Ok, so no-one's ever won...
- Thread starter Kieran
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El Dude said:
It's his playing style and style of hitting shots. I just can't possibly think of someone as the greatest of all time when they repeatedly win matches with the opponent hitting more winners and having an array of dominant points against him.
Nadal may be the best of all time in terms of "rising to the occasion" of big points, as Kieran likes to say. This is what he did on the set points Isner had in the first set. He is also extremely consistent and stable. You know you're going to get solid points from him time after time. But there is still the permanent element of his game that his dependent on the opponent's faults more than his excellence.
So, as a shotmaker, there is no way you can consider his peak better than that of numerous other players, including Federer and Djokovic. But in terms of effectivness on "clutch" points, Nadal probably is the best player of all time. I think that case can certainly be made.
It has gotten to the point where any time there is an important break point, you feel as a spectator that there is a 90%-plus chance of Nadal winning it. Granted, he didn't play Murray or Del Potro the last two weeks, and Djokovic did blow the match in Montreal with double faults and sloppiness from the baseline, but Nadal's psychological force on key points is as strong as any athlete's in any sport.
Nadal is not the shotmaking talent that Federer is, but he has a "consistency bone" in him that gets him to thrive on key points when everyone tends to get tense.
ClayDeath
Multiple Major Winner
the objective is to win.
he is required to kill so he kills. what else is there?
he has been hampered with knee issues and some of his speed and his movement has taken a little hit. he is also not young anymore.
the fact that he can beat you with a limited game alone is miraculous.
his shots are more than just spectacular. and you are seeing him on his worst surface.
this is what he can do when he is reasonably healthy. the guy is at about 65% capacity at the moment.
you don't want him at 80% capacity on surfaces outside clay. nobody would ever win match against him.
he has dominated the red cay for a decade. let me say that again: for a bloody decade. that is not easy to do.
he gives the world one hell of a show.
he gives them all hope on the battlefield.
and then he fights with all he has.
his topspin forehand is the greatest shot in the history of the sport. there has never been a forehand that spectacular.
ask nole, roger, berdych, and murray all about it and they will tell you just that in NO uncertain terms.
his movement on the red clay is spectacular.
his relentless will is spectacular.
his passing shots are sublime and spectacular when he is on.
he fights with his heart, his head, his will, and his topspin.
what more do you want?
he is required to kill so he kills. what else is there?
he has been hampered with knee issues and some of his speed and his movement has taken a little hit. he is also not young anymore.
the fact that he can beat you with a limited game alone is miraculous.
his shots are more than just spectacular. and you are seeing him on his worst surface.
this is what he can do when he is reasonably healthy. the guy is at about 65% capacity at the moment.
you don't want him at 80% capacity on surfaces outside clay. nobody would ever win match against him.
he has dominated the red cay for a decade. let me say that again: for a bloody decade. that is not easy to do.
he gives the world one hell of a show.
he gives them all hope on the battlefield.
and then he fights with all he has.
his topspin forehand is the greatest shot in the history of the sport. there has never been a forehand that spectacular.
ask nole, roger, berdych, and murray all about it and they will tell you just that in NO uncertain terms.
his movement on the red clay is spectacular.
his relentless will is spectacular.
his passing shots are sublime and spectacular when he is on.
he fights with his heart, his head, his will, and his topspin.
what more do you want?
brokenshoelace
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calitennis127 said:
After years of coming up with new ways to explain Nadal's success while undermining his game, and years of him proving you wrong, you resort to...weak competition. How original. If only Federer detractors had that idea when he was dominating...oh wait.
brokenshoelace
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imjimmy said:
Law of the averages doesn't exist in a sport where you and your opponent control the outcome of the match. You'd think law of the averages would have came more into play in the Federer-Roddick rivlarly to prevent such a lopsided H2H given that Roddick is clearly a better player than that particular series suggests.
However, your other point stands, and it's one that Kieran mentioned a while ago, regarding whether or not Nadal peaked soon. Let's be clear though, it IS better to win Canada and Cinci than losing them (duh, I know). I'd rather be worried that Nadal might have peaked to soon than be worried whether he'll find his form for the US Open because he's having disappointing results.
Obviously, there is no guarantees the momentum absolutely carries over to the US Open as far as his level of play goes (he's really been playing his best hard court tennis in years). Remember how bad he looked in the first week of the FO this year, despite storming through the clay season. It took him until the semis to basically play like we know he can. Even a week's rest might distrupt your rhythm and momentum (not suggesting that the rest he'll be getting is bad, god knows those knees need it). However, I hope he has a smooth first week in NY where, even if he doesn't play too well, he isn't struggling to find his game, because that's something Nadal has been guilty of in the first week of slams in recent years (I recall the 2011 AO, 2011 FO, 2012 AO, and 2013 FO as obvious examples, not to mention the two Wimbledon disasters). It's important that he continues to serve this well and take such an aggressive on court position, as I feel that has been the key to his summer success. Hopefully the knees are fine.
brokenshoelace
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Didi said:
I agree that his season is a huge success regardless of what happens in NY, but winning the US Open is infinitely more important that becoming world number 1 again. Yes, he has won the title already, but he's also become number 1 in the world already. Slams are where it's at. The feeling of satisfaction is different because it's something tangible: You have championship point, you win said point, you win the trophy. You don't wait for the rankings to come out on Monday to enjoy it. Not to mention, you go through a field of players, where you just best your opponents on court, which is what competition, and tennis, is all about. At this point in his career, Nadal just needs to be adding to his Grand Slam tally. Everything else is the bonus, and not the othe way around IMO.
brokenshoelace
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brokenshoelace
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I call bullshit on Rafa's theory of preferring to win more smaller tournaments. Yeah, that's why every time someone asks him about the most special victories of his career, he ONLY refers to Grand Slam matches. I think he was just being needlessly philosophical.
ClayDeath
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Broken_Shoelace said:
it was never about "shotmaking".
it has always been about winning.
nadal`s shots in full flight are spectacular enough.
you don't want this guy to be too much better. nobody would ever win a match against him.
Moxie
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Broken_Shoelace said:
IMO, he was actually just being polite. He was referring backwards to 3 tournaments he had just won, not projecting about what he'd prefer in the future, which is very different, though it is similar to when Rafa says things like 'I'm only thinking of the next round,' or 'I'm only thinking of the next tournament.' He wasn't going to diss tournaments like Rome, Madrid and Barcelona, which have been very good to him. What I do believe is that he loves competition, and does love to play tournaments at all levels. Which is why, incidentally, I think you're right Broken, about him preferring the USO to the #1, if it were a choice.
