Obsessed Winners, Are They Accepted in Tennis Culture?

[brokenshoelace]

Soccer has always been my favorite sport. Tennis has come second. Yet, growing up, my favorite athlete was Michael Jordan, even today. If you go to Youtube and hear former teammates, opponents and various Basketball greats talk about him, especially those who knew him best, one theme constantly pops up: the will to win.

Yeah, they'll bring up his athleticism, great defense, hard work, improvement, his mid range jumper, his improved post game, his dunking, etc... but more than anything, they talk about him being an obsessed winner. That's part of the reason why he is arguably the greatest player in the clutch, in any sport, period. His obsession in winning made him the hardest working, the hungriest, the best... It allowed him to maximize his talent.

And yet, as inspiring as all of this sounds, there is a "darker" side to Jordan. Despite being one of the most popular athletes in history, Jordan's qualities (beyond Basketball) weren't the kind of qualities we discuss in tennis players (ie: humble, funny, etc...). Most were in awe of him, and everyone had huge respect for his game, but Michael "the person" is not something you hear about often. There are stories of him berating teammates when they couldn't perform, even to the point of bullying. He was at times an a$$hole to opponents, and a trash talking machine. All you have to do is listen to his 2009 hall of fame speech. It's actually a pretty telling trip down the mind of the one of the greatest sportsmen ever.

If you have time to kill, watch these two videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ZaudNTSeQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLzBMGXfK4c

Magic Johnson talks about how during the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona, he, Jordan, Pippen and Barkley would stay up till 5 in the morning playing cards because Jordan refused to leave the table until he won. In fact, that's part of the reason Jordan wanted to play Baseball. His obsession with winning led him to continuously set new challenges for himself, and he felt, at the time (1994) that he had nothing left to prove in Basketball.

If you listen to Jordan rivals like Reggie Miller talk about him, they all talk (in admiration) of his "win at all costs" attitude. That is not to be confused with shady or dirty tactics (that's Isiah Tomas' job), but anything that gave him an edge, Jordan did it. He was accused of "conning" the likes of Barkley, Ewing and Oakley, befriending them, softening them up, and then destroying them on the Bastkeball court...

Now, this isn't a history lesson about Michael Jordan. This is about Michael Jordan's mentality, and what it represented. A mentality that can transcend into every sport. In fact, most greats share it, to varying degrees. Ali, Tiger Woods, Jose Mourinho and others always shared some of these traits.

Which led me to thinking about tennis, and especially, today's game. By comparison, tennis today is "softer" than say, the NBA in the 80's/90's, Boxing, Soccer, and even tennis itself in the 80's. Of course, there is a difference in culture between different sports and that's fine. However, it seems to me that many of the above-mentioned traits, which in many ways, are considered qualities in other sports, would be frowned up in today's game. Players should be humble, gracious, give credit to the opponent all the time, play exactly by the book, act and talk a certain way... and to this I ask, why?

Why can't they be obsessed with winning, first and foremost? Why can't they ONLY be obsessed with winning? When Jordan did some of the things that gave him an edge, or Shaq and Barkley gave small elbows in the paint to establish their presence and intimidate opponents, they were praised for it. It was part of the game.

This isn't the case in tennis. Nadal is often criticized (and perhaps rightly so) for taking too much time between points, making players wait at the net...etc. Yet, someone like Jordan would probably praise him for doing little things that give him an edge.

I look at many top tennis players today, and I don't see this "winning is everything" attitude. There is an obvious example: Rafael Nadal. I saw videos of him playing video games, and you can see how competitive he is, even when doing something as minor. Recently, Novak has become somewhat similar, albeit more laid back. Hewitt in his day, was certainly another example. Federer is interesting, because you don't win as much as he did without having this mentality, even if he doesn't appear to be as intense as someone like Nadal or Djokovic. Ditto for Pete. And yet, ALL these players are criticized if they show signs of being sore losers, making arrogant comments, etc... I personally don't get it. The game could use a bit of spice. I want sore losers (not to be confused with excuse makers). I want players who would do anything that gives them an edge (not to be confused with downright illegal actions). I want players to be less friendly, and I want them to be able to speak up their minds without the sportsmanship police jumping on them.

I'm not saying tennis needs to turn into the 90's NBA. Different sports, different cultures, different times, etc... But I do think it's becoming a bit too idealistic, and it shows with the mentality of some of the players, and the fans too.

 

[Kieran]

Great post! I'll return to it tomorrow because it's getting late here, but I broadly agree. The mentality of great champs has a dark side. They smile when they win but when they lose? None too pretty.

You mentioned how Jordan was accused of befriending opponents then beating them on court. I often think Rafa's "humility" and modesty when he talks about Roger is a bit like that: say the right things off court but on court, animalise him.

But it's a great topic and well worth another read...

 

[brokenshoelace]

Great post! I'll return to it tomorrow because it's getting late here, but I broadly agree. The mentality of great champs has a dark side. They smile when they win but when they lose? None too pretty.

You mentioned how Jordan was accused of befriending opponents then beating them on court. I often think Rafa's "humility" and modesty when he talks about Roger is a bit like that: say the right things off court but on court, animalise him.

But it's a great topic and well worth another read...

Yeah. To clarify, I'm not saying players SHOULDN'T be friends. Hell, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird got along very well (despite the immense rivalry and the latter being a trash talking machine). And I'm sure Rafa and Roger genuinely like each other, but yes, I do believe Nadal knows how to deal with his rivals in that regard. I'm not saying it's completely malicious in that it's a carefully orchestrated plan to deceive them, but we saw it with Djokovic, once he started beating Nadal, Rafa took his distance, which IMO is the right thing to do. They still get along well, and that's great, but they're not going to be best friends. In fact, Novak himself alluded to that when he said maybe when they're all retired he, Roger, Rafa and Murray can share drinks, but not now.

I remember Nadal asking Roger to play doubles with him at some point in 2006, and Roger refused. That too, was the right thing to do IMO. I think that was a lesson for Nadal and he deals with these things very well now. He gets along with almost everyone but when they step on court, it's extremely different.

Nadal's "humility" is interesting to me in that I do think he's genuinely humble about his own abilities (he's extremely frank about his limitations, what he's good at, what he's not good at, etc...), but has a lot of fake humbleness when it comes to opponents, who apparently, all require for him to be at his best to have a chance... He does say all the right things.

 

[Kieran]

Maybe the acceptance part of the OP, this goes all the way back to tennis country club roots? And despite the efforts of Mac and Connors, tennis players are still expected to behave with a certain class, so that when one of them appears to be highly ruthless, it's as if they committed a crime against the sports aesthetics, almost. Not saying this to be funny. But tennis winners are appreciated more when they're gentlemen...

 

[Denis]

Not sure if I can agree. I don't really like single-minded fanatacism and although it's pretty difficult to go without it at that level today I prefer the players that are able to reflect and relate things. Can't stand Hewitt, can't stand Federer and definitely can't stand Nadal when he makes players play on his rythm between points.

What is the difference between an excuse maker and a sore loser by the way? Don't they overlap to the point that they are similar?

 

[brokenshoelace]

Not sure if I can agree. I don't really like single-minded fanatacism and although it's pretty difficult to go without it at that level today I prefer the players that are able to reflect and relate things. Can't stand Hewitt, can't stand Federer and definitely can't stand Nadal when he makes players play on his rythm between points.

What is the difference between an excuse maker and a sore loser by the way? Don't they overlap to the point that they are similar?

Regarding the first paragraph, even though I don't share the view (as evidenced by the OP), I can understand. I never said that the "idealism" we see in tennis is wrong per se, I just think it's a bit excessive, and so vastly different than any other sport for whatever reason.

As far as the sore loser/excuse maker distinction: An excuse maker...well, makes excuses for his losses (ie citing an injury, etc...). A sore loser just doesn't gracefully accept a defeat and moves on. He's bummed out, it shows on his face, he focuses more on what he did wrong than what his opponent did right (which different than excuse making).

 

[Denis]

Regarding the first paragraph, even though I don't share the view (as evidenced by the OP), I can understand. I never said that the "idealism" we see in tennis is wrong per se, I just think it's a bit excessive, and so vastly different than any other sport for whatever reason.

True. It doesn't win a player any points after all. Just fans maybe. So I agree with you there. It's more a matter of taste, not something you can seriously judge a player on.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Soccer has always been my favorite sport. Tennis has come second. Yet, growing up, my favorite athlete was Michael Jordan, even today. If you go to Youtube and hear former teammates, opponents and various Basketball greats talk about him, especially those who knew him best, one theme constantly pops up: the will to win.

Yeah, they'll bring up his athleticism, great defense, hard work, improvement, his mid range jumper, his improved post game, his dunking, etc... but more than anything, they talk about him being an obsessed winner. That's part of the reason why he is arguably the greatest player in the clutch, in any sport, period. His obsession in winning made him the hardest working, the hungriest, the best... It allowed him to maximize his talent.

And yet, as inspiring as all of this sounds, there is a "darker" side to Jordan. Despite being one of the most popular athletes in history, Jordan's qualities (beyond Basketball) weren't the kind of qualities we discuss in tennis players (ie: humble, funny, etc...). Most were in awe of him, and everyone had huge respect for his game, but Michael "the person" is not something you hear about often. There are stories of him berating teammates when they couldn't perform, even to the point of bullying. He was at times an a$$hole to opponents, and a trash talking machine. All you have to do is listen to his 2009 hall of fame speech. It's actually a pretty telling trip down the mind of the one of the greatest sportsmen ever.

If you have time to kill, watch these two videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ZaudNTSeQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLzBMGXfK4c

Magic Johnson talks about how during the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona, he, Jordan, Pippen and Barkley would stay up till 5 in the morning playing cards because Jordan refused to leave the table until he won. In fact, that's part of the reason Jordan wanted to play Baseball. His obsession with winning led him to continuously set new challenges for himself, and he felt, at the time (1994) that he had nothing left to prove in Basketball.

If you listen to Jordan rivals like Reggie Miller talk about him, they all talk (in admiration) of his "win at all costs" attitude. That is not to be confused with shady or dirty tactics (that's Isiah Tomas' job), but anything that gave him an edge, Jordan did it. He was accused of "conning" the likes of Barkley, Ewing and Oakley, befriending them, softening them up, and then destroying them on the Bastkeball court...

Now, this isn't a history lesson about Michael Jordan. This is about Michael Jordan's mentality, and what it represented. A mentality that can transcend into every sport. In fact, most greats share it, to varying degrees. Ali, Tiger Woods, Jose Mourinho and others always shared some of these traits.

Which led me to thinking about tennis, and especially, today's game. By comparison, tennis today is "softer" than say, the NBA in the 80's/90's, Boxing, Soccer, and even tennis itself in the 80's. Of course, there is a difference in culture between different sports and that's fine. However, it seems to me that many of the above-mentioned traits, which in many ways, are considered qualities in other sports, would be frowned up in today's game. Players should be humble, gracious, give credit to the opponent all the time, play exactly by the book, act and talk a certain way... and to this I ask, why?

Why can't they be obsessed with winning, first and foremost? Why can't they ONLY be obsessed with winning? When Jordan did some of the things that gave him an edge, or Shaq and Barkley gave small elbows in the paint to establish their presence and intimidate opponents, they were praised for it. It was part of the game.

This isn't the case in tennis. Nadal is often criticized (and perhaps rightly so) for taking too much time between points, making players wait at the net...etc. Yet, someone like Jordan would probably praise him for doing little things that give him an edge.

I look at many top tennis players today, and I don't see this "winning is everything" attitude. There is an obvious example: Rafael Nadal. I saw videos of him playing video games, and you can see how competitive he is, even when doing something as minor. Recently, Novak has become somewhat similar, albeit more laid back. Hewitt in his day, was certainly another example. Federer is interesting, because you don't win as much as he did without having this mentality, even if he doesn't appear to be as intense as someone like Nadal or Djokovic. Ditto for Pete. And yet, ALL these players are criticized if they show signs of being sore losers, making arrogant comments, etc... I personally don't get it. The game could use a bit of spice. I want sore losers (not to be confused with excuse makers). I want players who would do anything that gives them an edge (not to be confused with downright illegal actions). I want players to be less friendly, and I want them to be able to speak up their minds without the sportsmanship police jumping on them.

I'm not saying tennis needs to turn into the 90's NBA. Different sports, different cultures, different times, etc... But I do think it's becoming a bit too idealistic, and it shows with the mentality of some of the players, and the fans too.

When I look into the eyes of the elite 7 or 8 players of today, I see NOTHING but the INSANE drive and will to win at all costs. It is BEYOND insane. Not sure where you are coming from.

Professional tennis players, unlike NBA, MLB, and NFL players appear on a global stage. The press that is demanded of them is beyond anything any athlete has been asked to do.

Off the court they are expected to act like human beings, again, unlike NBA, MLB, and NFL players.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Off the court they are expected to act like human beings, again, unlike NBA, MLB, and NFL players.

What an offensively stupid comment.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Soccer has always been my favorite sport. Tennis has come second. Yet, growing up, my favorite athlete was Michael Jordan, even today. If you go to Youtube and hear former teammates, opponents and various Basketball greats talk about him, especially those who knew him best, one theme constantly pops up: the will to win.

Yeah, they'll bring up his athleticism, great defense, hard work, improvement, his mid range jumper, his improved post game, his dunking, etc... but more than anything, they talk about him being an obsessed winner. That's part of the reason why he is arguably the greatest player in the clutch, in any sport, period. His obsession in winning made him the hardest working, the hungriest, the best... It allowed him to maximize his talent.

And yet, as inspiring as all of this sounds, there is a "darker" side to Jordan. Despite being one of the most popular athletes in history, Jordan's qualities (beyond Basketball) weren't the kind of qualities we discuss in tennis players (ie: humble, funny, etc...). Most were in awe of him, and everyone had huge respect for his game, but Michael "the person" is not something you hear about often. There are stories of him berating teammates when they couldn't perform, even to the point of bullying. He was at times an a$$hole to opponents, and a trash talking machine. All you have to do is listen to his 2009 hall of fame speech. It's actually a pretty telling trip down the mind of the one of the greatest sportsmen ever.

If you have time to kill, watch these two videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ZaudNTSeQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLzBMGXfK4c

Magic Johnson talks about how during the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona, he, Jordan, Pippen and Barkley would stay up till 5 in the morning playing cards because Jordan refused to leave the table until he won. In fact, that's part of the reason Jordan wanted to play Baseball. His obsession with winning led him to continuously set new challenges for himself, and he felt, at the time (1994) that he had nothing left to prove in Basketball.

If you listen to Jordan rivals like Reggie Miller talk about him, they all talk (in admiration) of his "win at all costs" attitude. That is not to be confused with shady or dirty tactics (that's Isiah Tomas' job), but anything that gave him an edge, Jordan did it. He was accused of "conning" the likes of Barkley, Ewing and Oakley, befriending them, softening them up, and then destroying them on the Bastkeball court...

Now, this isn't a history lesson about Michael Jordan. This is about Michael Jordan's mentality, and what it represented. A mentality that can transcend into every sport. In fact, most greats share it, to varying degrees. Ali, Tiger Woods, Jose Mourinho and others always shared some of these traits.

Which led me to thinking about tennis, and especially, today's game. By comparison, tennis today is "softer" than say, the NBA in the 80's/90's, Boxing, Soccer, and even tennis itself in the 80's. Of course, there is a difference in culture between different sports and that's fine. However, it seems to me that many of the above-mentioned traits, which in many ways, are considered qualities in other sports, would be frowned up in today's game. Players should be humble, gracious, give credit to the opponent all the time, play exactly by the book, act and talk a certain way... and to this I ask, why?

Why can't they be obsessed with winning, first and foremost? Why can't they ONLY be obsessed with winning? When Jordan did some of the things that gave him an edge, or Shaq and Barkley gave small elbows in the paint to establish their presence and intimidate opponents, they were praised for it. It was part of the game.

This isn't the case in tennis. Nadal is often criticized (and perhaps rightly so) for taking too much time between points, making players wait at the net...etc. Yet, someone like Jordan would probably praise him for doing little things that give him an edge.

I look at many top tennis players today, and I don't see this "winning is everything" attitude. There is an obvious example: Rafael Nadal. I saw videos of him playing video games, and you can see how competitive he is, even when doing something as minor. Recently, Novak has become somewhat similar, albeit more laid back. Hewitt in his day, was certainly another example. Federer is interesting, because you don't win as much as he did without having this mentality, even if he doesn't appear to be as intense as someone like Nadal or Djokovic. Ditto for Pete. And yet, ALL these players are criticized if they show signs of being sore losers, making arrogant comments, etc... I personally don't get it. The game could use a bit of spice. I want sore losers (not to be confused with excuse makers). I want players who would do anything that gives them an edge (not to be confused with downright illegal actions). I want players to be less friendly, and I want them to be able to speak up their minds without the sportsmanship police jumping on them.

I'm not saying tennis needs to turn into the 90's NBA. Different sports, different cultures, different times, etc... But I do think it's becoming a bit too idealistic, and it shows with the mentality of some of the players, and the fans too.

When I look into the eyes of the elite 7 or 8 players of today, I see NOTHING but the INSANE drive and will to win at all costs. It is BEYOND insane. Not sure where you are coming from.

Professional tennis players, unlike NBA, MLB, and NFL players appear on a global stage. The press that is demanded of them is beyond anything any athlete has been asked to do.

Off the court they are expected to act like human beings, again, unlike NBA, MLB, and NFL players.

Off the court they are expected to act like human beings, again, unlike NBA, MLB, and NFL players.

What an offensively stupid comment.

Hardly. The truth is never offensive.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Gents, this is a great topic, let's keep it that way and not get it out of hand with name calling and such,please?

My 2 cents:

I loved Jordan. Everything about him, his desire to win, his trash talking but backing it up with game, refusing to lose, making grown man cry in the locker room...He said " There is no "I" in team, but there is one in "win" "

The thing is he was not dirty...at least not as dirty as Stockton or Thomas or some others. His game was enough. He did everything to win.

I can see the same passion in a lot of the tennis players eyes as well. I can see Federer pretty much dying inside in every presser after a loss...trying so hard to be generous in a loss but most of the time not succeeding. I can tell Nole is that way too...dying inside, ditto with Rafa, like the time he went into the shower and cried his heart out because he lost a match to Roger.

These guys have the fire, for sure, but they are very well trained not to show it that much, I think. Because that might be perceived as a weakness maybe? When Roger could not help the tears from falling at the AO, there was an enormous amount of frustration there...he just could not hold it in any more.

Sure, the Connors-Jmac era of constant outbursts had its moments, but the guys today, they are not fooling anyone with all the niceties...They might even genuinely like each other, but once it is business time, they want to tear each other's hearts out, which is the way it should be.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Gents, this is a great topic, let's keep it that way and not get it out of hand with name calling and such,please?

My 2 cents:

I loved Jordan. Everything about him, his desire to win, his trash talking but backing it up with game, refusing to lose, making grown man cry in the locker room...He said " There is no "I" in team, but there is one in "win" "

The thing is he was not dirty...at least not as dirty as Stockton or Thomas or some others. His game was enough. He did everything to win.

I can see the same passion in a lot of the tennis players eyes as well. I can see Federer pretty much dying inside in every presser after a loss...trying so hard to be generous in a loss but most of the time not succeeding. I can tell Nole is that way too...dying inside, ditto with Rafa, like the time he went into the shower and cried his heart out because he lost a match to Roger.

These guys have the fire, for sure, but they are very well trained not to show it that much, I think. Because that might be perceived as a weakness maybe? When Roger could not help the tears from falling at the AO, there was an enormous amount of frustration there...he just could not hold it in any more.

Sure, the Connors-Jmac era of constant outbursts had its moments, but the guys today, they are not fooling anyone with all the niceties...They might even genuinely like each other, but once it is business time, they want to tear each other's hearts out, which is the way it should be.

Playing tennis at the very highest level, and wining majors is about controlling your emotions. Elite tennis players, more so than any other athletes, are vey best at it. There many reasons for this.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Soccer has always been my favorite sport. Tennis has come second. Yet, growing up, my favorite athlete was Michael Jordan, even today. If you go to Youtube and hear former teammates, opponents and various Basketball greats talk about him, especially those who knew him best, one theme constantly pops up: the will to win.

Yeah, they'll bring up his athleticism, great defense, hard work, improvement, his mid range jumper, his improved post game, his dunking, etc... but more than anything, they talk about him being an obsessed winner. That's part of the reason why he is arguably the greatest player in the clutch, in any sport, period. His obsession in winning made him the hardest working, the hungriest, the best... It allowed him to maximize his talent.

And yet, as inspiring as all of this sounds, there is a "darker" side to Jordan. Despite being one of the most popular athletes in history, Jordan's qualities (beyond Basketball) weren't the kind of qualities we discuss in tennis players (ie: humble, funny, etc...). Most were in awe of him, and everyone had huge respect for his game, but Michael "the person" is not something you hear about often. There are stories of him berating teammates when they couldn't perform, even to the point of bullying. He was at times an a$$hole to opponents, and a trash talking machine. All you have to do is listen to his 2009 hall of fame speech. It's actually a pretty telling trip down the mind of the one of the greatest sportsmen ever.

If you have time to kill, watch these two videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ZaudNTSeQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLzBMGXfK4c

Magic Johnson talks about how during the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona, he, Jordan, Pippen and Barkley would stay up till 5 in the morning playing cards because Jordan refused to leave the table until he won. In fact, that's part of the reason Jordan wanted to play Baseball. His obsession with winning led him to continuously set new challenges for himself, and he felt, at the time (1994) that he had nothing left to prove in Basketball.

If you listen to Jordan rivals like Reggie Miller talk about him, they all talk (in admiration) of his "win at all costs" attitude. That is not to be confused with shady or dirty tactics (that's Isiah Tomas' job), but anything that gave him an edge, Jordan did it. He was accused of "conning" the likes of Barkley, Ewing and Oakley, befriending them, softening them up, and then destroying them on the Bastkeball court...

Now, this isn't a history lesson about Michael Jordan. This is about Michael Jordan's mentality, and what it represented. A mentality that can transcend into every sport. In fact, most greats share it, to varying degrees. Ali, Tiger Woods, Jose Mourinho and others always shared some of these traits.

Which led me to thinking about tennis, and especially, today's game. By comparison, tennis today is "softer" than say, the NBA in the 80's/90's, Boxing, Soccer, and even tennis itself in the 80's. Of course, there is a difference in culture between different sports and that's fine. However, it seems to me that many of the above-mentioned traits, which in many ways, are considered qualities in other sports, would be frowned up in today's game. Players should be humble, gracious, give credit to the opponent all the time, play exactly by the book, act and talk a certain way... and to this I ask, why?

Why can't they be obsessed with winning, first and foremost? Why can't they ONLY be obsessed with winning? When Jordan did some of the things that gave him an edge, or Shaq and Barkley gave small elbows in the paint to establish their presence and intimidate opponents, they were praised for it. It was part of the game.

This isn't the case in tennis. Nadal is often criticized (and perhaps rightly so) for taking too much time between points, making players wait at the net...etc. Yet, someone like Jordan would probably praise him for doing little things that give him an edge.

I look at many top tennis players today, and I don't see this "winning is everything" attitude. There is an obvious example: Rafael Nadal. I saw videos of him playing video games, and you can see how competitive he is, even when doing something as minor. Recently, Novak has become somewhat similar, albeit more laid back. Hewitt in his day, was certainly another example. Federer is interesting, because you don't win as much as he did without having this mentality, even if he doesn't appear to be as intense as someone like Nadal or Djokovic. Ditto for Pete. And yet, ALL these players are criticized if they show signs of being sore losers, making arrogant comments, etc... I personally don't get it. The game could use a bit of spice. I want sore losers (not to be confused with excuse makers). I want players who would do anything that gives them an edge (not to be confused with downright illegal actions). I want players to be less friendly, and I want them to be able to speak up their minds without the sportsmanship police jumping on them.

I'm not saying tennis needs to turn into the 90's NBA. Different sports, different cultures, different times, etc... But I do think it's becoming a bit too idealistic, and it shows with the mentality of some of the players, and the fans too.

When I look into the eyes of the elite 7 or 8 players of today, I see NOTHING but the INSANE drive and will to win at all costs. It is BEYOND insane. Not sure where you are coming from.

Professional tennis players, unlike NBA, MLB, and NFL players appear on a global stage. The press that is demanded of them is beyond anything any athlete has been asked to do.

Off the court they are expected to act like human beings, again, unlike NBA, MLB, and NFL players.

Off the court they are expected to act like human beings, again, unlike NBA, MLB, and NFL players.

What an offensively stupid comment.

Hardly. The truth is never offensive.

You're lumping together a HUGE amount of people by saying they're not expected to act like human beings... Not sure how can't you see what's wrong with that statement.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Gents, this is a great topic, let's keep it that way and not get it out of hand with name calling and such,please?

My 2 cents:

I loved Jordan. Everything about him, his desire to win, his trash talking but backing it up with game, refusing to lose, making grown man cry in the locker room...He said " There is no "I" in team, but there is one in "win" "

The thing is he was not dirty...at least not as dirty as Stockton or Thomas or some others. His game was enough. He did everything to win.

I can see the same passion in a lot of the tennis players eyes as well. I can see Federer pretty much dying inside in every presser after a loss...trying so hard to be generous in a loss but most of the time not succeeding. I can tell Nole is that way too...dying inside, ditto with Rafa, like the time he went into the shower and cried his heart out because he lost a match to Roger.

These guys have the fire, for sure, but they are very well trained not to show it that much, I think. Because that might be perceived as a weakness maybe? When Roger could not help the tears from falling at the AO, there was an enormous amount of frustration there...he just could not hold it in any more.

Sure, the Connors-Jmac era of constant outbursts had its moments, but the guys today, they are not fooling anyone with all the niceties...They might even genuinely like each other, but once it is business time, they want to tear each other's hearts out, which is the way it should be.

Playing tennis at the very highest level, and wining majors is about controlling your emotions. Elite tennis players, more so than any other athletes, are vey best at it. There many reasons for this.

Borg, as much as I agree with you, and I really do, can you tell me how many slams have been won between JMac and Connors? There is more than one way to skin a cat, as they say. Those two THRIVED on emotion. And they showed it. Jmac asks in his book about himself, if he would have been better off if he kept it inside and even he cannot answer that question...

 

[brokenshoelace]

When I look into the eyes of the elite 7 or 8 players of today, I see NOTHING but the INSANE drive and will to win at all costs. It is BEYOND insane. Not sure where you are coming from.

Most of you are missing the point. It's not just about drive to win. OF COURSE top tennis players have an immense drive to win.

It's about the sort of drive and determination that makes you go an extra mile. As I said, and Murat mentioned that briefly, it's not about being dirty or cheating. But it's about doing EVERYTHING (legal) to gain an edge.

I don't see that in 7 or 8 elite players, nor am I demanding to see it, and that's the point nobody's getting. What I'm saying is, why is it that when we actually DO see it, it is frowned upon?

Why was Michael Jordan praised for every little thing he did (deservedly so), but say, Rafael Nadal is criticized for making an opponent wait at the net or taking too long in between points?

Let me be clear: I think the umpire SHOULD give him time violations. I also, as a viewer, prefer NOT to wait 30 seconds in between every point. But as a player whose sole purpose is to win, if I can get away with it, and it actually does help me, I WOULD DO IT EACH AND EVERY TIME.

That's the "obsessed winner" mentality.

Again, let me be clear: this post is not meant to diminish players who don't adopt this attitude. You can't have 30 Michael Jordans, otherwise Jordan wouldn't have been so special. I'm just asking why does the tennis culture frown upon those who adopt this attitude?

What I'm talking about is beyond the mere drive to win...it's about going that extra mile.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Gents, this is a great topic, let's keep it that way and not get it out of hand with name calling and such,please?

My 2 cents:

I loved Jordan. Everything about him, his desire to win, his trash talking but backing it up with game, refusing to lose, making grown man cry in the locker room...He said " There is no "I" in team, but there is one in "win" "

The thing is he was not dirty...at least not as dirty as Stockton or Thomas or some others. His game was enough. He did everything to win.

I can see the same passion in a lot of the tennis players eyes as well. I can see Federer pretty much dying inside in every presser after a loss...trying so hard to be generous in a loss but most of the time not succeeding. I can tell Nole is that way too...dying inside, ditto with Rafa, like the time he went into the shower and cried his heart out because he lost a match to Roger.

These guys have the fire, for sure, but they are very well trained not to show it that much, I think. Because that might be perceived as a weakness maybe? When Roger could not help the tears from falling at the AO, there was an enormous amount of frustration there...he just could not hold it in any more.

Sure, the Connors-Jmac era of constant outbursts had its moments, but the guys today, they are not fooling anyone with all the niceties...They might even genuinely like each other, but once it is business time, they want to tear each other's hearts out, which is the way it should be.

Playing tennis at the very highest level, and wining majors is about controlling your emotions. Elite tennis players, more so than any other athletes, are vey best at it. There many reasons for this.

Borg, as much as I agree with you, and I really do, can you tell me how many slams have been won between JMac and Connors? There is more than one way to skin a cat, as they say. Those two THRIVED on emotion. And they showed it. Jmac asks in his book about himself, if he would have been better off if he kept it inside and even he cannot answer that question...

Remember, I said CONTROL emotions, not suppress them.

Not everyone can reach the summit being like Borg or Sampras.

McEnroe was such a unique entity he almost can be used as a example for anything.

To answer his question, he would have had at least 12 slams. Def. 1 French!!!!!

 

[brokenshoelace]

Sure, the Connors-Jmac era of constant outbursts had its moments, but the guys today, they are not fooling anyone with all the niceties...They might even genuinely like each other, but once it is business time, they want to tear each other's hearts out, which is the way it should be.

I agree with this, but let me clarify: It's not about hate, or exchanging words on court. It's not about arguing with the umpire. It's about a certain attitude. An attitude that not every can or even should have, but it's about an attitude that is seemingly frowned upon in tennis.

If a player does ANYTHING outside of what is expected as far as tennis protocol goes, people go insane. Why?

 

[Luxilon Borg]

When I look into the eyes of the elite 7 or 8 players of today, I see NOTHING but the INSANE drive and will to win at all costs. It is BEYOND insane. Not sure where you are coming from.

Most of you are missing the point. It's not just about drive to win. OF COURSE top tennis players have an immense drive to win.

It's about the sort of drive and determination that makes you go an extra mile. As I said, and Murat mentioned that briefly, it's not about being dirty or cheating. But it's about doing EVERYTHING (legal) to gain an edge.

I don't see that in 7 or 8 elite players, nor am I demanding to see it, and that's the point nobody's getting. What I'm saying is, why is it that when we actually DO see it, it is frowned upon?

Why was Michael Jordan praised for every little thing he did (deservedly so), but say, Rafael Nadal is criticized for making an opponent wait at the net or taking too long in between points?

Let me be clear: I think the umpire SHOULD give him time violations. I also, as a viewer, prefer NOT to wait 30 seconds in between every point. But as a player whose sole purpose is to win, if I can get away with it, and it actually does help me, I WOULD DO IT EACH AND EVERY TIME.

That's the "obsessed winner" mentality.

Again, let me be clear: this post is not meant to diminish players who don't adopt this attitude. You can't have 30 Michael Jordans, otherwise Jordan wouldn't have been so special. I'm just asking why does the tennis culture frown upon those who adopt this attitude?

What I'm talking about is beyond the mere drive to win...it's about going that extra mile.

Who says the tennis world frowns upon a win at all costs attitude?

You think too much. I really don't know what you expect from these guys. I think you will
find something to complain about no matter what. Backwards baseball caps annoy the hell out of me, but that is just too bad for me.

Tennis, beyond ANY other sport requires discipline. As someone who worked in the locker room at Flushing Meadows, i can tell you that the entire day revolves around these guys performing at their very best, and that includes meal planning, pre workout activation, warm up, match or practice, and recovery. They don't have ANY WHERE NEAR the downtime of of NBA, MLB, or NFL players.

Having watched a thousand ATP level matches and practice sessions in person I can tell you the players have one purpose, and one purpose only, and that is to win.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Sure, the Connors-Jmac era of constant outbursts had its moments, but the guys today, they are not fooling anyone with all the niceties...They might even genuinely like each other, but once it is business time, they want to tear each other's hearts out, which is the way it should be.

I agree with this, but let me clarify: It's not about hate, or exchanging words on court. It's not about arguing with the umpire. It's about a certain attitude. An attitude that not every can or even should have, but it's about an attitude that is seemingly frowned upon in tennis.

If a player does ANYTHING outside of what is expected as far as tennis protocol goes, people go insane. Why?

I think maybe what you are not seeing in your desire for a more animated approach, is that there is ZERO energy out there to spare. What Nadal does requires every damn molecule of his concentration, strength, speed, stamina, and concentration. You are dreaming if there is anything left over to entertain you.

 

[brokenshoelace]

When I look into the eyes of the elite 7 or 8 players of today, I see NOTHING but the INSANE drive and will to win at all costs. It is BEYOND insane. Not sure where you are coming from.

Most of you are missing the point. It's not just about drive to win. OF COURSE top tennis players have an immense drive to win.

It's about the sort of drive and determination that makes you go an extra mile. As I said, and Murat mentioned that briefly, it's not about being dirty or cheating. But it's about doing EVERYTHING (legal) to gain an edge.

I don't see that in 7 or 8 elite players, nor am I demanding to see it, and that's the point nobody's getting. What I'm saying is, why is it that when we actually DO see it, it is frowned upon?

Why was Michael Jordan praised for every little thing he did (deservedly so), but say, Rafael Nadal is criticized for making an opponent wait at the net or taking too long in between points?

Let me be clear: I think the umpire SHOULD give him time violations. I also, as a viewer, prefer NOT to wait 30 seconds in between every point. But as a player whose sole purpose is to win, if I can get away with it, and it actually does help me, I WOULD DO IT EACH AND EVERY TIME.

That's the "obsessed winner" mentality.

Again, let me be clear: this post is not meant to diminish players who don't adopt this attitude. You can't have 30 Michael Jordans, otherwise Jordan wouldn't have been so special. I'm just asking why does the tennis culture frown upon those who adopt this attitude?

What I'm talking about is beyond the mere drive to win...it's about going that extra mile.

Who says the tennis world frowns upon a win at all costs attitude?

You think too much. I really don't know what you expect from these guys. I think you will
find something to complain about no matter what. Backwards baseball caps annoy the hell out of me, but that is just too bad for me.

Tennis, beyond ANY other sport requires discipline. As someone who worked in the locker room at Flushing Meadows, i can tell you that the entire day revolves around these guys performing at their very best, and that includes meal planning, pre workout activation, warm up, match or practice, and recovery. They don't have ANY WHERE NEAR the downtime of of NBA, MLB, or NFL players.

Having watched a thousand ATP level matches and practice sessions in person I can tell you the players have one purpose, and one purpose only, and that is to win.

Jesus, you still think I'm saying these players don't have the desire to win. It's tough to argue with you because you have a ceiling under which you have to operate, so I have to spoon feed you every argument for you to comprehend what I mean, only for you to fail to understand the point regardless.

Because of that, I'll just ignore everything you write.