Teenagers with 2+ Titles in the Open Era

[Federberg]

Yeah, I had to double-check that when I was looking up the list. Regardless, I think it safe to say that Borg, Nadal, Becker and Wilander are the greatest teenagers of the Open Era, in some order. I'd probably rate them in that order. Interestingly, Borg and Nadal bookend an overall younger era; they are the two greatest teenagers, and the first and last of that era.

You would have Rafa ahead of Becker as a teenager? Didn't Becker back to back as a teen?

 

[britbox]

You would have Rafa ahead of Becker as a teenager? Didn't Becker back to back as a teen?

Yep. 85 and 86 Wimbledon.

 

[Federberg]

Yep. 85 and 86 Wimbledon.

That's what I thought. Which would surely mean that Becker was the better teen right?

 

[britbox]

That's what I thought. Which would surely mean that Becker was the better teen right?

Without doubt IMO. Becker was a teen prodigy.

 

[Ricardo]

yes Becker at the same age (say 18) was much more famous than Rafa. By 21 he's won 4 slams so he was widely seen as the greatest young phenomena back then, only he bagged just two more after while Rafa bagged it every year until recently.

 

[El Dude]

Slams don't trump all. Rafa also won two more Masters and four more titles than Becker did, as a teenager. Plus if you factor in that he played about half his second Slam title as a teen, its really "1.5 Slams."

Regardless, it is close enough not to really matter - both were amazing teenagers. Borg probably gets the edge over both, then Rafa and Becker, then Wilander.

 

[Moxie]

Slams don't trump all. Rafa also won two more Masters and four more titles than Becker did, as a teenager. Plus if you factor in that he played about half his second Slam title as a teen, its really "1.5 Slams."

Regardless, it is close enough not to really matter - both were amazing teenagers. Borg probably gets the edge over both, then Rafa and Becker, then Wilander.

Dude, you weren't reading when I wrote that Rafa won 6/7s of his 2nd Slam as a teenager. Anyway, I get the point that Becker was more famous as a teenager. Makes sense: Becker was noisier, but Nadal was quietly more accomplished.

 

[El Dude]

I did see that, Moxie - I was actually supporting your view, whereas britbox, Federberg, and Ricardo all seem to think that clearly Becker was greater as a teenager. I think that, at the least, it is very close.

 

[Moxie]

I did see that, Moxie - I was actually supporting your view, whereas britbox, Federberg, and Ricardo all seem to think that clearly Becker was greater as a teenager. I think that, at the least, it is very close.

I didn't think you were disagreeing with anything I said. And I can see why they put Boris above Rafa, though, like you, I'd put Nadal a bit ahead, and also say it's close. Becker, like Borg, was seriously accomplished and famous as a younger teenager, while Nadal was winning and getting a lot of notice the last 2 years of his teens, and it was likely winning his 2nd French, 1 day after turning 20, that solidified his reputation. I know you've done a few pieces on how early success is usually a prerequisite to a "great" career. I guess we'll see in the next 10 years or so if the paradigm is really shifting.

 

[britbox]

The argument for Becker is that he won twice as many slams 2-1 (Teenager is binary - you either are or you aren't so I'll keep Rafa on 1)

Rafa won 6 Masters to 4, and was 9 to 6 on small tournaments.... Does, that trump the slam count? I'd find it hard to say so, especially when considering some other evidence.

Becker made the Quarter Finals in all four majors as a teenager, and he made the Semi Finals in two of them (US Open 86, French Open 87) to go with his two Wimbledon titles.

Rafa's best was the 4th Round at the AO, 2nd Round at Wimbledon and 3rd round at the US Open.

Becker was more dangerous in the majors and don't forget he was the YEC runner-up twice.

 

[El Dude]

You make a compelling case, britbox. Regardless, it is very close.

 

[Moxie]

It's a question of how much you want to count 'getting there but not being there,' and Slams. Becker has the Slams. But if you're going to talk about how close he was in other tournaments, that's still just showing future promise. It's not wins. And if you're buying into "close," Rafa was as close as you can come to being a teenager when he won his 2nd RG. I'm not saying you're wrong to make the argument, but it is very close.

 

[El Dude]

Well perhaps here's another way to put it. Without checking the actual dates, Becker was definitely a better player as a 17 year old, also as an 18 year old, although with the gap closing, but Rafa was better as a 19 year old.

 

[Ricardo]

Well perhaps here's another way to put it. Without checking the actual dates, Becker was definitely a better player as a 17 year old, also as an 18 year old, although with the gap closing, but Rafa was better as a 19 year old.

are you suggesting 2>1, now you are gonna make someone really angry.

 

[Ricardo]

It's a question of how much you want to count 'getting there but not being there,' and Slams. Becker has the Slams. But if you're going to talk about how close he was in other tournaments, that's still just showing future promise. It's not wins. And if you're buying into "close," Rafa was as close as you can come to being a teenager when he won his 2nd RG. I'm not saying you're wrong to make the argument, but it is very close.

i'll summarise for you, Becker overall did much better in Slams.....had more successful years as teenager also, that would trump the 2 extra MS and small tourneys in anyone's language......except if we speak Moxian.

 

[Ricardo]

Moxie never fails to understand that you can recognise a fact even it doesn't suit you or your agendas, preferences and whatnot. I much much prefer Rafa, as a player, and as a person. But that has nothing to do with the FACT that Becker was 'greater' as a teenager......come on, the guy won Wimbledon back to back at 17 and 18, that's just out of the planet and unheard of.

 

[Ricardo]

It's a question of how much you want to count 'getting there but not being there,' and Slams. Becker has the Slams. But if you're going to talk about how close he was in other tournaments, that's still just showing future promise. It's not wins. And if you're buying into "close," Rafa was as close as you can come to being a teenager when he won his 2nd RG. I'm not saying you're wrong to make the argument, but it is very close.

perfect example here, you would say anything to win an argument. So someone getting deep in slams multiple times would be totally discounted, if he didn't win it. Does that make you as 'great' as David Ferrer?

ps can someone help her out by injecting some logic juice into her?

 

[El Dude]

I can buy your general argument, Ricardo, although am not sure it was worth making four posts in a row bagging on Moxie.

 

[Ricardo]

I can buy your general argument, Ricardo, although am not sure it was worth making four posts in a row bagging on Moxie.

yeah well just like its probably not worth 10000+ posts about who is GOAT and things like that, but we do it anyway. and i wanted to see how much more biased she can get when i put forward facts that can't really be debated.