Obsessed Winners, Are They Accepted in Tennis Culture?

[brokenshoelace]

Sure, the Connors-Jmac era of constant outbursts had its moments, but the guys today, they are not fooling anyone with all the niceties...They might even genuinely like each other, but once it is business time, they want to tear each other's hearts out, which is the way it should be.

I agree with this, but let me clarify: It's not about hate, or exchanging words on court. It's not about arguing with the umpire. It's about a certain attitude. An attitude that not every can or even should have, but it's about an attitude that is seemingly frowned upon in tennis.

If a player does ANYTHING outside of what is expected as far as tennis protocol goes, people go insane. Why?

I think maybe what you are not seeing in your desire for a more animated approach, is that there is ZERO energy out there to spare. What Nadal does requires every damn molecule of his concentration, strength, speed, stamina, and concentration. You are dreaming if there is anything left over to entertain you.

I never asked for an animated approach. Do you have a learning/reading problem? I'm seriously asking.

 

[Postpre]

I like 49ers coach, Jim Harbaugh, because he is maniacally competitive.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Sure, the Connors-Jmac era of constant outbursts had its moments, but the guys today, they are not fooling anyone with all the niceties...They might even genuinely like each other, but once it is business time, they want to tear each other's hearts out, which is the way it should be.

I agree with this, but let me clarify: It's not about hate, or exchanging words on court. It's not about arguing with the umpire. It's about a certain attitude. An attitude that not every can or even should have, but it's about an attitude that is seemingly frowned upon in tennis.

If a player does ANYTHING outside of what is expected as far as tennis protocol goes, people go insane. Why?

I am getting your point BS. I don't have an answer accept maybe it is the zeitgeist, sign of the times? The overall political correctness and the desire to frown upon everything that might be perceived as offensive? I mean think about it, Jordan , today, would be teed up and tossed out in 5 minutes, with all the trash talk...Today, a player gets teed up just looking at the ref the wrong way! Ask Duncan...The dress codes in NBA, or the ban on headphones...Times have changed man. Personality is frowned upon. It is really sad, but it is what is.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

When I look into the eyes of the elite 7 or 8 players of today, I see NOTHING but the INSANE drive and will to win at all costs. It is BEYOND insane. Not sure where you are coming from.

Most of you are missing the point. It's not just about drive to win. OF COURSE top tennis players have an immense drive to win.

It's about the sort of drive and determination that makes you go an extra mile. As I said, and Murat mentioned that briefly, it's not about being dirty or cheating. But it's about doing EVERYTHING (legal) to gain an edge.

I don't see that in 7 or 8 elite players, nor am I demanding to see it, and that's the point nobody's getting. What I'm saying is, why is it that when we actually DO see it, it is frowned upon?

Why was Michael Jordan praised for every little thing he did (deservedly so), but say, Rafael Nadal is criticized for making an opponent wait at the net or taking too long in between points?

Let me be clear: I think the umpire SHOULD give him time violations. I also, as a viewer, prefer NOT to wait 30 seconds in between every point. But as a player whose sole purpose is to win, if I can get away with it, and it actually does help me, I WOULD DO IT EACH AND EVERY TIME.

That's the "obsessed winner" mentality.

Again, let me be clear: this post is not meant to diminish players who don't adopt this attitude. You can't have 30 Michael Jordans, otherwise Jordan wouldn't have been so special. I'm just asking why does the tennis culture frown upon those who adopt this attitude?

What I'm talking about is beyond the mere drive to win...it's about going that extra mile.

Who says the tennis world frowns upon a win at all costs attitude?

You think too much. I really don't know what you expect from these guys. I think you will
find something to complain about no matter what. Backwards baseball caps annoy the hell out of me, but that is just too bad for me.

Tennis, beyond ANY other sport requires discipline. As someone who worked in the locker room at Flushing Meadows, i can tell you that the entire day revolves around these guys performing at their very best, and that includes meal planning, pre workout activation, warm up, match or practice, and recovery. They don't have ANY WHERE NEAR the downtime of of NBA, MLB, or NFL players.

Having watched a thousand ATP level matches and practice sessions in person I can tell you the players have one purpose, and one purpose only, and that is to win.

Jesus, you still think I'm saying these players don't have the desire to win. It's tough to argue with you because you have a ceiling under which you have to operate, so I have to spoon feed you every argument for you to comprehend what I mean, only for you to fail to understand the point regardless.

Because of that, I'll just ignore everything you write.

Enjoy the Open mate. Don't be disappointed if there is not a knife fight on court.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Sure, the Connors-Jmac era of constant outbursts had its moments, but the guys today, they are not fooling anyone with all the niceties...They might even genuinely like each other, but once it is business time, they want to tear each other's hearts out, which is the way it should be.

I agree with this, but let me clarify: It's not about hate, or exchanging words on court. It's not about arguing with the umpire. It's about a certain attitude. An attitude that not every can or even should have, but it's about an attitude that is seemingly frowned upon in tennis.

If a player does ANYTHING outside of what is expected as far as tennis protocol goes, people go insane. Why?

I am getting your point BS. I don't have an answer accept maybe it is the zeitgeist, sign of the times? The overall political correctness and the desire to frown upon everything that might be perceived as offensive? I mean think about it, Jordan , today, would be teed up and tossed out in 5 minutes, with all the trash talk...Today, a player gets teed up just looking at the ref the wrong way! Ask Duncan...The dress codes in NBA, or the ban on headphones...Times have changed man. Personality is frowned upon. It is really sad, but it is what is.

Yeah, that's part of what I'm getting at. Which is what I meant by saying we need to be more open minded. I don't want what I'm saying to be misinterpreted though. I'm not saying I want colorfulness for the sake of colorfulness, or antics for the sake of antics. Pete Sampras had neither (sorry Kieran), but you could see that he wasn't out there to make friends. Winning was the only thing that mattered.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Enjoy the Open mate. Don't be disappointed if there is not a knife fight on court.

The fact that this is the point that you drew out of this thread makes me feel bad for you. I carefully spelled out the Michael Jordan analogy so that people understand what I'm getting at. I guess I should have dumbed it down further.

 

[Moxie]

Soccer has always been my favorite sport. Tennis has come second. Yet, growing up, my favorite athlete was Michael Jordan, even today. If you go to Youtube and hear former teammates, opponents and various Basketball greats talk about him, especially those who knew him best, one theme constantly pops up: the will to win.

Yeah, they'll bring up his athleticism, great defense, hard work, improvement, his mid range jumper, his improved post game, his dunking, etc... but more than anything, they talk about him being an obsessed winner. That's part of the reason why he is arguably the greatest player in the clutch, in any sport, period. His obsession in winning made him the hardest working, the hungriest, the best... It allowed him to maximize his talent.

And yet, as inspiring as all of this sounds, there is a "darker" side to Jordan. Despite being one of the most popular athletes in history, Jordan's qualities (beyond Basketball) weren't the kind of qualities we discuss in tennis players (ie: humble, funny, etc...). Most were in awe of him, and everyone had huge respect for his game, but Michael "the person" is not something you hear about often. There are stories of him berating teammates when they couldn't perform, even to the point of bullying. He was at times an a$$hole to opponents, and a trash talking machine. All you have to do is listen to his 2009 hall of fame speech. It's actually a pretty telling trip down the mind of the one of the greatest sportsmen ever.

If you have time to kill, watch these two videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ZaudNTSeQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLzBMGXfK4c

Magic Johnson talks about how during the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona, he, Jordan, Pippen and Barkley would stay up till 5 in the morning playing cards because Jordan refused to leave the table until he won. In fact, that's part of the reason Jordan wanted to play Baseball. His obsession with winning led him to continuously set new challenges for himself, and he felt, at the time (1994) that he had nothing left to prove in Basketball.

If you listen to Jordan rivals like Reggie Miller talk about him, they all talk (in admiration) of his "win at all costs" attitude. That is not to be confused with shady or dirty tactics (that's Isiah Tomas' job), but anything that gave him an edge, Jordan did it. He was accused of "conning" the likes of Barkley, Ewing and Oakley, befriending them, softening them up, and then destroying them on the Bastkeball court...

Now, this isn't a history lesson about Michael Jordan. This is about Michael Jordan's mentality, and what it represented. A mentality that can transcend into every sport. In fact, most greats share it, to varying degrees. Ali, Tiger Woods, Jose Mourinho and others always shared some of these traits.

Which led me to thinking about tennis, and especially, today's game. By comparison, tennis today is "softer" than say, the NBA in the 80's/90's, Boxing, Soccer, and even tennis itself in the 80's. Of course, there is a difference in culture between different sports and that's fine. However, it seems to me that many of the above-mentioned traits, which in many ways, are considered qualities in other sports, would be frowned up in today's game. Players should be humble, gracious, give credit to the opponent all the time, play exactly by the book, act and talk a certain way... and to this I ask, why?

Why can't they be obsessed with winning, first and foremost? Why can't they ONLY be obsessed with winning? When Jordan did some of the things that gave him an edge, or Shaq and Barkley gave small elbows in the paint to establish their presence and intimidate opponents, they were praised for it. It was part of the game.

This isn't the case in tennis. Nadal is often criticized (and perhaps rightly so) for taking too much time between points, making players wait at the net...etc. Yet, someone like Jordan would probably praise him for doing little things that give him an edge.

I look at many top tennis players today, and I don't see this "winning is everything" attitude. There is an obvious example: Rafael Nadal. I saw videos of him playing video games, and you can see how competitive he is, even when doing something as minor. Recently, Novak has become somewhat similar, albeit more laid back. Hewitt in his day, was certainly another example. Federer is interesting, because you don't win as much as he did without having this mentality, even if he doesn't appear to be as intense as someone like Nadal or Djokovic. Ditto for Pete. And yet, ALL these players are criticized if they show signs of being sore losers, making arrogant comments, etc... I personally don't get it. The game could use a bit of spice. I want sore losers (not to be confused with excuse makers). I want players who would do anything that gives them an edge (not to be confused with downright illegal actions). I want players to be less friendly, and I want them to be able to speak up their minds without the sportsmanship police jumping on them.

I'm not saying tennis needs to turn into the 90's NBA. Different sports, different cultures, different times, etc... But I do think it's becoming a bit too idealistic, and it shows with the mentality of some of the players, and the fans too.

I disagree with your basic premise, if it is that the top tennis players are not as intense as Michael Jordan, for example. I can't really speak to Murray and Djokovic, but I think you know enough about Nadal to know that he doesn't even play golf for fun. Every competitive game is live-or-die for him, and I'm pretty sure that Federer is the same, at least in terms of tennis. I think you got (uncharacteristically) derailed by Jordan's cut-throat mentality, (remember, he wasn't always thought of that way.) I would say that Nadal, Federer, and Djokovic, at least, basically spare no kindness for their rivals. They can say nice things, but would rip each other's hearts out, given the opportunity. And they have done. I don't think it matters what they say in the pressers.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Soccer has always been my favorite sport. Tennis has come second. Yet, growing up, my favorite athlete was Michael Jordan, even today. If you go to Youtube and hear former teammates, opponents and various Basketball greats talk about him, especially those who knew him best, one theme constantly pops up: the will to win.

Yeah, they'll bring up his athleticism, great defense, hard work, improvement, his mid range jumper, his improved post game, his dunking, etc... but more than anything, they talk about him being an obsessed winner. That's part of the reason why he is arguably the greatest player in the clutch, in any sport, period. His obsession in winning made him the hardest working, the hungriest, the best... It allowed him to maximize his talent.

And yet, as inspiring as all of this sounds, there is a "darker" side to Jordan. Despite being one of the most popular athletes in history, Jordan's qualities (beyond Basketball) weren't the kind of qualities we discuss in tennis players (ie: humble, funny, etc...). Most were in awe of him, and everyone had huge respect for his game, but Michael "the person" is not something you hear about often. There are stories of him berating teammates when they couldn't perform, even to the point of bullying. He was at times an a$$hole to opponents, and a trash talking machine. All you have to do is listen to his 2009 hall of fame speech. It's actually a pretty telling trip down the mind of the one of the greatest sportsmen ever.

If you have time to kill, watch these two videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ZaudNTSeQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLzBMGXfK4c

Magic Johnson talks about how during the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona, he, Jordan, Pippen and Barkley would stay up till 5 in the morning playing cards because Jordan refused to leave the table until he won. In fact, that's part of the reason Jordan wanted to play Baseball. His obsession with winning led him to continuously set new challenges for himself, and he felt, at the time (1994) that he had nothing left to prove in Basketball.

If you listen to Jordan rivals like Reggie Miller talk about him, they all talk (in admiration) of his "win at all costs" attitude. That is not to be confused with shady or dirty tactics (that's Isiah Tomas' job), but anything that gave him an edge, Jordan did it. He was accused of "conning" the likes of Barkley, Ewing and Oakley, befriending them, softening them up, and then destroying them on the Bastkeball court...

Now, this isn't a history lesson about Michael Jordan. This is about Michael Jordan's mentality, and what it represented. A mentality that can transcend into every sport. In fact, most greats share it, to varying degrees. Ali, Tiger Woods, Jose Mourinho and others always shared some of these traits.

Which led me to thinking about tennis, and especially, today's game. By comparison, tennis today is "softer" than say, the NBA in the 80's/90's, Boxing, Soccer, and even tennis itself in the 80's. Of course, there is a difference in culture between different sports and that's fine. However, it seems to me that many of the above-mentioned traits, which in many ways, are considered qualities in other sports, would be frowned up in today's game. Players should be humble, gracious, give credit to the opponent all the time, play exactly by the book, act and talk a certain way... and to this I ask, why?

Why can't they be obsessed with winning, first and foremost? Why can't they ONLY be obsessed with winning? When Jordan did some of the things that gave him an edge, or Shaq and Barkley gave small elbows in the paint to establish their presence and intimidate opponents, they were praised for it. It was part of the game.

This isn't the case in tennis. Nadal is often criticized (and perhaps rightly so) for taking too much time between points, making players wait at the net...etc. Yet, someone like Jordan would probably praise him for doing little things that give him an edge.

I look at many top tennis players today, and I don't see this "winning is everything" attitude. There is an obvious example: Rafael Nadal. I saw videos of him playing video games, and you can see how competitive he is, even when doing something as minor. Recently, Novak has become somewhat similar, albeit more laid back. Hewitt in his day, was certainly another example. Federer is interesting, because you don't win as much as he did without having this mentality, even if he doesn't appear to be as intense as someone like Nadal or Djokovic. Ditto for Pete. And yet, ALL these players are criticized if they show signs of being sore losers, making arrogant comments, etc... I personally don't get it. The game could use a bit of spice. I want sore losers (not to be confused with excuse makers). I want players who would do anything that gives them an edge (not to be confused with downright illegal actions). I want players to be less friendly, and I want them to be able to speak up their minds without the sportsmanship police jumping on them.

I'm not saying tennis needs to turn into the 90's NBA. Different sports, different cultures, different times, etc... But I do think it's becoming a bit too idealistic, and it shows with the mentality of some of the players, and the fans too.

I disagree with your basic premise, if it is that the top tennis players are not as intense as Michael Jordan, for example. I can't really speak to Murray and Djokovic, but I think you know enough about Nadal to know that he doesn't even play golf for fun. Every competitive game is live-or-die for him, and I'm pretty sure that Federer is the same, at least in terms of tennis. I think you got (uncharacteristically) derailed by Jordan's cut-throat mentality, (remember, he wasn't always thought of that way.) I would say that Nadal, Federer, and Djokovic, at least, basically spare no kindness for their rivals. They can say nice things, but would rip each other's hearts out, given the opportunity. And they have done. I don't think it matters what they say in the pressers.

I agree completely, and this why I feel the OP was utterly pointless.

 

[DarthFed]

Great topic. I don't think the public has a problem with obsessed winners. Never has an athlete been so glorified as Michael Jordan and the guy is not exactly a decent dude. God knows how many kids he has from f--king around on his ex wife, he is an absolute egomaniac, degenerate gambler, (which many think was the "real reason" behind the first retirement) cut throat teammate, etc. But all of the "madness" contributed to the athlete he was and in my lifetime Jordan is far and away the greatest athlete I've ever seen.

Tennis is a different culture but there are still some insanely obsessed winners. Rafa doesn't fool anyone with that fake humility. You don't push yourself to the extremes he does and play the petty games he does if he wasn't ridiculously competitive. On the women's side I feel Serena can be the same way, she is an extremely sore loser and I don't mind it for a second. That is one of the edges she has on someone like Azarenka who takes losing too well, IMO.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I agree completely, and this why I feel the OP was utterly pointless.

Moxie, in my OP, I specifically single out Nadal, Djokovic and Federer as people who ARE obsessed winners...and yet you're essentially saying "I disagree with you because Nadal, Djokovic and Federer are obsessed winners." You bring up Nadal playing golf because he is competitive, when in my OP I specifically mention how competitive he is while playing video games... You're essentially rehashing the same point..

Then a poster above ironically calls the OP pointless without realizing that you just agreed with the OP, without really knowing it.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Since for some reason, nobody seems to have read this, I'll quote myself:

"I look at many top tennis players today, and I don't see this "winning is everything" attitude. There is an obvious example: Rafael Nadal. I saw videos of him playing video games, and you can see how competitive he is, even when doing something as minor. Recently, Novak has become somewhat similar, albeit more laid back. Hewitt in his day, was certainly another example. Federer is interesting, because you don't win as much as he did without having this mentality, even if he doesn't appear to be as intense as someone like Nadal or Djokovic. Ditto for Pete. And yet, ALL these players are criticized if they show signs of being sore losers, making arrogant comments, etc... I personally don't get it. The game could use a bit of spice. I want sore losers (not to be confused with excuse makers). I want players who would do anything that gives them an edge (not to be confused with downright illegal actions). I want players to be less friendly, and I want them to be able to speak up their minds without the sportsmanship police jumping on them."

Is my English awful or did everyone collectively fail to read this?

 

[brokenshoelace]

Great topic. I don't think the public has a problem with obsessed winners. Never has an athlete been so glorified as Michael Jordan and the guy is not exactly a decent dude. God knows how many kids he has from f--king around on his ex wife, he is an absolute egomaniac, degenerate gambler, (which many think was the "real reason" behind the first retirement) cut throat teammate, etc. But all of the "madness" contributed to the athlete he was and in my lifetime Jordan is far and away the greatest athlete I've ever seen.

Tennis is a different culture but there are still some insanely obsessed winners. Rafa doesn't fool anyone with that fake humility. You don't push yourself to the extremes he does and play the petty games he does if he wasn't ridiculously competitive. On the women's side I feel Serena can be the same way, she is an extremely sore loser and I don't mind it for a second. That is one of the edges she has on someone like Azarenka who takes losing too well, IMO.

There you go. Finally someone who actually understands what I'm talking about. I specifically brought up the Jordan analogy in order to be extremely specific about what I'm referring to.

Serena is a great example by the way.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I agree completely, and this why I feel the OP was utterly pointless.

Judging by your posts, your presence on these boards is pointless.

"I look at many top tennis players today, and I don't see this "winning is everything" attitude. There is an obvious example: Rafael Nadal. I saw videos of him playing video games, and you can see how competitive he is, even when doing something as minor. Recently, Novak has become somewhat similar, albeit more laid back. Hewitt in his day, was certainly another example. Federer is interesting, because you don't win as much as he did without having this mentality, even if he doesn't appear to be as intense as someone like Nadal or Djokovic. Ditto for Pete. And yet, ALL these players are criticized if they show signs of being sore losers, making arrogant comments, etc... I personally don't get it. The game could use a bit of spice. I want sore losers (not to be confused with excuse makers). I want players who would do anything that gives them an edge (not to be confused with downright illegal actions). I want players to be less friendly, and I want them to be able to speak up their minds without the sportsmanship police jumping on them. "

Either learn how to read or do me a favor and stay the hell out of my thread. Thanks.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

I agree completely, and this why I feel the OP was utterly pointless.

Judging by your posts, your presence on these boards is pointless.

"I look at many top tennis players today, and I don't see this "winning is everything" attitude. There is an obvious example: Rafael Nadal. I saw videos of him playing video games, and you can see how competitive he is, even when doing something as minor. Recently, Novak has become somewhat similar, albeit more laid back. Hewitt in his day, was certainly another example. Federer is interesting, because you don't win as much as he did without having this mentality, even if he doesn't appear to be as intense as someone like Nadal or Djokovic. Ditto for Pete. And yet, ALL these players are criticized if they show signs of being sore losers, making arrogant comments, etc... I personally don't get it. The game could use a bit of spice. I want sore losers (not to be confused with excuse makers). I want players who would do anything that gives them an edge (not to be confused with downright illegal actions). I want players to be less friendly, and I want them to be able to speak up their minds without the sportsmanship police jumping on them. "

Either learn how to read or do me a favor and stay the hell out of my thread. Thanks.

Try not being so long winded.

If you expect the ATP to be as crass as the NBA you will be disappointed.

Looks like the game of tennis is boring to you without thugs.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I agree completely, and this why I feel the OP was utterly pointless.

Judging by your posts, your presence on these boards is pointless.

"I look at many top tennis players today, and I don't see this "winning is everything" attitude. There is an obvious example: Rafael Nadal. I saw videos of him playing video games, and you can see how competitive he is, even when doing something as minor. Recently, Novak has become somewhat similar, albeit more laid back. Hewitt in his day, was certainly another example. Federer is interesting, because you don't win as much as he did without having this mentality, even if he doesn't appear to be as intense as someone like Nadal or Djokovic. Ditto for Pete. And yet, ALL these players are criticized if they show signs of being sore losers, making arrogant comments, etc... I personally don't get it. The game could use a bit of spice. I want sore losers (not to be confused with excuse makers). I want players who would do anything that gives them an edge (not to be confused with downright illegal actions). I want players to be less friendly, and I want them to be able to speak up their minds without the sportsmanship police jumping on them. "

Either learn how to read or do me a favor and stay the hell out of my thread. Thanks.

Try not being so long winded.

If you expect the ATP to be as crass as the NBA you will be disappointed.

Looks like the game of tennis is boring to you without thugs.

Except I never said tennis players should act like NBA players. It's not about action, it's about attitude. I like Nadal's "winning at all costs" attitude, do you see him acting like a thug? No.

So once again, either stop putting words in my mouth, learn how to read, or don't derail threads with your constant meaningless posts that have nothing to do with the point at hand. I know you just embarrassed yourself by failing to read basic English but don't do what you did in the other thread and just backtrack for the sake of backtracking. It's OK, you failed to see the point. No big deal. Now say something useful or stay quiet. Thanks.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

I agree completely, and this why I feel the OP was utterly pointless.

Judging by your posts, your presence on these boards is pointless.

"I look at many top tennis players today, and I don't see this "winning is everything" attitude. There is an obvious example: Rafael Nadal. I saw videos of him playing video games, and you can see how competitive he is, even when doing something as minor. Recently, Novak has become somewhat similar, albeit more laid back. Hewitt in his day, was certainly another example. Federer is interesting, because you don't win as much as he did without having this mentality, even if he doesn't appear to be as intense as someone like Nadal or Djokovic. Ditto for Pete. And yet, ALL these players are criticized if they show signs of being sore losers, making arrogant comments, etc... I personally don't get it. The game could use a bit of spice. I want sore losers (not to be confused with excuse makers). I want players who would do anything that gives them an edge (not to be confused with downright illegal actions). I want players to be less friendly, and I want them to be able to speak up their minds without the sportsmanship police jumping on them. "

Either learn how to read or do me a favor and stay the hell out of my thread. Thanks.

Try not being so long winded.

If you expect the ATP to be as crass as the NBA you will be disappointed.

Looks like the game of tennis is boring to you without thugs.

Except I never said tennis players should act like NBA players. It's not about action, it's about attitude. I like Nadal's "winning at all costs" attitude, do you see him acting like a thug? No.

So once again, either stop putting words in my mouth, learn how to read, or don't derail threads with your constant meaningless posts that have nothing to do with the point at hand. I know you just embarrassed yourself by failing to read basic English but don't do what you did in the other thread and just backtrack for the sake of backtracking. It's OK, you failed to see the point. No big deal. No say something useful or stay quiet. Thanks.

Tennis as an international professional sport is enjoying a 35 year high in popularity with the current top 4, who are universally seen as bringing the game to heights never dreamed of. It is doing quite well with the need for "spice". At the next tournament you play try some trash talking let us know how it goes.


Over and out.:clap
Over and out.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I agree completely, and this why I feel the OP was utterly pointless.

Judging by your posts, your presence on these boards is pointless.

"I look at many top tennis players today, and I don't see this "winning is everything" attitude. There is an obvious example: Rafael Nadal. I saw videos of him playing video games, and you can see how competitive he is, even when doing something as minor. Recently, Novak has become somewhat similar, albeit more laid back. Hewitt in his day, was certainly another example. Federer is interesting, because you don't win as much as he did without having this mentality, even if he doesn't appear to be as intense as someone like Nadal or Djokovic. Ditto for Pete. And yet, ALL these players are criticized if they show signs of being sore losers, making arrogant comments, etc... I personally don't get it. The game could use a bit of spice. I want sore losers (not to be confused with excuse makers). I want players who would do anything that gives them an edge (not to be confused with downright illegal actions). I want players to be less friendly, and I want them to be able to speak up their minds without the sportsmanship police jumping on them. "

Either learn how to read or do me a favor and stay the hell out of my thread. Thanks.

Try not being so long winded.

If you expect the ATP to be as crass as the NBA you will be disappointed.

Looks like the game of tennis is boring to you without thugs.

Except I never said tennis players should act like NBA players. It's not about action, it's about attitude. I like Nadal's "winning at all costs" attitude, do you see him acting like a thug? No.

So once again, either stop putting words in my mouth, learn how to read, or don't derail threads with your constant meaningless posts that have nothing to do with the point at hand. I know you just embarrassed yourself by failing to read basic English but don't do what you did in the other thread and just backtrack for the sake of backtracking. It's OK, you failed to see the point. No big deal. No say something useful or stay quiet. Thanks.

Tennis as an international professional sport is enjoying a 35 year high in popularity with the current top 4, who are universally seen as bringing the game to heights never dreamed of. It is doing quite well with the need for "spice". At your next tournament try some trash talking let us know how it goes.


Over and out.:clap
Over and out.

This is my second argument with you in as many threads, and for the second time in as many threads, you make a point, I explain that you completely missed mine, yet you still rehash your same point through a different obtuse way.

Please show me where I said players should talk trash, or when I said it's about popularity. It's about an A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E.

Once again: I AM PRAISING NADAL'S ATTITUDE, as well as that of others. Do you see Nadal trash talking? So how is it that I am demanding trash talking? Jesus Christ.

But yes, please be over and out, and make way for actual insightful conversation.

 

[Moxie]

I agree completely, and this why I feel the OP was utterly pointless.

Moxie, in my OP, I specifically single out Nadal, Djokovic and Federer as people who ARE obsessed winners...and yet you're essentially "I disagree with you because Nadal, Djokovic and Federer are obsessed winners"? You bring up Nadal playing golf because he is competitive, when in my OP I specifically mention how competitive he is while playing video games... You're essentially rehashing the same point..

To make it worse, a poster above ironically calls the OP pointless without realizing that you just agreed with the OP, without really knowing it.

My god the irony...

Then I would say you didn't make your point as coherently as you think. And stop swooning over the "irony." (Drama Queen.) See below, and my bolded:

"I look at many top tennis players today, and I don't see this "winning is everything" attitude. There is an obvious example: Rafael Nadal. I saw videos of him playing video games, and you can see how competitive he is, even when doing something as minor. Recently, Novak has become somewhat similar, albeit more laid back. Hewitt in his day, was certainly another example. Federer is interesting, because you don't win as much as he did without having this mentality, even if he doesn't appear to be as intense as someone like Nadal or Djokovic. Ditto for Pete. And yet, ALL these players are criticized if they show signs of being sore losers, making arrogant comments, etc... I personally don't get it. The game could use a bit of spice. I want sore losers (not to be confused with excuse makers). I want players who would do anything that gives them an edge (not to be confused with downright illegal actions). I want players to be less friendly, and I want them to be able to speak up their minds without the sportsmanship police jumping on them.

I'm not saying tennis needs to turn into the 90's NBA. Different sports, different cultures, different times, etc... But I do think it's becoming a bit too idealistic, and it shows with the mentality of some of the players, and the fans too."


You may think you were making the argument that they're intense, but it was far from clear. Note my bolded. It was rather hard to find your argument in all that. Don't blame us if we missed it.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I agree completely, and this why I feel the OP was utterly pointless.

Moxie, in my OP, I specifically single out Nadal, Djokovic and Federer as people who ARE obsessed winners...and yet you're essentially "I disagree with you because Nadal, Djokovic and Federer are obsessed winners"? You bring up Nadal playing golf because he is competitive, when in my OP I specifically mention how competitive he is while playing video games... You're essentially rehashing the same point..

To make it worse, a poster above ironically calls the OP pointless without realizing that you just agreed with the OP, without really knowing it.

My god the irony...

Then I would say you didn't make your point as coherently as you think. And stop swooning over the "irony." (Drama Queen.) See below, and my bolded:

"I look at many top tennis players today, and I don't see this "winning is everything" attitude. There is an obvious example: Rafael Nadal. I saw videos of him playing video games, and you can see how competitive he is, even when doing something as minor. Recently, Novak has become somewhat similar, albeit more laid back. Hewitt in his day, was certainly another example. Federer is interesting, because you don't win as much as he did without having this mentality, even if he doesn't appear to be as intense as someone like Nadal or Djokovic. Ditto for Pete. And yet, ALL these players are criticized if they show signs of being sore losers, making arrogant comments, etc... I personally don't get it. The game could use a bit of spice. I want sore losers (not to be confused with excuse makers). I want players who would do anything that gives them an edge (not to be confused with downright illegal actions). I want players to be less friendly, and I want them to be able to speak up their minds without the sportsmanship police jumping on them.

I'm not saying tennis needs to turn into the 90's NBA. Different sports, different cultures, different times, etc... But I do think it's becoming a bit too idealistic, and it shows with the mentality of some of the players, and the fans too."


You may think you were making the argument that they're intense, but it was far from clear. Note my bolded. It was rather hard to find your argument in all that. Don't blame us if we missed it.

The irony part was directed at Borg (the poster, not the player). As far as you not getting my point, Murat, Darth and Kieran did, so I'm pretty sure it was clear to some extent. Since I am not providing a lecture but a mere internet post, I tend to rely on a reader's own ability to A) read B) comprehend and C) Deduce. In other words, even if A) and B) are difficult due to potential vagueness of what I wrote, then C) shouldn't be difficult. No man in his right mind would criticize Nadal for not having a "win at all costs attitude," so when I bring him up, I naturally assume that the reader would know that I am in fact PRAISING him for his attitude, because that's a no-brainer. I am even more prompted to make said assumption since I am known to be a huge Nadal fan, so it's not exactly a monumental task to know what I'm getting at. Right after the bolded part in the post above, I cited the notable exceptions, being Nadal, Djokovic and Federer, and referred to Hewitt in his prime and Sampras. The fact that this somehow was still not clear enough for you is not on me. Sorry.

Don't blame me for your over sensitivity regarding all things Nadal. I guess I should have all-capped my praise for him in order not to be misconstrued.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Judging by your posts, your presence on these boards is pointless.

"I look at many top tennis players today, and I don't see this "winning is everything" attitude. There is an obvious example: Rafael Nadal. I saw videos of him playing video games, and you can see how competitive he is, even when doing something as minor. Recently, Novak has become somewhat similar, albeit more laid back. Hewitt in his day, was certainly another example. Federer is interesting, because you don't win as much as he did without having this mentality, even if he doesn't appear to be as intense as someone like Nadal or Djokovic. Ditto for Pete. And yet, ALL these players are criticized if they show signs of being sore losers, making arrogant comments, etc... I personally don't get it. The game could use a bit of spice. I want sore losers (not to be confused with excuse makers). I want players who would do anything that gives them an edge (not to be confused with downright illegal actions). I want players to be less friendly, and I want them to be able to speak up their minds without the sportsmanship police jumping on them. "

Either learn how to read or do me a favor and stay the hell out of my thread. Thanks.

Try not being so long winded.

If you expect the ATP to be as crass as the NBA you will be disappointed.

Looks like the game of tennis is boring to you without thugs.

Except I never said tennis players should act like NBA players. It's not about action, it's about attitude. I like Nadal's "winning at all costs" attitude, do you see him acting like a thug? No.

So once again, either stop putting words in my mouth, learn how to read, or don't derail threads with your constant meaningless posts that have nothing to do with the point at hand. I know you just embarrassed yourself by failing to read basic English but don't do what you did in the other thread and just backtrack for the sake of backtracking. It's OK, you failed to see the point. No big deal. No say something useful or stay quiet. Thanks.

Tennis as an international professional sport is enjoying a 35 year high in popularity with the current top 4, who are universally seen as bringing the game to heights never dreamed of. It is doing quite well with the need for "spice". At your next tournament try some trash talking let us know how it goes.


Over and out.:clap
Over and out.

This is my second argument with you in as many threads, and for the second time in as many threads, you make a point, I explain that you completely missed mine, yet you still rehash your same point through a different obtuse way.

Please show me where I said players should talk trash, or when I said it's about popularity. It's about an A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E.

Once again: I AM PRAISING NADAL'S ATTITUDE, as well as that of others. Do you see Nadal trash talking? So how is it that I am demanding trash talking? Jesus Christ.

But yes, please be over and out, and make way for actual insightful conversation.

Listen, stop the acrobatic act.

When you say you want players to be "less friendly and speak their minds" and not to worry about the "sportsmanship police" you ARE talking about trash talk and trashy behavior.
Stop the back tracking, the parsing and nuanced sub meanings and the little dance.

Your points are moving targets. You must be a lawyer because the point for you is the dance, not to make any actual sense. Drama Queen indeed. Perpetual misunderstood forum victim.