The Greatest Non-Slam Champion of the Open Era

Who is the Greatest Non-Slam Champion of the Open Era?


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Riotbeard

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federberg said:
Riotbeard said:
federberg said:
^Against the field he's better than Cilic. But on his best day... which is what is needed in a slam final, he doesn't come close to what Cilic can bring forth. But I don't think anyone would argue that his default level is higher than Marin's

I think you meant isn't higher.

No I meant his tournament to tournament level is higher than Cilic's. What I mean is that at the start of a tournament who would you think will go deeper? I think most would bet on Ferrer. But if we're talking a slam, at this stage, I suspect that most would rather place an outside punt on Cilic winning the whole thing. When Marin is good, he's better than Ferrer can ever be. But most of the time Ferrer is likely to go deeper. Does that make sense?

It does, and it's what I thought you meant, but the last sentence of your original post is "But I don't think anyone would argue that his default level is higher than Marin's." I think isn't higher than marin, because you are arguing Ferrer's default level is higher, but he has a lower ceiling, where as Marin could be the best player or worse player on tour depending on the day.
 

Federberg

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Riotbeard said:
federberg said:
Riotbeard said:
I think you meant isn't higher.

No I meant his tournament to tournament level is higher than Cilic's. What I mean is that at the start of a tournament who would you think will go deeper? I think most would bet on Ferrer. But if we're talking a slam, at this stage, I suspect that most would rather place an outside punt on Cilic winning the whole thing. When Marin is good, he's better than Ferrer can ever be. But most of the time Ferrer is likely to go deeper. Does that make sense?

It does, and it's what I thought you meant, but the last sentence of your original post is "But I don't think anyone would argue that his default level is higher than Marin's." I think isn't higher than marin, because you are arguing Ferrer's default level is higher, but he has a lower ceiling, where as Marin could be the best player or worse player on tour depending on the day.

Ooops! Sorry it's been a long Friday :snicker You're right
 

Riotbeard

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federberg said:
Riotbeard said:
federberg said:
No I meant his tournament to tournament level is higher than Cilic's. What I mean is that at the start of a tournament who would you think will go deeper? I think most would bet on Ferrer. But if we're talking a slam, at this stage, I suspect that most would rather place an outside punt on Cilic winning the whole thing. When Marin is good, he's better than Ferrer can ever be. But most of the time Ferrer is likely to go deeper. Does that make sense?

It does, and it's what I thought you meant, but the last sentence of your original post is "But I don't think anyone would argue that his default level is higher than Marin's." I think isn't higher than marin, because you are arguing Ferrer's default level is higher, but he has a lower ceiling, where as Marin could be the best player or worse player on tour depending on the day.

Ooops! Sorry it's been a long Friday :snicker You're right

I do it all the time too haha (there is at least one significant typo, in my posts correcting you, haha). Just wanted to make sure you didn't get misunderstood.
 

Kirijax

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Well, it's starting to look like the Frontierers have spoken. Ferrer the champ! According to the poll anyways. :snicker
 

GameSetAndMath

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Kirijax said:
Well, it's starting to look like the Frontierers have spoken. Ferrer the champ! According to the poll anyways. :snicker

Hanging chads! :nono :cover

I ask for extending the time period indefinitely until Ferrer loses and if that does not happen within a month, I request that I be allowed to recount the votes.
 

Kirijax

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GameSetAndMath said:
Kirijax said:
Well, it's starting to look like the Frontierers have spoken. Ferrer the champ! According to the poll anyways. :snicker

Hanging chads! :nono :cover

I ask for extending the time period indefinitely until Ferrer loses and if that does not happen within a month, I request that I be allowed to recount the votes.

As a native Floridian, I will have to agree. Gotta count them chads! At least until the US Supreme Court steps in and orders Tennis Frontier to declare Ferrer the winner. :snicker
 

mrzz

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Kirijax said:
Well, it's starting to look like the Frontierers have spoken. Ferrer the champ! According to the poll anyways. :snicker

Not anymore...

...I wonder how many games Ferrer could score against Rios with them both playing their best.

Anyway, being world #1 is an indisputable argument for me.
 

tented

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I'm torn between Davydenko, Ferrer, and Nalbandian (in alphabetical order), but leaning towards Nalbandian. And even though I don't remember him, a solid case has been made for Okker. Can it be multiple choice? ;)
 

Riotbeard

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I just can't see it with Ferrer personally. In important titles, he is at best in the middle of the list, and in terms of longevity near the top, he is up there but not by large margins. Nalby has two masters with big wins over people and WTF that is way bigger than one Bercy IMO. The same for Davy, or from what I understand Rios.
 

Kirijax

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mrzz said:
Kirijax said:
Well, it's starting to look like the Frontierers have spoken. Ferrer the champ! According to the poll anyways. :snicker

Not anymore...

...I wonder how many games Ferrer could score against Rios with them both playing their best.

Anyway, being world #1 is an indisputable argument for me.

Yeah too bad Rios was such a mental case and had to be No. 1 during a low ebb between greats.
 

Moxie

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mrzz said:
Kirijax said:
Well, it's starting to look like the Frontierers have spoken. Ferrer the champ! According to the poll anyways. :snicker

Not anymore...

...I wonder how many games Ferrer could score against Rios with them both playing their best.

Anyway, being world #1 is an indisputable argument for me.

Rios was #1 for 6 weeks, in an era when Pete was waning and Andre was at his nadir. Look at how many times #1 changed hands in the late 90s-early 2000s. Everyone will have their criteria for who is the "greatest never to win a Slam." Some go with results, and some, like yourself, with the more nebulous and subjective vote for "talent" as you perceive it. Or having gotten to #1 when they were handing it out like for basically having a couple of good tournaments. Rios made one Slam final (AO,) and never even another SF.

Ferrer comes in for a lot of strong dislike around here, but he has very solid results. He hasn't beaten the best of his era, in any significant way, but he's playing in a really tough era. Unlike Rios. And Nalbandian, if you want to go there. Nalby could have and should have done more before the competition got trickier beyond Roger. Additionally, Ferrer is pretty much the shortest guy in the top 50, in an age where Big Man tennis can knock most anyone out, on a given day. And, contrary to urban legend, he has two good weapons beyond his toughness and fitness: his serve, and his inside-out forehand.

A basic problem for many is probably the wording. "Greatest" is a complicated term, and some folks have difficulty assigning "greatness" to Ferrer. But perceived potential greatness in players with higher top levels is very subjective, whereas actual results can be measured. Tennis is littered with potentially great players that never lived up to their perceived capabilities. I have a hard time ranking them above the ones who did live up to their best level, or even achieved more than expected.
 

shawnbm

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I always liked the Big Cat and his game. Mecir always impressed me. On record, though, I guess you'd have to pick someone like Ferrer, Solomon or Nalbandian.
 

Moxie

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1972Murat said:
This return from Rios should just end this conversation here...;)

If it came down to trick shots, then the answer would be Fabrice Santoro. :cool:
 

Moxie

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And speaking of Santoro, just because everyone needs a good laugh. The video quality is crap, but it'll still make you smile.

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5UtvvK5fMw[/video]
 

jhar26

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tented said:
I'm torn between Davydenko, Ferrer, and Nalbandian (in alphabetical order), but leaning towards Nalbandian. And even though I don't remember him, a solid case has been made for Okker. Can it be multiple choice? ;)
If I had read Newtownbarry's post before voting I probably would have voted for Tom Okker.
 

Newtownbarry

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That's why I think Okker should be excluded. Too many of the voters are too young to remember him and so he never had a chance. It would be unfair to him to finish way down the list. The rest of the candidates are much younger and known by the voters. Take a look at Okker's record compared to the other nominees on Wilkapedia compared to the others. My second choice would be David Ferrer
 

GameSetAndMath

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jhar26 said:
tented said:
I'm torn between Davydenko, Ferrer, and Nalbandian (in alphabetical order), but leaning towards Nalbandian. And even though I don't remember him, a solid case has been made for Okker. Can it be multiple choice? ;)
If I had read Newtownbarry's post before voting I probably would have voted for Tom Okker.

Another reason to declare the election null and void. ;)
 

Kirijax

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Been digging up some stuff on Tom Okker.

TOM OKKER (The Flying Dutchman)

Okker's Wikipedia Page

Okker%20GS%20Histort%20Chart_zps89akuvll.png


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