Tennis grass season

[DarthFed]

Did you miss the lead-in to this which was a suggestion to get rid of the Paris MS? If you did that, and given that DC is also right next to the YEC and is on various surfaces, why couldn't the surface change for the YEC? There'd be a break after Shanghai, and time to travel and adjust to surface.

Well DC is a different animal and oftentimes it only affects one or at most 2 of the 8 YEC participants. Also when one of them does have DC it usually is a bad thing for their YEC campaign and part of that can be due to trying to prepare on a different surface. Also if they "get rid of an MS" keep in mind that chances are they still would have the same tournament in the same slot in the calendar, the only change is that it'd be downgraded to an ATP 500.

The only ones I've seen want to change venues and surfaces every year are the Nadal camp and his fans. Maybe he should concentrate on becoming good indoors, it'd be much more rewarding for him to finally win a YEC in London then it would on clay.

 

[Moxie]

Well DC is a different animal and oftentimes it only affects one or at most 2 of the 8 YEC participants. Also when one of them does have DC it usually is a bad thing for their YEC campaign and part of that can be due to trying to prepare on a different surface. Also if they "get rid of an MS" keep in mind that chances are they still would have the same tournament in the same slot in the calendar, the only change is that it'd be downgraded to an ATP 500.

The only ones I've seen want to change venues and surfaces every year are the Nadal camp and his fans. Maybe he should concentrate on becoming good indoors, it'd be much more rewarding for him to finally win a YEC in London then it would on clay.

Yes, but if Paris is a 500, none of the big guys would play it. And Nadal is a non-feature in this discussion. By the time this would come about, he'll be gone anyway.

 

[mightyjeditribble]

Paris-Bercy has been limping along and also hoping to change it's place in the schedule, for the very reason that everyone is tired by the time they get there. I agree you have to keep Shanghai, for big-picture reasons. But if you drop Paris, that means that the MS 1000s end earlier in the year, which would negate the mandate that the YEC needs to be on indoor hards. It could be taken out of the O2, and be changed at a more revolving basis. One of the other main events that players would be likely to play at the end of the year is DC, and that is surface-of-choice.

Do you think that's still true? The tournament used to be the week before the WTF, and the top players playing at the finals wouldn't come, or not be particularly interested in going deep. But since they introduced the extra week, I think it has been rather an important event, and the top players do tend to show up in good form on the whole.

 

[El Dude]

Hmm...Moxie wants the YEC to be clay, preferably soon...I wonder why?

 

[DarthFed]

Yes, but if Paris is a 500, none of the big guys would play it. And Nadal is a non-feature in this discussion. By the time this would come about, he'll be gone anyway.

There would still be some of the guys competing to just qualify for the YEC. The elite guys would likely skip it if they already qualified but you'd still have likely 2 or more of the final 8 that end up playing Paris most years even if it was an ATP 500. And then again, if they were to suddenly switch surfaces and give everyone an extra week that would just make the offseason shorter. And quite frankly even 2 weeks after playing on fast outdoor hards and indoors would be a huge adjustment to make to clay. The quality of play would likely suck aside from your boy.

 

[Moxie]

Hmm...Moxie wants the YEC to be clay, preferably soon...I wonder why?

I didn't say clay, and I did say that by the time they make any such switch, Nadal won't be playing. I'd like to see it rotate venues, which might mean it switches surfaces on occasion. My main objection is that it's always played in London, for the last while. If it's the 5th most important tournament of the year, why should 2 of the 5 be played in London?

 

[Front242]

I didn't say clay, and I did say that by the time they make any such switch, Nadal won't be playing. I'd like to see it rotate venues, which might mean it switches surfaces on occasion. My main objection is that it's always played in London, for the last while. If it's the 5th most important tournament of the year, why should 2 of the 5 be played in London?

Sure, same city but completely different surfaces so it's not really an issue imo. Paris is the same with RG and the Paris masters 1000. They can move the WTF but it should stay indoors imo. Players have to show diversity.

 

[britbox]

I didn't say clay, and I did say that by the time they make any such switch, Nadal won't be playing. I'd like to see it rotate venues, which might mean it switches surfaces on occasion. My main objection is that it's always played in London, for the last while. If it's the 5th most important tournament of the year, why should 2 of the 5 be played in London?

It doesn't have to be played in London, but if it isn't broke then why try and fix it?

 

[isabelle]

Hmm...Moxie wants the YEC to be clay, preferably soon...I wonder why?

don't ou want RG to be played on grass ????

 

[Shivashish Sarkar]

I don't know how to explain my feelings but having a masters tournament after Wimbledon is weird. I don't know why. Maybe we are used to seeing the grass season end with the Wimbledon as a major tournament.

A possible solution:

1) Move every tournament that takes place after Halle (and Halle too) one week back.
2) Make Halle a masters tournament.
3) Demote Madrid tournament to 500.

Done, I hope. Madrid plays differently than the other clay tournaments and players having to adjust to it does no good to their preparation for RG. Demote it.

 

[DarthFed]

^ That'd be an excellent solution IMO. The only thing I'd like to add (yes I have an agenda) is that the warmup grass tourneys aren't exactly great prep for Wimbledon either. Halle and Queens play way faster and lower than Wimbledon I'd love if Wimbledon changed the surface and ball back to what it was in the 90's. I think my boy would be going for a La Decima himself this year if the grass at Wimbledon played as it should. But either way I think having Halle as a MS event would be great.

 

[mrzz]

Madrid plays differently than the other clay tournaments

I know this is a side argument here -- I agree that Madrid is the one begging to be downgraded for a lot of reasons -- but this general notion that Madrid plays that differently, mostly because of the altitude, had me unconsciously believing that Madrid was somehow high in the alps, at almost 3000 meters up. One day I cared to check and it is around 700 meters. Same as here in São Paulo. Hardly a big deal.

[Edit]: After I posted I cared to check and it is a bigger deal than I thought. From sea level to 700 meters air density drops around 25%. Drag is roughly linear on the density of the fluid, so, ok, the effect is not negligible.

 

[Moxie]

^ That'd be an excellent solution IMO. The only thing I'd like to add (yes I have an agenda) is that the warmup grass tourneys aren't exactly great prep for Wimbledon either. Halle and Queens play way faster and lower than Wimbledon I'd love if Wimbledon changed the surface and ball back to what it was in the 90's. I think my boy would be going for a La Decima himself this year if the grass at Wimbledon played as it should. But either way I think having Halle as a MS event would be great.

IIRC, the problems with Halle being a MS has to do with the tournament facilities not meeting the requirements. Perhaps that could be fixed, though, and maybe the ATP would kick in some funds. I think that's why Hamburg gets the mention, since they must meet the requirements, having had one in the past. Maybe Hamburg could be moved to before Wimbledon. I'm all for a MS event on grass. I don't think it would be right to downgrade Madrid without replacing a clay MS, though. 3 MS on clay is the correct proportion for clay in the calendar. Grass would have to substitute 1 HC event.

I know this is a side argument here -- I agree that Madrid is the one begging to be downgraded for a lot of reasons -- but this general notion that Madrid plays that differently, mostly because of the altitude, had me unconsciously believing that Madrid was somehow high in the alps, at almost 3000 meters up. One day I cared to check and it is around 700 meters. Same as here in São Paulo. Hardly a big deal.

[Edit]: After I posted I cared to check and it is a bigger deal than I thought. From sea level to 700 meters air density drops around 25%. Drag is roughly linear on the density of the fluid, so, ok, the effect is not negligible.

Madrid is the only MS event not played at essentially sea-level, as are most of the lower-level ones, too. (There is one in Kitzbuhel, though, and it is in the Alps.) Thing is, I don't see what you replace it with, and as I mentioned to Darth, above, to take off a clay MS would be disproportionate to the calendar, in which all clay ATP events make up 1/3. It's HCs that are over-represented in the MS. Substituting a grass MS would fix that.

 

[mrzz]

Madrid is the only MS event not played at essentially sea-level, as are most of the lower-level ones, too. (There is one in Kitzbuhel, though, and it is in the Alps.) Thing is, I don't see what you replace it with, and as I mentioned to Darth, above, to take off a clay MS would be disproportionate to the calendar, in which all clay ATP events make up 1/3. It's HCs that are over-represented in the MS. Substituting a grass MS would fix that.

I agree that HC´s are over-represented. But, considering that all the clay season is shortly packed in less than 3 months, you have, relative to time span, a lot of MS tournaments all stringed together. That´s why they seem "too much" (but they are not, I agree).

So, if you assume that this situations remains, and also that Wimbledon won´t move another two weeks, in this case Madrid seems the target. Again, not that I agree with that, I like the tournament, and, as you, I don´t like the fact that most tournaments are on HC (given still that most HC tournaments are on medium to slow surfaces).

In other words, probably everyone agrees that one HC MS for one grass MS is the fair thing to do, but given all already discussed it just does not seem likely. To make matter worst, if an HC MS would fall, there is a good chance that it would be Cincinnati, which is exactly the one a bit out of the curve...

 

[Moxie]

I agree that HC´s are over-represented. But, considering that all the clay season is shortly packed in less than 3 months, you have, relative to time span, a lot of MS tournaments all stringed together. That´s why they seem "too much" (but they are not, I agree).

So, if you assume that this situations remains, and also that Wimbledon won´t move another two weeks, in this case Madrid seems the target. Again, not that I agree with that, I like the tournament, and, as you, I don´t like the fact that most tournaments are on HC (given still that most HC tournaments are on medium to slow surfaces).

In other words, probably everyone agrees that one HC MS for one grass MS is the fair thing to do, but given all already discussed it just does not seem likely. To make matter worst, if an HC MS would fall, there is a good chance that it would be Cincinnati, which is exactly the one a bit out of the curve...

I would hope that someday a MS on grass is possible. If that should happen, the likeliest to downgrade would be either Cincy or Paris. An argument for keeping Paris as a 1000 is that 2 indoor HC MS is probably proportional, though on the cusp. An argument for keeping Cincinnati is that it gives you 2 MS leading into the USO. Also, you lighten the "required" load at the end of the year.

 

[britbox]

I would hope that someday a MS on grass is possible. If that should happen, the likeliest to downgrade would be either Cincy or Paris. An argument for keeping Paris as a 1000 is that 2 indoor HC MS is probably proportional, though on the cusp. An argument for keeping Cincinnati is that it gives you 2 MS leading into the USO. Also, you lighten the "required" load at the end of the year.

Cincy fits well in the calendar and I like 2 MS leading into the USO. The Paris event on the same token, seems like it's just been thrown into a gap.

 

[Moxie]

Cincy fits well in the calendar and I like 2 MS leading into the USO. The Paris event on the same token, seems like it's just been thrown into a gap.

I agree. I feel a bit bad for Paris, because they're always trying to figure out how to make the event not feel like an afterthought, and something that top players are limping into, or wriggling out of. But they have a Major, so you can't be too sorry for them. Losing Cincy would diffuse the drama leading up to the USO.

 

[mrzz]

hmmm.... probably the ATP loves the fact that there is an ATP 1000 leading up to its main event (the YEC), now with a proper week of rest between them. Maybe Paris is the safest masters of them all...

 

[Moxie]

hmmm.... probably the ATP loves the fact that there is an ATP 1000 leading up to its main event (the YEC), now with a proper week of rest between them. Maybe Paris is the safest masters of them all...

Maybe the extra week will make a difference, but even Paris/Bercy doesn't seem to like being the end-of-the-road. We'll see. But someone has to give, if there's going to be a grass MS.

 

[Front242]

I'm of the opinion they should demote Madrid to optional 500 like Barcelona and make Monte Carlo mandatory as it's a beautiful venue. Amazing scenery there. Plus Madrid is so unlike RG that it just throws off the players' rhythms in clay season, being more like hard court. For that reason I think it should be made an optional 500 event.