Revised Top 10 For Men All Time

[Fiero425]

Novak has a chance of repeating his 2012-2014 run, but I don't think he can repeat his 2011 or 2015 season any more. Merely repeating his 2012-2014 run would not even get him close to Rafa, forget about Roger.

I would never bring up 2015; a record season set that none of these New Gen'rs have a chance of achieving! It's one thing to win 3 majors, but to add 6 Masters and being in all 8 finals played is just unattainable in this lifetime or the next! That season will set him apart from Fedal and just about every other great besides Laver who won the CYGS; regardless if he never takes another major title! You see what it did to Nole; it was all downhill after completing his Nole-Slam in Paris last year! :whistle:

 

[the AntiPusher]

Novak has a chance of repeating his 2012-2014 run, but I don't think he can repeat his 2011 or 2015 season any more. Merely repeating his 2012-2014 run would not even get him close to Rafa, forget about Roger.

Remember, I was the sole person who stated last year the Roger and Rafa would return to the top of the rankings.. ask El dude

 

[Federberg]

Remember, I was the sole person who stated last year the Roger and Rafa would return to the top of the rankings.. ask El dude

I don't think you were the only one. I've repeatedly said, where Roger was concerned, that he was still a contender for slams. But kudos to you, the cream always rises to the top and as far as I'm concerned there's never been anything creamier in mens tennis than Fedal

 

[Jelenafan]

If Rafa, age 31 and Roger, age 35 can both win 2 Majors and climb back to top rankings, I think Djokovic returning to the top is more than feasible, ditto winning multiple slams in one year, or yes several years. Combine with his winning career h2h record with all the top players (Federer, Nadal, Murray, etc. Having a game that translates well on all surfaces, I think it's more a matter of his head than physical injuries.

 

[Federberg]

Definitely his head. That’s why I’m waiting to see how he does in the first half of the year. I think he’s different to Fedal in that Roger moves on from losses fairly quickly most of the time, and Rafa is tough and always has clay to escape to. This is new territory for Novak. It’s one thing to climb the mountain and reach the top, quite another to get there slip off and have to do it again

 

[Moxie]

Definitely his head. That’s why I’m waiting to see how he does in the first half of the year. I think he’s different to Fedal in that Roger moves on from losses fairly quickly most of the time, and Rafa is tough and always has clay to escape to. This is new territory for Novak. It’s one thing to climb the mountain and reach the top, quite another to get there slip off and have to do it again

Good points, all. That's why we're all waiting to see how he comes back. He's got the game, and it will be there for him, but will the belief and desire be? I think he's mentally more fragile (by not a huge margin, mind) than Roger and Rafa. His game relies on a lot of self-confidence, and when he's not feeling it, he has more of a tendency than those two to get negative and wobbly.

As to your claim last year that Roger and Rafa would get back to the top of the game, I will give you some real stake in that, and props. We were two boards, so who knows all of what was said, but I, personally, never thought Roger would win another Major, and mostly only hoped that Rafa would pass Pete. At the end of last year, most of us believed we were coming into 2017 with Novak and Andy fighting it out all year, and Fedal fading into late-career. So, @Jelenafan, sure...who's to know, as to Novak (or Andy) next year? I'd almost give up prognosticating, but where would be the fun in that?

 

[Fiero425]

How the tide has turned! I already ranted about it, but it's coming to mind again! We were ready to anoint Sampras as the GOAT just 15 years ago without a FO final being played and ending career with 14 Majors! Now he's barely in the top 6 all-time behind 2 time CYGS champ Rod Laver, Fedal, Nole, & Borg! :whistle:

 

[Moxie]

How the tide has turned! I already ranted about it, but it's coming to mind again! We were ready to anoint Sampras as the GOAT just 15 years ago without a FO final being played and ending career with 14 Majors! Now he's barely in the top 6 all-time behind 2 time CYGS champ Rod Laver, Fedal, Nole, & Borg

Some were ready to anoint Sampras. I think that's when this who "GOAT" business started.

 

[Front242]

Sampras is barely in the top 6? He finished with 14 slams and last time I checked Novak had "only" 12. So, no, he is not nearly out of the top 6 and people can spin as much as they want about him having never won the French Open but he still has 2 more slams than Novak.

Sampras also won 7 YECs and finished year end number 1 for 6 consecutive years which is insane. I wasn't ever much of a Sampras fan but no way is he currently behind Djokovic.

 

[Obsi]

Novak has a chance of repeating his 2012-2014 run, but I don't think he can repeat his 2011 or 2015 season any more. Merely repeating his 2012-2014 run would not even get him close to Rafa

If Djokovic repeats his 2012-2014 run, he will win another 3 slams. He’s got 12 now, so with additional 3 he will have 15. That’s just 1 less than Nadal’s 16.

 

[Ricardo]

Sampras is barely in the top 6? He finished with 14 slams and last time I checked Novak had "only" 12. So, no, he is not nearly out of the top 6 and people can spin as much as they want about him having never won the French Open but he still has 2 more slams than Novak.

Sampras also won 7 YECs and finished year end number 1 for 6 consecutive years which is insane. I wasn't ever much of a Sampras fan but no way is he currently behind Djokovic.

he won 5 YECs. Djoker has a case as he is overall stronger player with no weak surface. He is the most successful player at AO while Sampras has been equalled or surpassed at every slam, and of course Novak has multiple 3 slam years plus the very special Novak slam, which is much harder to do than what Sampras accomplished.

 

[britbox]

Some were ready to anoint Sampras. I think that's when this who "GOAT" business started.

Blame Michael Jordan! or more likely the American media at the time who created the GOAT label for Basketball and for Gretzsky in hockey. Sampras is up among the best but passing Emerson is hardly the way to qualify it. Emerson wouldn't be anybody's GOAT or even in the discussion!

 

[Moxie]

Blame Michael Jordan! or more likely the American media at the time who created the GOAT label for Basketball and for Gretzsky in hockey. Sampras is up among the best but passing Emerson is hardly the way to qualify it. Emerson wouldn't be anybody's GOAT or even in the discussion!

I do, actually. In other conversations, here or in life, I have said I think the GOAT business started with them. So when Pete came along, there seemed to be a lot of interest in making him the tennis GOAT. And then along came forum discussions on the internet, and Federer, and now we feel we must assign a GOAT.

 

[Front242]

he won 5 YECs. Djoker has a case as he is overall stronger player with no weak surface. He is the most successful player at AO while Sampras has been equalled or surpassed at every slam, and of course Novak has multiple 3 slam years plus the very special Novak slam, which is much harder to do than what Sampras accomplished.

Guess Wiki must be wrong so. I questioned 7 in my head when posting that but was searching on my phone on my way to work and that's what the link says. Re the Novak slam which I actually expected OTM to mention, I don't personally give it as much credit as I would have if he'd won it in a strong era/year 'cos the competition has been pitiful the last few years. I mean, sure, it was Nadal's fault he lost in the first round of the AO 2016 but the competition has still been woeful. Likewise, Nadal's wrist injury at RG 2016, again not Novak's fault, but let's call a spade a spade. Nadal was actually back playing well last year on clay and Novak's quest was made SO much easier with him out with the withdrawal after his wrist injury and facing Murray in the final. Federer was also very poor at Wimbledon 2015 and the 2015 USO final. Djokovic didn't need to play all that amazing to win at all. The year before, Novak was in his best form that I've seen though at Wimbledon 2014 and full credit to him there for the win but 2015 was a gift by Roger and same at the USO. He played like his true age/like turd to be honest so the Novak slam, while extremely difficult to achieve on paper, was not too difficult given how things panned out. No way Novak or anyone else, Federer and Nadal included, would have won all 4 in the era Sampras played in.

Re the 7 YECs, he won 5 YECs and 2 GSCs which were basically the same thing. You could argue the GSC wins are actually more impressive given the semi and final were best of 5 same way as Federer and Nadal have more difficult masters on their resumes than Djokovic, having won multiple back when they were best of 5 in the final.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_Cup
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Era_tennis_records_–_men's_singles#Year-end_championships

 

[Moxie]

How the tide has turned! I already ranted about it, but it's coming to mind again! We were ready to anoint Sampras as the GOAT just 15 years ago without a FO final being played and ending career with 14 Majors! Now he's barely in the top 6 all-time behind 2 time CYGS champ Rod Laver, Fedal, Nole, & Borg! :whistle:

Not to put too fine a point on it, Fiero, but this thread was started by you...albeit 4 years ago. In your original post, you had Sampras at 3 and Borg at 4. While I get moving Nadal and Djokovic up, I'm unclear as to how Borg moved over Sampras, for you. OK, everyone is allowed to change their mind. Personally, I've loved Borg and not Sampras, but Borg never won 2 of the 4 Majors.

 

[Moxie]

Guess Wiki must be wrong so. I questioned 7 in my head when posting that but was searching on my phone on my way to work and that's what the link says. Re the Novak slam which I actually expected OTM to mention, I don't personally give it as much credit as I would have if he'd won it in a strong era/year 'cos the competition has been pitiful the last few years. I mean, sure, it was Nadal's fault he lost in the first round of the AO 2016 but the competition has still been woeful. Likewise, Nadal's wrist injury at RG 2016, again not Novak's fault, but let's call a spade a spade. Nadal was actually back playing well last year on clay and Novak's quest was made SO much easier with him out with the withdrawal after his wrist injury and facing Murray in the final. Federer was also very poor at Wimbledon 2015 and the 2015 USO final. Djokovic didn't need to play all that amazing to win at all. The year before, Novak was in his best form that I've seen though at Wimbledon 2014 and full credit to him there for the win but 2015 was a gift by Roger and same at the USO. He played like his true age/like turd to be honest so the Novak slam, while extremely difficult to achieve on paper, was not too difficult given how things panned out. No way Novak or anyone else, Federer and Nadal included, would have won all 4 in the era Sampras played in.

Re the 7 YECs, he won 5 YECs and 2 GSCs which were basically the same thing. You could argue the GSC wins are actually more impressive given the semi and final were best of 5 same way as Federer and Nadal have more difficult masters on their resumes than Djokovic, having won multiple back when they were best of 5 in the final.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_Cup
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Era_tennis_records_–_men's_singles#Year-end_championships

In fairness to you, Front, Sampras won the GSC two years, which seems not to have been ATP-sanctioned, but was rather a YEC-equivalent, as it featured all the players with best results at Majors, and Sampras had the best record there, while it was played. (Indoor carpet, it seems.)

 

[Obsi]

Regarding who is greater between Djokovic and Sampras...

Would Sampras have clinched the year-end No. 1 six times if Federer and Nadal had played in the 1990’s?
Would Sampras have won 14 slams if Federer and Nadal had played in the 1990’s?
Would Sampras have spent 286 weeks at No. 1 if Federer and Nadal had played in the 1990s?

 

[Moxie]

he won 5 YECs. Djoker has a case as he is overall stronger player with no weak surface. He is the most successful player at AO while Sampras has been equalled or surpassed at every slam, and of course Novak has multiple 3 slam years plus the very special Novak slam, which is much harder to do than what Sampras accomplished.

Interesting that this is much like the conversation that we were having about Sampras v. Nadal, when Nadal reached 14. If nothing else, Sampras has been the water-line for the players in the last 15 years, anyway. I won't weigh in especially, but I will say that 14 > 12. Novak probably has to get at least one more Major before you start making equivalencies with other accomplishments. And I say that because it's always been made that way in the Fedal wars, too. I don't know that, at this point, Novak gets a 3 Major bump over Sampras.

 

[Jelenafan]

Not to put too fine a point on it, Fiero, but this thread was started by you...albeit 4 years ago. In your original post, you had Sampras at 3 and Borg at 4. While I get moving Nadal and Djokovic up, I'm unclear as to how Borg moved over Sampras, for you. OK, everyone is allowed to change their mind. Personally, I've loved Borg and not Sampras, but Borg never won 2 of the 4 Majors.

Did Borg in all the years he was #1 or #2 ever play down under? I know he played there in 1974.

I would say that in peak Borg's years, the Austrailan Open was much less highly regarded/rated by professional tennis players other then Aussie players. The dominance of the tour by the Aussies from the start of the Open Era propped it up more than somewhat for while. A classic example of it's fall from grace is Jimmy Connors. Jimmy when he was world #1 won it in 1974 and was a finalist in 1975. After that he never played it ever again, zippo, nada. In fact looking at the men winners and finalists from , say, 1976-81 it was for the most part the nadir of that tournament during the Open Era. By The Sampras era things had changed and it was pretty much de rigueur to play the AO, and by then it truly was one of the big four again..

I would place Borg's Masters and WCT wins (3) during that era far more highly rated then winning the AO.

 

[britbox]

Did Borg in all the years he was #1 or #2 ever play down under? I know he played there in 1974.

I would say that in peak Borg's years, the Austrailan Open was much less highly regarded/rated by professional tennis players other then Aussie players. The dominance of the tour by the Aussies from the start of the Open Era propped it up more than somewhat for while. A classic example of it's fall from grace is Jimmy Connors. Jimmy when he was world #1 won it in 1974 and was a finalist in 1975. After that he never played it ever again, zippo, nada. In fact looking at the men winners and finalists from , say, 1976-81 it was for the most part the nadir of that tournament during the Open Era. By The Sampras era things had changed and it was pretty much de rigueur to play the AO, and by then it truly was one of the big four again..

I would place Borg's Masters and WCT wins (3) during that era far more highly rated then winning the AO.

I think that's a fair shout - although Borg did say he'd go to Oz if the Grand Slam was on (when the AO was played at the end of the year) and Connors said he'd follow him in that scenario to try and prevent it happening.