Stop the Posturing

[Front242]

NADAL2005RG, what people are objecting to is your black and white fandom. You don't give credit for victories against Nadal, and you talk about Rafa as if he'll never lose another match, unless he's injured. Personally, I don't mind extreme views and fanboy stuff, I think it a'' adds to the mix, but you also have to give credit where it's due, ya know?

Even if it's through gritted teeth and with your fingers crossed! :snigger

So I'm supposed to deny Nadal his injuries now? Even Nadal has pointed out when he was injured. Do you admonish Nadal for telling the truth? Yes, Nadal is good at telling the world why he lost big matches, much like you. Is the true, no? Kneed I go on?

I talk as if Nadal will never lose another match unless he's injured? Can you provide a quote please? You really need to stick to the facts for your next personal attack.

In the PRP treatment thread you said if such things as magic injections existed there'd have been no losses at Halle 2012 and Wimbledon 2012. Way to credit the great play of Kohlschreiber and Rosol. Anyway, I'd say the magic injections have been just that personally. Seen Nadal play well lately?

Really, ugh!? This is why I get bristly with these so called "more humble" Fed and Nole fans. They hide under a guise of civility but then you will find then clinging unto the most disgusting, unfounded rumor to down play Rafa's successes. These big-headed and uppity people, who would scoff at Rafa just because they don't like his freakin stroke production. Get over yourselves!

The truth is, everyone had their chance to gloat:

Fed fans have been spoiled for several years that they feel like every megalomania that comes out of their mouth about their precious Fed is cold hard truth, that it's obvious, "duh", how can I not know!?!? Now, they're frustrated they can't talk like that for very obvious reasons. So these green-eyed monsters are out policing everyone now.

Nole fans have had a couple of years now to beat on their chest and rip their shirts, spelling out doom and gloom for Rafa, Fed and others "when Nole is on," as if no actually has a chance. puh-leeeeeze.

Now, Rafa fans get the chance to another turn at the top and will be trying to dispel all the crazy claims with crazy claims of their own. Now Rafa fans are claiming phoenix rising out of the ashes, forgetting that they do burn out.

The common theme here is that they all did seem true ... until they weren't. We're all passionate about tennis here and have biases, no one can claim other wise! There's no fan base "better" in this area - don't make me gag.

No idea what crazy claim or rumour you're alluding to but I was merely pointing out to NADAL2005RG that Rafa's PRP treatments have clearly been very successful or he wouldn't have recovered so quickly. He's the one that should make you gag if you so choose as he was making excuses for Halle and Wimbledon 2012 and saying if the PRP treatment truly did work he wouldn't have lost those matches. Reality check, the opponents played fantastic matches and maybe just maybe that's why Nadal lost. My reply was about excusing those losses and that the PRP did actually work or he wouldn't have come back so strong.

 

[zalvar]

NADAL2005RG, what people are objecting to is your black and white fandom. You don't give credit for victories against Nadal, and you talk about Rafa as if he'll never lose another match, unless he's injured. Personally, I don't mind extreme views and fanboy stuff, I think it a'' adds to the mix, but you also have to give credit where it's due, ya know?

Even if it's through gritted teeth and with your fingers crossed! :snigger

So I'm supposed to deny Nadal his injuries now? Even Nadal has pointed out when he was injured. Do you admonish Nadal for telling the truth? Yes, Nadal is good at telling the world why he lost big matches, much like you. Is the true, no? Kneed I go on?

I talk as if Nadal will never lose another match unless he's injured? Can you provide a quote please? You really need to stick to the facts for your next personal attack.

In the PRP treatment thread you said if such things as magic injections existed there'd have been no losses at Halle 2012 and Wimbledon 2012. Way to credit the great play of Kohlschreiber and Rosol. Anyway, I'd say the magic injections have been just that personally. Seen Nadal play well lately?

Really, ugh!? This is why I get bristly with these so called "more humble" Fed and Nole fans. They hide under a guise of civility but then you will find then clinging unto the most disgusting, unfounded rumor to down play Rafa's successes. These big-headed and uppity people, who would scoff at Rafa just because they don't like his freakin stroke production. Get over yourselves!

The truth is, everyone had their chance to gloat:

Fed fans have been spoiled for several years that they feel like every megalomania that comes out of their mouth about their precious Fed is cold hard truth, that it's obvious, "duh", how can I not know!?!? Now, they're frustrated they can't talk like that for very obvious reasons. So these green-eyed monsters are out policing everyone now.

Nole fans have had a couple of years now to beat on their chest and rip their shirts, spelling out doom and gloom for Rafa, Fed and others "when Nole is on," as if no actually has a chance. puh-leeeeeze.

Now, Rafa fans get the chance to another turn at the top and will be trying to dispel all the crazy claims with crazy claims of their own. Now Rafa fans are claiming phoenix rising out of the ashes, forgetting that they do burn out.

The common theme here is that they all did seem true ... until they weren't. We're all passionate about tennis here and have biases, no one can claim other wise! There's no fan base "better" in this area - don't make me gag.

No idea what crazy claim or rumour you're alluding to but I was merely pointing out to NADAL2005RG that Rafa's PRP treatments have clearly been very successful or he wouldn't have recovered so quickly. He's the one that should make you gag if you so choose as he was making excuses for Halle and Wimbledon 2012 and saying if the PRP treatment truly did work he wouldn't have lost those matches. Reality check, the opponents played fantastic matches and maybe just maybe that's why Nadal lost. My reply was about excusing those losses and that the PRP did actually work or he wouldn't have come back so strong.

First of all, my bad, but most of my reply was for the OP.

As far the those losses last year, I didn't see the Kohls match but Rosol was insanely good - not even Rafa with knees can beat liner winners shot after shot. I agree with you, sorry.

And I guess it goes without saying to take NADAL2005RG's comments with a grain of salt. I do it, even if we are cheering for the same guy.

 

[Moxie]

But there should be a ban on anyone who describes a poster in a derogatory manner. You can understand conflicts in real life because people are behaving off the cuff. But online, there is time between your thought and the typing and posting. Surely enough time to realize you are about to cross the line. People will learn this if 2 week suspensions are handed out for name-calling.

There is a system of warnings in place here. No one gets banned for one infraction. But our ears are open to complaints. And anyone can alert a post that they feel infringes on the rules, and will be considered on its merits.

 

[Moxie]

"My favorite tennis player is better than your favorite tennis player, who was just lucky when he beat my tennis player, who was injured and/or not playing his best."

I don't know how many times I've heard some variation of the above from (supposedly) grown men (women tend not to stoop this low, or at least have their own version of posturing that is a bit more subtle).

It gets ridiculous and, unfortunately, obfuscates more interesting conversation. I'm all for comparing the records of players and discussing their relative levels, but every time posturing creeps into the conversation, the waters get muddied. I just don't see the point of it. I mean, I know people identify with their favorite sports team/player, but it seems there is this common, unconscious assumption that the performance and greatness of one's favorite player somehow translates into one's self-worth and standing, as if I am great because Roger is (or was) great; as if I beat you because Roger beat your favorite player.

Look, for you Rafa fans out there that are doing this, let it go. Rafa is an amazing player who is having a third peak - enjoy that. I certainly am, although probably not as much as you. Enjoy it not only because Rafa is amazing, but because it won't last - and this is another reason to stop the posturing, because it gets in the way of your own enjoyment. Stop belittling Novak Djokovic, Roger Federer, and fans of other players. Enjoy Rafa's greatness in its own right, not in relation to how you can feel a false sense of superiority over your fellow tennis fans.

I could say the same thing to Novak fans when he was on top, or Roger fans when he was on top (although they/we seemed more humble last year for that short spell because it was so unexpected and appreciated; I can't remember because I didn't hang out on tennis forums and was pretty much a solo fan back then, but I imagine they/we were rather annoying in 2004-2008).

Let's get back to enjoying the game of tennis. And yes, let's talk about how great Novak was in 2011 compared to Nadal in 2013. Let's talk about whether or not Andy is as good as Novak. But let's try to stop, or at least minimize, the posturing. Not only is it obfuscating, its just plain unelegant, like a post-2012 Federer shank .

I quote your post and Kieran's below, because they are the pith of the point. I agree with you, Dude, that there is a difference between arguing from the POV of a fan, and allowing one's ego to become too involved, too wrapped up in the results of their own player. It does get in the way of good tennis conversation. However, to Kieran's point below....

In fairness, fan altercations are part and parcel of forums. How often have we heard the GOAT stuff, 2011, Rafa's knees, etc? These are belief systems. We all actually believe the same, except of different players.

Long as it doesn't become personal, it's fine, and even though it inevitably will become personal, long as it doesn't stay that way...

...yes, there will be scrums. Why are we here, if not to debate tennis? And we clearly come at it from different preferences. The ambition is to bruise, at worst, but not bloody, and to come out shaking hands. To go back to El Dude's original point, if folks can keep the ego out of it, and no one stays entrenched in one position, we can keep the conversation moving along with the ever-changing fortunes of the game.

 

[NADAL2005RG]

But there should be a ban on anyone who describes a poster in a derogatory manner. You can understand conflicts in real life because people are behaving off the cuff. But online, there is time between your thought and the typing and posting. Surely enough time to realize you are about to cross the line. People will learn this if 2 week suspensions are handed out for name-calling.

There is a system of warnings in place here. No one gets banned for one infraction. But our ears are open to complaints. And anyone can alert a post that they feel infringes on the rules, and will be considered on its merits.

Meanwhile, personal attack upon personal attack upon personal attack.

I'm posting about tennis, giving my honest opinion on tennis matters, and then the thread is ambushed by bitter posters and their one sentence cheap shots. If you don't get rid of those posters, the board will never be cleaned up. But, makes no difference to me personally. I'll always have my tennis opinion. Whether the other posters want to attack with their cheap shots, makes no difference to me personally. But those attacks sure make a difference to the board and its maturity level and how the world sees this board.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

[/quote]

Meanwhile, personal attack upon personal attack upon personal attack.

I'm posting about tennis, giving my honest opinion on tennis matters, and then the thread is ambushed by bitter posters and their one sentence cheap shots. If you don't get rid of those posters, the board will never be cleaned up. But, makes no difference to me personally. I'll always have my tennis opinion. Whether the other posters want to attack with their cheap shots, makes no difference to me personally. But those attacks sure make a difference to the board and its maturity level and how the world sees this board.
[/quote]

As long as you realize those are just that and there are other ones out there, tennis discussions that you seek will happen in a more civilized and entertaining level. Nobody is saying change your opinion...just respect the other side, that's all.

 

[NADAL2005RG]

I'll continue to post my tennis opinion, as always. What others do, abuse, name-call, attack, is hopefully something they'll grow out of. And even if they don't mature, they'll never make me reduce my prediction of Nadal winning 18-22 slam titles.

 

[Moxie]

As long as you realize those are just that and there are other ones out there, tennis discussions that you seek will happen in a more civilized and entertaining level. Nobody is saying change your opinion...just respect the other side, that's all.
[/quote]

I'll continue to post my tennis opinion, as always. What others do, abuse, name-call, attack, is hopefully something they'll grow out of. And even if they don't mature, they'll never make me reduce my prediction of Nadal winning 18-22 slam titles.

Perhaps you missed Murat's point, because it wasn't imbedded correctly. See above. And you are welcome to your prediction, though folks will ask you to back it up. Just debate, and don't be so prickly about it. I promise you that joining the conversation will make you happier than standing alone in the wilderness, clinging to assertions about a future you can't know, or excuses about a past that can't be changed. Really...

 

[NADAL2005RG]

Whatever anyone says, Nadal missed 7 months due to injury. That's a fact, not an excuse or opinion.

And I did back up my 18-22 prediction, if you bothered to check, but I was still bashed. Even after "backing up a prediction" some people will be prickly toward you just because you don't share the same prediction as them.

You just said I'm not allowed to "cling to assertions about a future you don't know". See, people don't "know" predictions, so are you saying predictions are not allowed? I could have sworn I saw many predictions, including some whereby Nadal would not win 17 slam titles. That prediction is ok, right?