Roger's New Shot

[Murat Baslamisli]

It is such a stretch, even for Roger to utilize this new trick, I thought maybe we can discuss it technically a bit further. At first glance, it is a club player level shot that looks like an insult to the opponent and I am sure most will agree that it should be used sparingly, but:

Advantages

- Most shots Roger hits from the baseline are half volleys anyways. He is totally used to it.
- Those high bouncing kickers are nullified.
-A servers momentum usually carries his body a couple meters inside the court. When Roger gets that shot nice and deep (not even powerful or with spin, which would be extremely difficult that close to the net) , that takes so much time away quickly from the server and puts him in a very vulnerable position having to backpedal and hit a defensive shot. Which Roger will easily put away at the net.
-Even shorter points for Roger. He is not getting any younger...
-You get in your opponents head. They might go for bigger second serves and miss, or go for smaller first serves so that they do not have to have a second serve.

Disadvantages
-When it does not work, you are a sitting duck at the net.
-It is a very difficult shot to generate any power or top spin because you are so close to the net, so the block has to be near perfect to be effective.
-Opponents might take it personal and go for your head the next serve.
-Roger cannot fall in love with it...There will be many times where sitting back and building up the point traditionally will be a better choice, especially against self destructing players.

So...?

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Who said that you cannot teach a old Fed New Tricks?

His ROS was quite miserable the last two years and so anything to spruce it up would be welcome.
Typically, his return was so standard and predictable and is almost always not an aggressive shot.
It was just trying to get the ball in play. So, it is now time to make the ROS also aggressive.
This charging half volley, chip and charge etc are nice things as a way of adding to the mixture.
Needless to say Rog is trying it only on second serves and so it is alright.

All the players got to see it only in this tourney and so did not have much time to think about strategically. Let us see as to what folks come up with as a way to counter this.

Well, he tried it against all the five players and it worked against all five of them (RBA, Anderson, Lopez, Andy and Novak). I don't know the exact percentage of times, it worked, but I would guess it is over 50%. So, there is no reason to drop it.

 

[DarthFed]

It is such a stretch, even for Roger to utilize this new trick, I thought maybe we can discuss it technically a bit further. At first glance, it is a club player level shot that looks like an insult to the opponent and I am sure most will agree that it should be used sparingly, but:

Advantages

- Most shots Roger hits from the baseline are half volleys anyways. He is totally used to it.
- Those high bouncing kickers are nullified.
-A servers momentum usually carries his body a couple meters inside the court. When Roger gets that shot nice and deep (not even powerful or with spin, which would be extremely difficult that close to the net) , that takes so much time away quickly from the server and puts him in a very vulnerable position having to backpedal and hit a defensive shot. Which Roger will easily put away at the net.
-Even shorter points for Roger. He is not getting any younger...
-You get in your opponents head. They might go for bigger second serves and miss, or go for smaller first serves so that they do not have to have a second serve.

Disadvantages
-When it does not work, you are a sitting duck at the net.
-It is a very difficult shot to generate any power or top spin because you are so close to the net, so the block has to be near perfect to be effective.
-Opponents might take it personal and go for your head the next serve.
-Roger cannot fall in love with it...There will be many times where sitting back and building up the point traditionally will be a better choice, especially against self destructing players.

So...?

The last advantage is the biggest factor IMO. Roger has very rarely mixed up his return as far as court position or aggressiveness. For the most part he's just a foot or two behind the baseline and will slice the backhand on both 1st and 2nd serves. IMO Roger's return has become a weakness as he's aged and even just switching things up and giving the server some different looks is a good thing at this point. We all know Novak is deadly if he gets in a rhythm from the baseline. I think Nole has also gotten into a nice rhythm with his serve against Roger which has made the battle that much tougher.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Anything to change his usual predictable and pedestrian returning pattern, especially against Novak, is fine by me. I still think pure chip and charge is dead and Roger needs to stay away from it beyond the occasional approach to give his opponent a different look and something to think about, but I don't mind taking it on the half volley.

That said, this time it caught Novak by surprise. In a best of 5 set, when Novak starts picking up on it, I think he'll handle it fine because I don't trust Roger's ability to hit deep returns consistently (never was his strength, especially in the last 4 years or so).

 

[mrzz]

First things first, when was the last time someone brought a "new" shot to the game (I know it is not exactly new, but you know what I mean)?. Give the guy a lot of credit for that.

I think it will be used with parsimony and thus keep paying dividends. And I think it is not that easy to counter it. Course, once you expect it, it gets easier to respond. But it is definitely a new weapon and it won't go away soon.

If it has worked against Murray and Djokovic, it will be very effective against lesser players. I think Federer will "practice" it a lot in the early rounds of the USO

 

[Kieran]

This is an incredible innovation and he's to be applauded for it. It shows wit, daring, and it challenges the server in a new way. Federer said it started when he was clowning around in training, and it smacks of that kind of thing. And why not, eh? A gift that Late-Fed might leave the sport is the example of how the game used to be played, before everybody gave up on spontaneity, and the forecourt...

 

[the AntiPusher]

Very nice shot by Federer. It reminds me a bit of this player(Monica Niculescu)

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=serena%20williams%20vs%20monica%20niculescu%202015&qs=RI&form=QBVR&pq=monica%20niculescu%20vs%20serena%20williams&sc=1-35&sp=1&sk=#view=detail&mid=0DC3EC13A601CAEC123D0DC3EC13A601CAEC123D

but a Roger's shot is a bit more aggressive. I have seen this shot hit very consistent by a mid 50's guy who coaches and plays in the Chicagoland area. This guy routinely beats late teen to mid 20's players who play on the challenger tour.

 

[Puppet Master]

If executed well, there really is no counter to it, apart from some magic get which will force an error from Fed. That, or if someone anticipates it and then goes for his head. As someone already said, Roger really needs to spice up his return game for obvious reasons, and I guess he found a way, at least on the faster courts.

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

This is an incredible innovation and he's to be applauded for it. It shows wit, daring, and it challenges the server in a new way. Federer said it started when he was clowning around in training, and it smacks of that kind of thing. And why not, eh? A gift that Late-Fed might leave the sport is the example of how the game used to be played, before everybody gave up on spontaneity, and the forecourt...

fully agree. it really got me excited (so excited that it basically thrusted me back onto the board for a little while, even though work is crazy )

-You get in your opponents head. They might go for bigger second serves and miss, or go for smaller first serves so that they do not have to have a second serve.

The last advantage is the biggest factor IMO. Roger has very rarely mixed up his return as far as court position or aggressiveness. For the most part he's just a foot or two behind the baseline and will slice the backhand on both 1st and 2nd serves. IMO Roger's return has become a weakness as he's aged and even just switching things up and giving the server some different looks is a good thing at this point. We all know Novak is deadly if he gets in a rhythm from the baseline. I think Nole has also gotten into a nice rhythm with his serve against Roger which has made the battle that much tougher.

agree, and w/ broken and gssm as well. his ROS was one of the reasons he lost the last two Wimby finals. so this approach, as wild as it is, is a good thing. also, did anyone notice that Fed went for quite a few clean return winners (on 2nd serves) against Novak (and in the semis against Andy as well)? more than in the past, i feel. it's usually what Berdych does against him, and it could really help his game overall.

 

[mrzz]

Well, he tried it against all the five players and it worked against all five of them (RBA, Anderson, Lopez, Andy and Novak). I don't know the exact percentage of times, it worked, but I would guess it is over 50%. So, there is no reason to drop it.

To my memory it worked well over than 50%, but 50% is not the target. Your target is your own rate of success while returning serve, which in general is quite bellow 50%.

 

[MartyB]

If I'm not mistaken the last player to effectively use this kind of ROS or chip and charge with this kind of effectiveness was McEnroe. Especially against Lendl. I think the rest of the tour is now aware and it's effect will be seen at the US Open even if Fed doesn't use it as often it will put added pressure on the server no matter who it is. I think he will use it and if he can keep up the kind of % he did here (I know slower surface etc.) or even close it will pay big dividends. When I think about it what other player on the current tour could pull off this shot? Not many. I could name a lot more in a different era.

 

[Kirijax]

If I'm not mistaken the last player to effectively use this kind of ROS or chip and charge with this kind of effectiveness was McEnroe. Especially against Lendl. I think the rest of the tour is now aware and it's effect will be seen at the US Open even if Fed doesn't use it as often it will put added pressure on the server no matter who it is. I think he will use it and if he can keep up the kind of % he did here (I know slower surface etc.) or even close it will pay big dividends. When I think about it what other player on the current tour could pull off this shot? Not many. I could name a lot more in a different era.

That's exactly who it reminded me of too. McEnroe would always charge the serve, chip it back and get right up to volley. I'm kind of surprised Federer has never done this before. And how he says he kind of came up with it by accident during a boring practice session is weird. It will be interesting to see if he tries it more in the USO.

 

[Fiero425]

If I'm not mistaken the last player to effectively use this kind of ROS or chip and charge with this kind of effectiveness was McEnroe. Especially against Lendl. I think the rest of the tour is now aware and it's effect will be seen at the US Open even if Fed doesn't use it as often it will put added pressure on the server no matter who it is. I think he will use it and if he can keep up the kind of % he did here (I know slower surface etc.) or even close it will pay big dividends. When I think about it what other player on the current tour could pull off this shot? Not many. I could name a lot more in a different era.

That's exactly who it reminded me of too. McEnroe would always charge the serve, chip it back and get right up to volley. I'm kind of surprised Federer has never done this before. And how he says he kind of came up with it by accident during a boring practice session is weird. It will be interesting to see if he tries it more in the USO.

You're kidding? I'm starting to think Roger isn't half as smart as I thought! He had the most aggressive coaches in the history of the game and he's just coming to realize this is what he needs to do? What an idiot! And I thought Rafa and Andy were mentally deficient; mon DIEU! :cover uzzled :nono :angel: :dodgy:

 

[brokenshoelace]

If I'm not mistaken the last player to effectively use this kind of ROS or chip and charge with this kind of effectiveness was McEnroe. Especially against Lendl. I think the rest of the tour is now aware and it's effect will be seen at the US Open even if Fed doesn't use it as often it will put added pressure on the server no matter who it is. I think he will use it and if he can keep up the kind of % he did here (I know slower surface etc.) or even close it will pay big dividends. When I think about it what other player on the current tour could pull off this shot? Not many. I could name a lot more in a different era.

That's exactly who it reminded me of too. McEnroe would always charge the serve, chip it back and get right up to volley. I'm kind of surprised Federer has never done this before. And how he says he kind of came up with it by accident during a boring practice session is weird. It will be interesting to see if he tries it more in the USO.

You're kidding? I'm starting to think Roger isn't half as smart as I thought! He had the most aggressive coaches in the history of the game and he's just coming to realize this is what he needs to do? What an idiot! And I thought Rafa and Andy were mentally deficient; mon DIEU! :cover uzzled :nono :angel: :dodgy:

If you genuinely thought Nadal and Murray, who probably have the highest tennis IQ out of anyone on tour, are mentally deficient (and that's not even touching on the absurd Federer comments you just made), then I'd say people with glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

[Fiero425]

That's exactly who it reminded me of too. McEnroe would always charge the serve, chip it back and get right up to volley. I'm kind of surprised Federer has never done this before. And how he says he kind of came up with it by accident during a boring practice session is weird. It will be interesting to see if he tries it more in the USO.

You're kidding? I'm starting to think Roger isn't half as smart as I thought! He had the most aggressive coaches in the history of the game and he's just coming to realize this is what he needs to do? What an idiot! And I thought Rafa and Andy were mentally deficient; mon DIEU! :cover uzzled :nono :angel: :dodgy:

If you genuinely thought Nadal and Murray, who probably have the highest tennis IQ out of anyone on tour, are mentally deficient (and that's not even touching on the absurd Federer comments you just made), then I'd say people with glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

How smart is it to get into 3+ hour battles with players not even ranked in the top 20 in early rounds? You have to be mentally deficient if you think that's a smart way to go just because they won! I think I heard Murray had been out on court 6 hours longer than Roger in Cinn.; WHY? It's from playing that stupid counter-punching crap that allows player to take him to the limit; sometimes needing to save match points! Same with Rafa who scurries around like a squirrel making great "gets" and producing incredible passing shots, but still hanging back near the backstop allowing inferior players to run him to death! Again, is that a smart tactic as you get older and more broken down? (no pun intended) :cover uzzled :nono :angel: :dodgy: - Get a grip! I know what I'm talking about! :ras:

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

If I'm not mistaken the last player to effectively use this kind of ROS or chip and charge with this kind of effectiveness was McEnroe. Especially against Lendl. I think the rest of the tour is now aware and it's effect will be seen at the US Open even if Fed doesn't use it as often it will put added pressure on the server no matter who it is. I think he will use it and if he can keep up the kind of % he did here (I know slower surface etc.) or even close it will pay big dividends. When I think about it what other player on the current tour could pull off this shot? Not many. I could name a lot more in a different era.

That's exactly who it reminded me of too. McEnroe would always charge the serve, chip it back and get right up to volley. I'm kind of surprised Federer has never done this before. And how he says he kind of came up with it by accident during a boring practice session is weird. It will be interesting to see if he tries it more in the USO.

You're kidding? I'm starting to think Roger isn't half as smart as I thought! He had the most aggressive coaches in the history of the game and he's just coming to realize this is what he needs to do? What an idiot! And I thought Rafa and Andy were mentally deficient; mon DIEU! :cover uzzled :nono :angel: :dodgy:

wait - you're kidding, right? you're not actually suggesting that this approach is something he should've logically gone to earlier? mind you, this is not simple chip'n'charge - he's been doing that for a while. this is something different. this is not six feet inside the baseline, this is six feet from the service box line. different beast altogether. not something any reasonable coach would've suggested - not in this day and age, but probably not even before.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Just to clarify again what is going on, this is not chip and charge whatsoever. Roger has done that a million times before. This is a half volley service return almost at the service line. I do not recall seeing this except in my club.

 

[mrzz]

How smart is it to get into 3+ hour battles with players not even ranked in the top 20 in early rounds? You have to be mentally deficient if you think that's a smart way to go just because they won! I think I heard Murray had been out on court 6 hours longer than Roger in Cinn.; WHY? It's from playing that stupid counter-punching crap that allows player to take him to the limit; sometimes needing to save match points! Same with Rafa who scurries around like a squirrel making great "gets" and producing incredible passing shots, but still hanging back near the backstop allowing inferior players to run him to death! Again, is that a smart tactic as you get older and more broken down? (no pun intended) :cover uzzled :nono :angel: :dodgy: - Get a grip! I know what I'm talking about! :ras:

Fiero, c'mon... after the thing is there for everyone to see, it becomes obvious. It's a Columbus' egg...

But there's a reason no one has tried it for the last, I do not know, 20 years... in fact there are two: it is not obvious, and it is hard.

How many players can actually accomplish this? You have to read the serve well, have very good reflexes and a very good half-volley, and you have to be a very good volleyer... and even like this it is a risky proposition. I really do not remember any threads with the title "Why don't Federer attacks the second serve with half volleys?".

 

[Kieran]

It has the element of surprise, but it also has a very limited shot coming after this, and that's why it's such a high risk strategy, and not one I think he'll seriously overdo at Flushing Meadows. They'll read it, and because he has so little time to address the shot that if they're expecting it, they'll destroy him with it. I love the idea though, and he gets great kudos for having the gall to bring his adventures in the playground onto the actual court of battle...

 

[Fiero425]

How smart is it to get into 3+ hour battles with players not even ranked in the top 20 in early rounds? You have to be mentally deficient if you think that's a smart way to go just because they won! I think I heard Murray had been out on court 6 hours longer than Roger in Cinn.; WHY? It's from playing that stupid counter-punching crap that allows player to take him to the limit; sometimes needing to save match points! Same with Rafa who scurries around like a squirrel making great "gets" and producing incredible passing shots, but still hanging back near the backstop allowing inferior players to run him to death! Again, is that a smart tactic as you get older and more broken down? (no pun intended) :cover uzzled :nono :angel: :dodgy: - Get a grip! I know what I'm talking about! :ras:

Fiero, c'mon... after the thing is there for everyone to see, it becomes obvious. It's a Columbus' egg...

But there's a reason no one has tried it for the last, I do not know, 20 years... in fact there are two: it is not obvious, and it is hard.

How many players can actually accomplish this? You have to read the serve well, have very good reflexes and a very good half-volley, and you have to be a very good volleyer... and even like this it is a risky proposition. I really do not remember any threads with the title "Why don't Federer attacks the second serve with half volleys?".

But Roger hasn't been successful doing it his way; hanging back on the baseline! I'm still amazed Rafa and Nole beat him on grass! He might as well of tried to do something differently! We'll have to agree to disagree for now! :angel: