) between French and Wimbledon

[Moxie]

I have no recollection of that, and nothing comes up in a google search, but perhaps you can provide something on Nadal getting the calendar changed. Much appreciated.

If you don't have a recollection of it, you should say so and not accuse me of making it up.
In 2010, the three clay masters tourneys were played on alternate weeks. Rafa did not like that as that would mean that he has to play for three consecutive weeks as he wants to play in Barcelona. In fact he withdrew from Barcelona that year. Here is his announcement when he did so.

“I am really sorry not to be able to play in Barcelona, more than any other tournament, but this year after the win in Monte Carlo my body is asking me to rest,” Nadal said in a statement to the tournament from his PR rep. “I repeat that I’m especially sorry not to play there, because I would like it to be understood that it really is that way, because it is played in my club and it is my home tournament. I have said on many occasions that the tennis calendar, specifically the clay court season, is badly structured and my not being able to compete in Barcelona is a consequence of that. I want to extend my thanks in advance to the members of the club, the organizers of the tournament, and all of the fans for their understanding. Tomorrow I will be in Barcelona and will be available for the organizers.”

BTW, this is just one example. He complained multiple times vociferously leading to change of
schedule from the following year.

I have no idea what you think that proves as to your notion that Rafa single-handedly muscled the ATP into changing the calendar.

Words have lost meaning around here. People can pretty much throw "facts" while talking out of their ass. Any basis to anything you're saying? And no, Nadal complaining is hardly proof.

Get real, So do you want ATP to announce the modified schedule stating explicitly that "Here is the modified schedule. We caved in as Rafa complained". :laydownlaughinguzzled

There's nothing to get real about. Players unanimously complained about the difference in the surface between Madrid and Paris so the tournaments were reversed to move Rome closer to Paris as the surfaces play the same.

But no yeah, Nadal really needed the ATP's help during the clay court season throughout all these years. The struggle is real...

If GSM is talking about the issues surrounding the general displeasure with the Madrid Open, and the blue clay was part of it, here is an article that supports your point that Nadal was not the only one to give voice to it: Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic threaten Madrid Open snub. This was from the BBC, and in the body of the article, Federer is also quoted as having been against the surface. Also of note: the article is from May 2012, when the World #1 was Djokovic, who presumably had a great deal of sway himself.

@GSM: You seem to have extravagantly spun a story to suit your narrative that the ATP changed their scheduling to make it more favorable to Nadal, and this because he forced them in some back-room negotiation. Now I will say it again...you made that up. It's disingenuous and sneaky to make a statement largely based on your own interpolations, and then just hope no one holds your feet to the fire on it, and that the mud sticks.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Words have lost meaning around here. People can pretty much throw "facts" while talking out of their ass. Any basis to anything you're saying? And no, Nadal complaining is hardly proof.

Get real, So do you want ATP to announce the modified schedule stating explicitly that "Here is the modified schedule. We caved in as Rafa complained". :laydownlaughinguzzled

There's nothing to get real about. Players unanimously complained about the difference in the surface between Madrid and Paris so the tournaments were reversed to move Rome closer to Paris as the surfaces play the same.

But no yeah, Nadal really needed the ATP's help during the clay court season throughout all these years. The struggle is real...

You are talking about a different issue. The switching of Madrid and Rome. There was indeed unanimous consensus about it and it is a good idea. I had already stated so in my previous post
itself.

@Moxie - You were also talking about the other issue of switching Madrid and Rome. I have already shown you Rafa's own quotes within quotemarks. I don't understand what more you want.

The ATP originally (after the introduction of Madrid and partly in view of the infamous 2006 Rome/Hamburg fiasco after which both Rafa and Roger dropped out of Hamburg) wanted to keep the three Clay Masters in Non-consecutive weeks. In fact, that is how the schedule was made for 2010 and that is how it was played that year. But, that meant Rafa had to play for three weeks in a row as he always played in Barcelona. He did not like that and he vehemently protested that and ATP caved in. I have already stated this also in my previous email.

Also, the schedules are available in ATP website. You can see the schedule of 2010 and 2011 and the changes in them.

 

[Moxie]

Get real, So do you want ATP to announce the modified schedule stating explicitly that "Here is the modified schedule. We caved in as Rafa complained". :laydownlaughinguzzled

There's nothing to get real about. Players unanimously complained about the difference in the surface between Madrid and Paris so the tournaments were reversed to move Rome closer to Paris as the surfaces play the same.

But no yeah, Nadal really needed the ATP's help during the clay court season throughout all these years. The struggle is real...

You are talking about a different issue. The switching of Madrid and Rome. There was indeed unanimous consensus about it and it is a good idea. I had already stated so in my previous post
itself.

@Moxie - You were also talking about the other issue of switching Madrid and Rome. I have already shown you Rafa's own quotes within quotemarks. I don't understand what more you want.

The ATP originally (after the introduction of Madrid and partly in view of the infamous 2006 Rome/Hamburg fiasco after which both Rafa and Roger dropped out of Hamburg) wanted to keep the three Clay Masters in Non-consecutive weeks. In fact, that is how the schedule was made for 2010 and that is how it was played that year. But, that meant Rafa had to play for three weeks in a row as he always played in Barcelona. He did not like that and he vehemently protested that and ATP caved in. I have already stated this also in my previous email.

Also, the schedules are available in ATP website. You can see the schedule of 2010 and 2011 and the changes in them.

Don't make everyone else do the leg-work. You've made this claim long enough with no back up. You kind of owe us all a link to something, at the very least. Charting the changes in the calendar doesn't prove that anyone but the ATP influenced them. In the same way that Rafa lamenting that he can't play Barcelona in his official statement and complaining about the calendar proves anything, either. You might show us year-by-year how the calendar changed, and provide some quotes to show how that was influenced specifically by Nadal, as a suggestion. Either you have a smoking gun, or you are blowing smoke.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

ATP website is crazy right now due to new version and I cannot get the old schedules from there. I sure will post the calendars and how they changed over the years. But, as an ardent follower of Rafa, you should be able to remember the sequence of events.

BTW, no need to be overly sensitive here. Rafa lobbied for what he wanted and being a top clay player, he got his wishes. There is nothing wrong with a player lobbying for a schedule that is conducive to him.

 

[Front242]

The ATP are hardly going to be quoted as saying Mr. Nadal is moaning (again) about the long schedule so we've given in to his demands and changed the calendar so he can go back home to go fishing with his uncle. Be real. Sometimes people need to read between the lines.

 

[Fiero425]

The ATP are hardly going to be quoted as saying Mr. Nadal is moaning (again) about the long schedule so we've given in to his demands and changed the calendar so he can go back home to go fishing with his uncle. Be real. Sometimes people need to read between the lines.

But everyone knows the top players are like that; looking out for themselves! They don't realize the rest of the tour need every event possible to acquire $$$ and points! It's always been this way; constant kvetchin' about the long seasons on both ladies and gents' tour, but the most caterwauling comes from the top players that win! Typical! :nono :angel: :dodgy:

 

[Moxie]

ATP website is crazy right now due to new version and I cannot get the old schedules from there. I sure will post the calendars and how they changed over the years. But, as an ardent follower of Rafa, you should be able to remember the sequence of events.

BTW, no need to be overly sensitive here. Rafa lobbied for what he wanted and being a top clay player, he got his wishes. There is nothing wrong with a player lobbying for a schedule that is conducive to him.

As an ardent follower of Rafa, that's why I told you I had no idea what you are talking about. It's takes reading from a bias like yours to see it the way you did, imo. I'll look forward to your "proofs" when you can come up with them, but remember that ATP isn't your only resource. And I'm not being "overly-sensitive." I'm trying to get you to back up a fairly damning claim, which I think is fair.

The ATP are hardly going to be quoted as saying Mr. Nadal is moaning (again) about the long schedule so we've given in to his demands and changed the calendar so he can go back home to go fishing with his uncle. Be real. Sometimes people need to read between the lines.

If someone wants to present a theory that they have gleaned by "reading between the lines," that's not wrong, but it should also be presented as theory, not as bald fact, and needs to come with substantial back-up.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

The ATP are hardly going to be quoted as saying Mr. Nadal is moaning (again) about the long schedule so we've given in to his demands and changed the calendar so he can go back home to go fishing with his uncle. Be real. Sometimes people need to read between the lines.

If someone wants to present a theory that they have gleaned by "reading between the lines," that's not wrong, but it should also be presented as theory, not as bald fact, and needs to come with substantial back-up.

Might be wise for you follow the advice you are giving to others. You criticized lacath's reading comprehension and claimed there had been a reproachment between Rafa and Bernardo citing a
NY Times article that you posted. In fact, that article clearly said that reproachment is unlikely at this stage. When, he pointed out, instead of doing a mea culpa first, you claimed that was your opinion and you have every right to your opinion. On the contrary, lacatch clearly delineated his opinion and facts.:nono

 

[GameSetAndMath]

ATP website is crazy at the moment. So, I give you the schedules form Wiki.

Here is 2010 ATP Calendar .
Note that the three Clay Masters are scheduled in such a manner that no two of them happen in consecutive weeks. This is how ATP wanted to have it, to avoid burnout for top players having to play in consecutive weeks.

Week 1: Houston/Africa
Week 2: Montecarlo
Week 3: Barcelona
Week 4: Rome
Week 5: Three 250 tourneys
Week 6: Madrid
Week 7: Two small tourneys - this is the week before RG

Rafa did not like this idea, as he wants to play in Barcelona and that would mean playing for three consecutive weeks and he did not want to play for three consecutive weeks. In fact, after winning MC, Rafa dropped out of Barcelona and slammed the calendar .

Here is 2011 ATP Calendar .

Week 1: Houston/Africa
Week 2: Monte Carlo
Week 3: Barcelona
Week 4: Three 250 tourneys
Week 5: Madrid
Week 6: Rome
Week 7: Two small tourneys - this is the week before RG

Now, Rafa is happy he gets to play MC and Barcelona for 2 weeks, gets rest for a week and then plays Madrid and Rome for 2 weeks, gets rest for a week and then plays RG.

There are two significant changes here.

One is switching the order of Madrid and Rome. That one was unanimously supported by all players as Rome is closer to RG in terms of surface. However, the other change (dropping the idea of not having two Masters consecutively) was done primarily to accommodate Rafa.

 

[Moxie]

ATP website is crazy at the moment. So, I give you the schedules form Wiki.

Here is 2010 ATP Calendar .
Note that the three Clay Masters are scheduled in such a manner that no two of them happen in consecutive weeks. This is how ATP wanted to have it, to avoid burnout for top players having to play in consecutive weeks.

Week 1: Houston/Africa
Week 2: Montecarlo
Week 3: Barcelona
Week 4: Rome
Week 5: Three 250 tourneys
Week 6: Madrid
Week 7: Two small tourneys - this is the week before RG

Rafa did not like this idea, as he wants to play in Barcelona and that would mean playing for three consecutive weeks and he did not want to play for three consecutive weeks. In fact, after winning MC, Rafa dropped out of Barcelona and slammed the calendar .

Here is 2011 ATP Calendar .

Week 1: Houston/Africa
Week 2: Monte Carlo
Week 3: Barcelona
Week 4: Three 250 tourneys
Week 5: Madrid
Week 6: Rome
Week 7: Two small tourneys - this is the week before RG

Now, Rafa is happy he gets to play MC and Barcelona for 2 weeks, gets rest for a week and then plays Madrid and Rome for 2 weeks, gets rest for a week and then plays RG.

There are two significant changes here.

One is switching the order of Madrid and Rome. That one was unanimously supported by all players as Rome is closer to RG in terms of surface. However, the other change (dropping the idea of not having two Masters consecutively) was done primarily to accommodate Rafa.

I appreciate the effort in putting this down. I still think that you lack a link to an article that puts this change on Nadal, but, more importantly, I think there is a flaw in your logic as to why this change is important to Nadal, or the only option.

I think the significant change, and objection, still comes with not making Madrid the last MS before RG. If you look at the schedule, according to your logic, Nadal would play MC, Barcelona, Rome, (break) then Madrid in 2010. With the next schedule: MC, Barcelona, (break) Madrid, Rome. What is the benefit? And, if the ATP had preferred not to put 2 MS back-to-back, and the players didn't want to play Madrid right before RG, it could have been: MC, Barcelona, Madrid, (break), Rome. You're making too much of Rafa wanting to play Barcelona and then get a break. It's a 500. Why would he want to play 2 x 1000s back to back? Why is that a better schedule for him, especially at a time when he was likely to win both, or play in the final? Barcelona has always been something that he's shoe-horned into his schedule because he wants to play it. The bigger difference is that he didn't always play Hamburg, but he was pressured to play Madrid, and this did make Barcelona harder for him to fit in.

That said, I don't think you make a strong case as to why Rafa would be especially interested in affecting the calendar as it is now. If he wants to play in Barcelona, he's always going to play an extra week. And, again, all the players pushed for the last (big) tune-up to be Rome before RG. I see neither a scandal, nor an especial benefit to Nadal in the calendar switch.

 

[brokenshoelace]

It ain't about grass feet or an extra week for Rafa. With his game he will always be vulnerable even to scrubs the first week of Wimbledon. That topspin doesn't kick up as high and it's harder to play great defense and simply outlast the nobodies of the tour. The difference between him narrowly escaping the weaklings in his prime vs. the ugly losses the last 3 years is due to the loss of a step.

The fatigue/lack of grass court practice excuse is just all too convenient.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Think about this logically for a second. Nadal is vulnerable in the first week of Wimbledon. That much is undeniable. He could have 10 grass court matches under his belt before Wimbledon and still be vulnerable. Again, this is a fact.

But what you're saying implies that it could in no way help him. The truth is, he's even MORE vulnerable without getting a few grass court matches under his belt. Do you know the one time Nadal didn't win a single match at Wimbledon? 2013, when he lost to Steve Darcis in the first round, after having skipped Halle.

Of all his Wimbledon losses, that was by far the worst. He wasn't playing a big hitter or a big server. He was playing against a legit 5 footer with a one handed backhand and no fire power. He was also in the middle of one of the best runs of his career. Confidence, form, and health. And yet he gets straight setted.

You're telling me that without a few grass court matches to get him up to speed he couldn't have beaten the mighty Darcis?

I understand it's a Nadal hate-fest season around here but these posts are making less and less sense.

Winning helps you build confidence. Remember Nadal at Queens 2008? When he clobbered Roddick and Djokovic to win the title? So he's vulnerable in the first week of Wimbledon to "scrubs" but he's not vulnerable in the first (and only) week of Queens to legit major winners? Truth is, he's vulnerable to both, but the more he plays and potentially wins, the less vulnerable he is.

 

[brokenshoelace]

The ATP are hardly going to be quoted as saying Mr. Nadal is moaning (again) about the long schedule so we've given in to his demands and changed the calendar so he can go back home to go fishing with his uncle. Be real. Sometimes people need to read between the lines.

Dude, EVERYONE, yes, EVERYONE was demanding a longer grass court season, including Federer.

Stop with this nonsense already. These are facts. It takes a quick google search. Do it.

 

[Front242]

The ATP are hardly going to be quoted as saying Mr. Nadal is moaning (again) about the long schedule so we've given in to his demands and changed the calendar so he can go back home to go fishing with his uncle. Be real. Sometimes people need to read between the lines.

Dude, EVERYONE, yes, EVERYONE was demanding a longer grass court season, including Federer.

Stop with this nonsense already. These are facts. It takes a quick google search. Do it.

Yeah and wtf does that have to do with the scheduling of the clay events? No one has to play all the events Nadal plays on clay and most play nowhere near as many as he does. So clearly it benefits him most to alter the clay schedule. Logical people would assume a 9 time French Open champion has some pull with the ITF/ATP in changing the calendar when they already do stuff like banning umpires from his matches. He chooses to play them all 'cos up until this year it was where he scored most of his points. They could put more grass events after Wimbledon if they wanted to so there's no nonsense here and no google search needed.

 

[brokenshoelace]

The ATP are hardly going to be quoted as saying Mr. Nadal is moaning (again) about the long schedule so we've given in to his demands and changed the calendar so he can go back home to go fishing with his uncle. Be real. Sometimes people need to read between the lines.

Dude, EVERYONE, yes, EVERYONE was demanding a longer grass court season, including Federer.

Stop with this nonsense already. These are facts. It takes a quick google search. Do it.

Yeah and wtf does that have to do with the scheduling of the clay events? No one has to play all the events Nadal plays on clay and most play nowhere near as many as he does. So clearly it benefits him most to alter the clay schedule. Logical people would assume a 9 time French Open champion has some pull with the ITF/ATP in changing the calendar when they already do stuff like banning umpires from his matches. He chooses to play them all 'cos up until this year it was where he scored most of his points. They could put more grass events after Wimbledon if they wanted to so there's no nonsense here and no google search needed.

None of this is backed up by anything. Zero. Like, literally, no proof whatsoever.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

ATP website is crazy at the moment. So, I give you the schedules form Wiki.

Here is 2010 ATP Calendar .
Note that the three Clay Masters are scheduled in such a manner that no two of them happen in consecutive weeks. This is how ATP wanted to have it, to avoid burnout for top players having to play in consecutive weeks.

Week 1: Houston/Africa
Week 2: Montecarlo
Week 3: Barcelona
Week 4: Rome
Week 5: Three 250 tourneys
Week 6: Madrid
Week 7: Two small tourneys - this is the week before RG

Rafa did not like this idea, as he wants to play in Barcelona and that would mean playing for three consecutive weeks and he did not want to play for three consecutive weeks. In fact, after winning MC, Rafa dropped out of Barcelona and slammed the calendar .

Here is 2011 ATP Calendar .

Week 1: Houston/Africa
Week 2: Monte Carlo
Week 3: Barcelona
Week 4: Three 250 tourneys
Week 5: Madrid
Week 6: Rome
Week 7: Two small tourneys - this is the week before RG

Now, Rafa is happy he gets to play MC and Barcelona for 2 weeks, gets rest for a week and then plays Madrid and Rome for 2 weeks, gets rest for a week and then plays RG.

There are two significant changes here.

One is switching the order of Madrid and Rome. That one was unanimously supported by all players as Rome is closer to RG in terms of surface. However, the other change (dropping the idea of not having two Masters consecutively) was done primarily to accommodate Rafa.

I appreciate the effort in putting this down. I still think that you lack a link to an article that puts this change on Nadal, but, more importantly, I think there is a flaw in your logic as to why this change is important to Nadal, or the only option.

I think the significant change, and objection, still comes with not making Madrid the last MS before RG. If you look at the schedule, according to your logic, Nadal would play MC, Barcelona, Rome, (break) then Madrid in 2010. With the next schedule: MC, Barcelona, (break) Madrid, Rome. What is the benefit? And, if the ATP had preferred not to put 2 MS back-to-back, and the players didn't want to play Madrid right before RG, it could have been: MC, Barcelona, Madrid, (break), Rome. You're making too much of Rafa wanting to play Barcelona and then get a break. It's a 500. Why would he want to play 2 x 1000s back to back? Why is that a better schedule for him, especially at a time when he was likely to win both, or play in the final? Barcelona has always been something that he's shoe-horned into his schedule because he wants to play it. The bigger difference is that he didn't always play Hamburg, but he was pressured to play Madrid, and this did make Barcelona harder for him to fit in.

That said, I don't think you make a strong case as to why Rafa would be especially interested in affecting the calendar as it is now. If he wants to play in Barcelona, he's always going to play an extra week. And, again, all the players pushed for the last (big) tune-up to be Rome before RG. I see neither a scandal, nor an especial benefit to Nadal in the calendar switch.

Nothing can convince you, as you are totally ignoring the facts even after they are given to you. You are, as usual, basing it on your projections of what Nadal would want etc, instead of looking at what actually happened. I have already told you many times as to why it benefits Rafa. It is because he does not have to play three weeks in a row. Just to suit his convenience, all the rest are made to play two Masters in a row. That is a fact. You can choose to ignore it and that does not change it.

Rafa says clearly:
"I have said on repeated occasions that the tennis calendar, especially this part of the claycourt season, is poorly thought out and not playing in Barcelona, I feel, is a consequence of this." . So, if the schedule is kept as is (even with switching of Madrid and Rome), it would have meant Rafa would not be able to play his beloved Barcelona tourney.

 

[brokenshoelace]

According to this thread, us Rafa fans should be expecting the WTF to be played on clay and a 2 year ranking system to be implemented any day now.

 

[Front242]

Dude, EVERYONE, yes, EVERYONE was demanding a longer grass court season, including Federer.

Stop with this nonsense already. These are facts. It takes a quick google search. Do it.

Yeah and wtf does that have to do with the scheduling of the clay events? No one has to play all the events Nadal plays on clay and most play nowhere near as many as he does. So clearly it benefits him most to alter the clay schedule. Logical people would assume a 9 time French Open champion has some pull with the ITF/ATP in changing the calendar when they already do stuff like banning umpires from his matches. He chooses to play them all 'cos up until this year it was where he scored most of his points. They could put more grass events after Wimbledon if they wanted to so there's no nonsense here and no google search needed.

None of this is backed up by anything. Zero. Like, literally, no proof whatsoever.

Use your head. Do you reckon they changed it 'cos a player ranked 1000+ asked or 'cos maybe the 9 time French Open champion objected? I know it's a tough one to think about but give it a shot. You won't get proof as has been pointed out 'cos sports governing bodies don't usually proclaim: "Hey world, we changed the tennis calendar 'cos grumpy here asked us".

 

[GameSetAndMath]

According to this thread, us Rafa fans should be expecting the WTF to be played on clay and a 2 year ranking system to be implemented any day now.

I expected this coming. Just because Rafa was not successful in convincing ATP of the above two stupid suggestions, does not mean that he convinced ATP to use the current version of clay schedule.
When you cannot find fault, you try to talk about irrelevant stuff. Nobody said he can convince ATP of whatever he wants.

Why does it have to be ALL or NOTHING?

 

[GameSetAndMath]

It ain't about grass feet or an extra week for Rafa. With his game he will always be vulnerable even to scrubs the first week of Wimbledon. That topspin doesn't kick up as high and it's harder to play great defense and simply outlast the nobodies of the tour. The difference between him narrowly escaping the weaklings in his prime vs. the ugly losses the last 3 years is due to the loss of a step.

The fatigue/lack of grass court practice excuse is just all too convenient.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Think about this logically for a second. Nadal is vulnerable in the first week of Wimbledon. That much is undeniable. He could have 10 grass court matches under his belt before Wimbledon and still be vulnerable. Again, this is a fact.

But what you're saying implies that it could in no way help him. The truth is, he's even MORE vulnerable without getting a few grass court matches under his belt.

I agree with this. I think it is simple to realize that more grass match wins under his belt before Wimbledon, he will be less vulnerable there.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

The ATP are hardly going to be quoted as saying Mr. Nadal is moaning (again) about the long schedule so we've given in to his demands and changed the calendar so he can go back home to go fishing with his uncle. Be real. Sometimes people need to read between the lines.

Dude, EVERYONE, yes, EVERYONE was demanding a longer grass court season, including Federer.

Stop with this nonsense already. These are facts. It takes a quick google search. Do it.

You don't have patience and you are not reading other people's posts before coming up with
your snark remarks. Nobody was saying Rafa is responsible for the extended grass season. In fact, I went out of the way and mentioned explicitly in my earlier posts that Rafa has nothing to do with the grass court season extension (even though it happens to benefit him).

We were talking about the clay season schedule.