The demeaning and inaccurate myth of what Djokovic was in 2011....

[calitennis127]

On another thread in the past week, one frequent poster wrote the following and was not called on it:

"In 2011 there was basically only one Nole against Rafa. It was the bug-eyed, shirt-ripping, egg-fueled maniac who swung for the fences and painted the lines."

It is amazing that hardly anyone challenged this absurd statement. If anyone knows that it is false, it would be Rafael Nadal himself. The notion that Djokovic was simply going for broke and basically getting lucky is absolutely and utterly untrue. For one thing, Djokovic was playing excellent defense - as both imjimmy and Broken often commented in 2011- but besides that, Djokovic was hitting winners that he had always hit with both his forehand and backhand.

I think Mr. Kieran's above remark emanates almost solely from the US Open match points against Federer. On that occasion, yes, Djokovic swung for the fences on match point - and he executed. But Kieran always compliments Nadal for "rising to the occasion", so why not give Djokovic some credit for what he did on those two MPs against Federer as well, instead of just attributing it to a once-in-a-lifetime rush of adrenaline and testerone?

When Nadal saves match points, he is mentally tough. When Djokovic does it, he is a "bug-eyed maniac who swung for the fences". I remember Nadal in the Indian Wells match against Nalbandian going for a down-the-line forehand winner on one match point that he hadn't hit all match; THAT shot clipped the line, whereas Djokovic's winners against Federer were inside the line. So who was the line-clipping swing-for-the-fences player?

More broadly, however, what Djokovic did in 2011 was expose the inherent limitations in Nadal's game in terms of shotmaking and offensive ability. The US Open final was almost pathetic on Nadal's part, as he was hitting the ball as ferociously and tenaciously as he could, but only produced 4 winners in 2.5 hours with that utterly amazing forehand. Djokovic also did not beat himself in 2011 the way he did in the Montreal semifinal last week, when he gave Nadal a bunch of cheap double faults (which Nadal never hits himself) and was often sloppy in rallies. At any rate, in 2011 Djokovic exposed Nadal's limitations, not with low-percentage "painting lines" luck, but with entirely reasonable (albeit high-level) tennis execution.

That was what Djokovic did in 2011.

 

[Kieran]

Eh, I was complimenting him!

But I was also pointing out that 2011-Novak is the anomaly in his career - not the norm. He's reverted to type somewhat, but with occasional flashes of 2011 brilliance. And of course, since this miraculous level ended, in Oz 2012, he's won 1 slam out of 6.

And 1 match out of 6 against Rafa...

 

[calitennis127]

Eh, I was complimenting him!

But I was also pointing out that 2011-Novak is the anomaly in his career - not the norm. He's reverted to type somewhat, but with occasional flashes of 2011 brilliance. And of course, since this miraculous level ended, in Oz 2012, he's won 1 slam out of 6.

And 1 match out of 6 against Rafa...

Kieran, with descriptors such as "miraculous" and "maniac" and characterizations of his play such as "swung for the fences" and "painted lines", you are clearly attempting to put an asterisk in everyone's mind about his 2011 level. You are not complimenting him so much as knocking him down.

The biggest differences between 2013 and 2011 are that Djokovic in 2011 wouldn't have come out and hit two double faults in the first game of a match, and also I think his fitness two years ago was a tad better. He was a little bit more on his toes and forward-moving. Nadal, on the other hand, is as fit as ever in 2013.

 

[Fiero425]

Eh, I was complimenting him!

But I was also pointing out that 2011-Novak is the anomaly in his career - not the norm. He's reverted to type somewhat, but with occasional flashes of 2011 brilliance. And of course, since this miraculous level ended, in Oz 2012, he's won 1 slam out of 6.

And 1 match out of 6 against Rafa...

Kieran, with descriptors such as "miraculous" and "maniac" and characterizations of his play such as "swung for the fences" and "painted lines", you are clearly attempting to put an asterisk in everyone's mind about his 2011 level. You are not complimenting him so much as knocking him down.

The biggest differences between 2013 and 2011 are that Djokovic in 2011 wouldn't have come out and hit two double faults in the first game of a match, and also I think his fitness two years ago was a tad better. He was a little bit more on his toes and forward-moving. Nadal, on the other hand, is as fit as ever in 2013.

Amazing; must have missed it! A real shame to belittle someone as nice as Nole! He hasn't done half of the "jerky" things Nadal has done on a regular basis! Even if an act, he's keeping his ego in check, mentions others who supports him, and has a foundation he promotes more than anything! Shocking! :huh: :nono

 

[Kieran]

Eh, I was complimenting him!

But I was also pointing out that 2011-Novak is the anomaly in his career - not the norm. He's reverted to type somewhat, but with occasional flashes of 2011 brilliance. And of course, since this miraculous level ended, in Oz 2012, he's won 1 slam out of 6.

And 1 match out of 6 against Rafa...

Kieran, with descriptors such as "miraculous" and "maniac" and characterizations of his play such as "swung for the fences" and "painted lines", you are clearly attempting to put an asterisk in everyone's mind about his 2011 level. You are not complimenting him so much as knocking him down.

The biggest differences between 2013 and 2011 are that Djokovic in 2011 wouldn't have come out and hit two double faults in the first game of a match, and also I think his fitness two years ago was a tad better. He was a little bit more on his toes and forward-moving. Nadal, on the other hand, is as fit as ever in 2013.

No, no, no! I get to say what I was doing, and that phrase, as colourful as it is, is complimentary. Novak was on fire back then and seemed like he couldn't be touched. He was out of his skull on inspiration and it was a level that nobody could sustain - including him.

The myth of 2011 Novak is one you believe: that based upon his two clay court results against Rafa, this this was somehow his default setting and he should be favoured to beat Rafa every time. I told you back then, that Nole would find Rafa to be a different proposition in future, that he would need to maintain that hard-edged focus because every match would become a war to the death, etc.

But no, you joined the believers of the match-up scam and thought it was just a function of mere mechanics and Novak would continue to beat him. Well, it isn't a function of mere mechanics.

And he hasn't continued to beat him.

The reason for this is that Rafa has upped his game - and Nole has returned to earth. Not so much bug-eyed any more...

 

[DarthFed]

Nowhere did Kieran say he got lucky. But I also disagree with Kieran characterizing it as a streak. One year of results is no streak and it was far from miraculous especially considering he didn't play that well in 2012 AO final and still beat Whafa after a 5 hour match vs. Murray.

Nole at this point is playing worse than expectations, even expectations that had to be considerably less than what he did in 2011. He has had a very poor year so far after a disappointing end to 2012. I would caution in thinking he can't suddenly get back to 2011 levels or close to it but he only has another year or 2 and then he will be past his prime. This US Open is beyond huge for him if he wants to keep any kind of stranglehold on the game.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Eh, I was complimenting him!

But I was also pointing out that 2011-Novak is the anomaly in his career - not the norm. He's reverted to type somewhat, but with occasional flashes of 2011 brilliance. And of course, since this miraculous level ended, in Oz 2012, he's won 1 slam out of 6.

And 1 match out of 6 against Rafa...

Kieran, with descriptors such as "miraculous" and "maniac" and characterizations of his play such as "swung for the fences" and "painted lines", you are clearly attempting to put an asterisk in everyone's mind about his 2011 level. You are not complimenting him so much as knocking him down.

The biggest differences between 2013 and 2011 are that Djokovic in 2011 wouldn't have come out and hit two double faults in the first game of a match, and also I think his fitness two years ago was a tad better. He was a little bit more on his toes and forward-moving. Nadal, on the other hand, is as fit as ever in 2013.

No, no, no! I get to say what I was doing, and that phrase, as colourful as it is, is complimentary. Novak was on fire back then and seemed like he couldn't be touched. He was out of his skull on inspiration and it was a level that nobody could sustain - including him.

The myth of 2011 Novak is one you believe: that based upon his two clay court results against Rafa, this this was somehow his default setting and he should be favoured to beat Rafa every time. I told you back then, that Nole would find Rafa to be a different proposition in future, that he would need to maintain that hard-edged focus because every match would become a war to the death, etc.

But no, you joined the believers of the match-up scam and thought it was just a function of mere mechanics and Novak would continue to beat him. Well, it isn't a function of mere mechanics.

And he hasn't continued to beat him.

The reason for this is that Rafa has upped his game - and Nole has returned to earth. Not so much bug-eyed any more...

Rafa has had only one bad match recently against Djoker, Monte Carlo. He is playing more aggressive and attacking Djoker's fh instead of rolling his ball continuously to his backhand where he typically gets pulled of the courts. He is slicing better up the line but still gets ambushed when it falls to short or in the center of the court. Nadal is being a little bit more aggressive at the net. I think that when he hit Nole with the short ball last weekend in Montreal at the net Nadal had to be recalling the incident at AO 12 when he was up 4-2 30-15 but took that approach shot dTL instead of right at djoker which I felt changed the outcome of that encounter.

All this Djoker is playing like crap is a bunch of hogwashed. Djoker isn't suffering from any injuries or exhaustion from over playing. The players on the tour have made a lot of adjustments to their game to remedy his assault on the ATP tour which is expected because he(djoker) is the hunted.

 

[nehmeth]

On another thread in the past week, one frequent poster wrote the following and was not called on it:

"In 2011 there was basically only one Nole against Rafa. It was the bug-eyed, shirt-ripping, egg-fueled maniac who swung for the fences and painted the lines."

It is amazing that hardly anyone challenged this statement.

This is predominantly a Fedal board (most liking one or the other) and at best Djokovic tolerant.

Regarding Kieran's post, I don't think he was dissing Novak. As he's stated 2011 was his best year, and until he repeats it, the exception rather than the rule. As a fan, I agree with him.

 

[DarthFed]

Eh, I was complimenting him!

But I was also pointing out that 2011-Novak is the anomaly in his career - not the norm. He's reverted to type somewhat, but with occasional flashes of 2011 brilliance. And of course, since this miraculous level ended, in Oz 2012, he's won 1 slam out of 6.

And 1 match out of 6 against Rafa...

Kieran, with descriptors such as "miraculous" and "maniac" and characterizations of his play such as "swung for the fences" and "painted lines", you are clearly attempting to put an asterisk in everyone's mind about his 2011 level. You are not complimenting him so much as knocking him down.

The biggest differences between 2013 and 2011 are that Djokovic in 2011 wouldn't have come out and hit two double faults in the first game of a match, and also I think his fitness two years ago was a tad better. He was a little bit more on his toes and forward-moving. Nadal, on the other hand, is as fit as ever in 2013.

No, no, no! I get to say what I was doing, and that phrase, as colourful as it is, is complimentary. Novak was on fire back then and seemed like he couldn't be touched. He was out of his skull on inspiration and it was a level that nobody could sustain - including him.

The myth of 2011 Novak is one you believe: that based upon his two clay court results against Rafa, this this was somehow his default setting and he should be favoured to beat Rafa every time. I told you back then, that Nole would find Rafa to be a different proposition in future, that he would need to maintain that hard-edged focus because every match would become a war to the death, etc.

But no, you joined the believers of the match-up scam and thought it was just a function of mere mechanics and Novak would continue to beat him. Well, it isn't a function of mere mechanics.

And he hasn't continued to beat him.

The reason for this is that Rafa has upped his game - and Nole has returned to earth. Not so much bug-eyed any more...

Rafa has had only one bad match recently against Djoker, Monte Carlo. He is playing more aggressive and attacking Djoker's fh instead of rolling his ball continuously to his backhand where he typically gets pulled of the courts. He is slicing better up the line but still gets ambushed when it falls to short or in the center of the court. Nadal is being a little bit more aggressive at the net. I think that when he hit Nole with the short ball last weekend in Montreal at the net Nadal had to be recalling the incident at AO 12 when he was up 4-2 30-15 but took that approach shot dTL instead of right at djoker which I felt changed the outcome of that encounter.

All this Djoker is playing like crap is a bunch of hogwashed. Djoker isn't suffering from any injuries or exhaustion from over playing. The players on the tour have made a lot of adjustments to their game to remedy his assault on the ATP tour which is expected because he(djoker) is the hunted.

Djokovic hasn't been up to snuff mentally this year and for large parts last year. We saw it last week and more alarming was the Wimbledon final. The big matches he showed great confidence in 2 years ago he now is shrinking in. I think that's part of what Cali is alluding too. Djokovic is still playing mostly great tennis...except when it matters most.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Eh, I was complimenting him!

But I was also pointing out that 2011-Novak is the anomaly in his career - not the norm. He's reverted to type somewhat, but with occasional flashes of 2011 brilliance. And of course, since this miraculous level ended, in Oz 2012, he's won 1 slam out of 6.

And 1 match out of 6 against Rafa...

Kieran, with descriptors such as "miraculous" and "maniac" and characterizations of his play such as "swung for the fences" and "painted lines", you are clearly attempting to put an asterisk in everyone's mind about his 2011 level. You are not complimenting him so much as knocking him down.

The biggest differences between 2013 and 2011 are that Djokovic in 2011 wouldn't have come out and hit two double faults in the first game of a match, and also I think his fitness two years ago was a tad better. He was a little bit more on his toes and forward-moving. Nadal, on the other hand, is as fit as ever in 2013.

No, no, no! I get to say what I was doing, and that phrase, as colourful as it is, is complimentary. Novak was on fire back then and seemed like he couldn't be touched. He was out of his skull on inspiration and it was a level that nobody could sustain - including him.

The myth of 2011 Novak is one you believe: that based upon his two clay court results against Rafa, this this was somehow his default setting and he should be favoured to beat Rafa every time. I told you back then, that Nole would find Rafa to be a different proposition in future, that he would need to maintain that hard-edged focus because every match would become a war to the death, etc.

But no, you joined the believers of the match-up scam and thought it was just a function of mere mechanics and Novak would continue to beat him. Well, it isn't a function of mere mechanics.

And he hasn't continued to beat him.

The reason for this is that Rafa has upped his game - and Nole has returned to earth. Not so much bug-eyed any more...

Rafa has had only one bad match recently against Djoker, Monte Carlo. He is playing more aggressive and attacking Djoker's fh instead of rolling his ball continuously to his backhand where he typically gets pulled of the courts. He is slicing better up the line but still gets ambushed when it falls to short or in the center of the court. Nadal is being a little bit more aggressive at the net. I think that when he hit Nole with the short ball last weekend in Montreal at the net Nadal had to be recalling the incident at AO 12 when he was up 4-2 30-15 but took that approach shot dTL instead of right at djoker which I felt changed the outcome of that encounter.

All this Djoker is playing like crap is a bunch of hogwashed. Djoker isn't suffering from any injuries or exhaustion from over playing. The players on the tour have made a lot of adjustments to their game to remedy his assault on the ATP tour which is expected because he(djoker) is the hunted.

Djokovic hasn't been up to snuff mentally this year and for large parts last year. We saw it last week and more alarming was the Wimbledon final. The big matches he showed great confidence in 2 years ago he now is shrinking in. I think that's part of what Cali is alluding too. Djokovic is still playing mostly great tennis...except when it matters most.

That is what I am saying.. just saying its his confidence or he is mentally shrinking is not giving the other players on the tour credit for making adjustments to play against him.

 

[DarthFed]

Kieran, with descriptors such as "miraculous" and "maniac" and characterizations of his play such as "swung for the fences" and "painted lines", you are clearly attempting to put an asterisk in everyone's mind about his 2011 level. You are not complimenting him so much as knocking him down.

The biggest differences between 2013 and 2011 are that Djokovic in 2011 wouldn't have come out and hit two double faults in the first game of a match, and also I think his fitness two years ago was a tad better. He was a little bit more on his toes and forward-moving. Nadal, on the other hand, is as fit as ever in 2013.

No, no, no! I get to say what I was doing, and that phrase, as colourful as it is, is complimentary. Novak was on fire back then and seemed like he couldn't be touched. He was out of his skull on inspiration and it was a level that nobody could sustain - including him.

The myth of 2011 Novak is one you believe: that based upon his two clay court results against Rafa, this this was somehow his default setting and he should be favoured to beat Rafa every time. I told you back then, that Nole would find Rafa to be a different proposition in future, that he would need to maintain that hard-edged focus because every match would become a war to the death, etc.

But no, you joined the believers of the match-up scam and thought it was just a function of mere mechanics and Novak would continue to beat him. Well, it isn't a function of mere mechanics.

And he hasn't continued to beat him.

The reason for this is that Rafa has upped his game - and Nole has returned to earth. Not so much bug-eyed any more...

Rafa has had only one bad match recently against Djoker, Monte Carlo. He is playing more aggressive and attacking Djoker's fh instead of rolling his ball continuously to his backhand where he typically gets pulled of the courts. He is slicing better up the line but still gets ambushed when it falls to short or in the center of the court. Nadal is being a little bit more aggressive at the net. I think that when he hit Nole with the short ball last weekend in Montreal at the net Nadal had to be recalling the incident at AO 12 when he was up 4-2 30-15 but took that approach shot dTL instead of right at djoker which I felt changed the outcome of that encounter.

All this Djoker is playing like crap is a bunch of hogwashed. Djoker isn't suffering from any injuries or exhaustion from over playing. The players on the tour have made a lot of adjustments to their game to remedy his assault on the ATP tour which is expected because he(djoker) is the hunted.

Djokovic hasn't been up to snuff mentally this year and for large parts last year. We saw it last week and more alarming was the Wimbledon final. The big matches he showed great confidence in 2 years ago he now is shrinking in. I think that's part of what Cali is alluding too. Djokovic is still playing mostly great tennis...except when it matters most.

That is what I am saying.. just saying its his confidence or he is mentally shrinking is not giving the other players on the tour credit for making adjustments to play against him.

And maybe it's not giving Djokovic credit to say he should have no chance vs. Murray on grass or Rafa on a fast hard court. We don't need to pretend that these were decent losses for him, no?

It seems to be a Rafa thing where his fans seem to believe that the other player's fans should be happy that their player lost to him. As a Fed fan it gets tiresome, you see that trash with the 2008 final and a bunch of other ones.

 

[Kieran]

It seems to be a Rafa thing where his fans seem to believe that the other player's fans should be happy that their player lost to him. As a Fed fan it gets tiresome, you see that trash with the 2008 final and a bunch of other ones.

Eh? What's that mean?

 

[DarthFed]

It seems to be a Rafa thing where his fans seem to believe that the other player's fans should be happy that their player lost to him. As a Fed fan it gets tiresome, you see that trash with the 2008 final and a bunch of other ones.

Eh? What's that mean?

Rafa fans have the tendency to think that the opponent played an excellent match when they come close to beating Rafa. As though the other player should feel great about a loss and coming close to beating him. Wimbledon 08...when a guy who had won 65 straight grass court matches played such an "incredible" match in defeat against mighty Rafa. And laughably I saw similar after the match last week with Djokovic.

 

[Kieran]

Roger did very well in 2008! You're doing the opposite, thinking that because he lost, he can't have played great. He was magnificent that day, and he lost. I don't see any reason why it's something not to be expressed.

By the way, your guy is playing magnificent today - against Tommy Haas!

 

[DarthFed]

Roger did very well in 2008! You're doing the opposite, thinking that because he lost, he can't have played great. He was magnificent that day, and he lost. I don't see any reason why it's something not to be expressed.

By the way, your guy is playing magnificent today - against Tommy Haas!

We differ fundamentally brotha, there is no such thing as magnificence in defeat. Never seen it happen, never will from these eyes. To lose a player has to do something wrong just like the victor has to do something right. Roger did a whole hell of a lot wrong that match. Short of having a heart attack the worst thing a person can do in competition is lose...

 

[Kieran]

Roger did very well in 2008! You're doing the opposite, thinking that because he lost, he can't have played great. He was magnificent that day, and he lost. I don't see any reason why it's something not to be expressed.

By the way, your guy is playing magnificent today - against Tommy Haas!

We differ fundamentally brotha, there is no such thing as magnificence in defeat. Never seen it happen, never will from these eyes. To lose a player has to do something wrong just like the victor has to do something right. Roger did a whole hell of a lot wrong that match. Short of having a heart attack the worst thing a person can do in competition is lose...

That's slightly extreme, actually. A player can exceed expectation, even in defeat. I wouldn't quite be so blunt as you are. And from 0-2 down in sets that day, Roger both exceeded expectations and was heroic. Credit where it's due!

 

[DarthFed]

Roger did very well in 2008! You're doing the opposite, thinking that because he lost, he can't have played great. He was magnificent that day, and he lost. I don't see any reason why it's something not to be expressed.

By the way, your guy is playing magnificent today - against Tommy Haas!

We differ fundamentally brotha, there is no such thing as magnificence in defeat. Never seen it happen, never will from these eyes. To lose a player has to do something wrong just like the victor has to do something right. Roger did a whole hell of a lot wrong that match. Short of having a heart attack the worst thing a person can do in competition is lose...

That's slightly extreme, actually. A player can exceed expectation, even in defeat. I wouldn't quite be so blunt as you are. And from 0-2 down in sets that day, Roger both exceeded expectations and was heroic. Credit where it's due!

Winning 2 tiebreak sets out of 5 total vs. a 2nd-3rd tier grass player (all-time list we're talking) ain't exceeding expectations for someone who had won 5 in a row. Should we forget that he was 1-13 in BP's and lost a 4-1 2nd set lead in 15 minutes? Barely had a pulse in the 5th too. But anyways, this talk is kind of my point regarding Rafa fans. Now we are off subject

 

[Kieran]

But anyways, this talk is kind of my point regarding Rafa fans.

Federer fans too. You ever meet a chap called DoogansQuest?

 

[the AntiPusher]

No, no, no! I get to say what I was doing, and that phrase, as colourful as it is, is complimentary. Novak was on fire back then and seemed like he couldn't be touched. He was out of his skull on inspiration and it was a level that nobody could sustain - including him.

The myth of 2011 Novak is one you believe: that based upon his two clay court results against Rafa, this this was somehow his default setting and he should be favoured to beat Rafa every time. I told you back then, that Nole would find Rafa to be a different proposition in future, that he would need to maintain that hard-edged focus because every match would become a war to the death, etc.

But no, you joined the believers of the match-up scam and thought it was just a function of mere mechanics and Novak would continue to beat him. Well, it isn't a function of mere mechanics.

And he hasn't continued to beat him.

The reason for this is that Rafa has upped his game - and Nole has returned to earth. Not so much bug-eyed any more...

Rafa has had only one bad match recently against Djoker, Monte Carlo. He is playing more aggressive and attacking Djoker's fh instead of rolling his ball continuously to his backhand where he typically gets pulled of the courts. He is slicing better up the line but still gets ambushed when it falls to short or in the center of the court. Nadal is being a little bit more aggressive at the net. I think that when he hit Nole with the short ball last weekend in Montreal at the net Nadal had to be recalling the incident at AO 12 when he was up 4-2 30-15 but took that approach shot dTL instead of right at djoker which I felt changed the outcome of that encounter.

All this Djoker is playing like crap is a bunch of hogwashed. Djoker isn't suffering from any injuries or exhaustion from over playing. The players on the tour have made a lot of adjustments to their game to remedy his assault on the ATP tour which is expected because he(djoker) is the hunted.

Djokovic hasn't been up to snuff mentally this year and for large parts last year. We saw it last week and more alarming was the Wimbledon final. The big matches he showed great confidence in 2 years ago he now is shrinking in. I think that's part of what Cali is alluding too. Djokovic is still playing mostly great tennis...except when it matters most.

That is what I am saying.. just saying its his confidence or he is mentally shrinking is not giving the other players on the tour credit for making adjustments to play against him.

And maybe it's not giving Djokovic credit to say he should have no chance vs. Murray on grass or Rafa on a fast hard court. We don't need to pretend that these were decent losses for him, no?

It seems to be a Rafa thing where his fans seem to believe that the other player's fans should be happy that their player lost to him. As a Fed fan it gets tiresome, you see that trash with the 2008 final and a bunch of other ones.

As you can see just like any entity, we all are still unique.. If you felt that some of Rafa fans accept looses or bad performances against the other top players this may be true but not for me. I am a realist.. Any given day, everyone's champion may get defeated..

As for Federer and Haas.. Tommy has seen Roger's game as much as anyone recently and over the years. Roger's game is not where it needs to be these days which gives Tommy more of an opportunity to snatch a win.

 

[DarthFed]

But anyways, this talk is kind of my point regarding Rafa fans.

Federer fans too. You ever meet a chap called DoogansQuest?

No never heard of him :snigger