NBA (whenever)...

[PhiEaglesfan712]

Oh absolutely bro! That was arguably worse than the 2007 and 2015 teams he dragged there. Take LeBron off that team and you have a very blond JR Smith as the best player on the Cavs. None of those guys played any defense aside from LeBron and none of them could create their own shot aside from LeBron and maybe the blondie. They would have easily been a bottom 3-5 team in the league that year. I hope you don’t think that was actually a playoff team, even in the East.

Yeah, at least the 2007 and 2015 teams were respectable. They probably would have been 35-40 win, maybe fringe playoff teams without LeBron. The 2018 Cavs team were beyond pathetic. Not to mention, it even had a madeover during the season. I remember being on vacation in Portugal that spring (I believe this was during the Sixers 16-game winning streak to end the regular season) and saying that "this team is pathetic, there's no way LeBron is leading it to the Finals, and if he does, he automatically becomes the greatest ever on my list".

The 2018 Cavs would have been just like the early 2010s Cavs lottery teams.

 

[DarthFed]

Yeah, at least the 2007 and 2015 teams were respectable. They probably would have been 35-40 win, maybe fringe playoff teams without LeBron. The 2018 Cavs team were beyond pathetic. Not to mention, it even had a madeover during the season. I remember being on vacation in Portugal that spring (I believe this was during the Sixers 16-game winning streak to end the regular season) and saying that "this team is pathetic, there's no way LeBron is leading it to the Finals, and if he does, he automatically becomes the greatest ever on my list".

The 2018 Cavs would have been just like the early 2010s Cavs lottery teams.

There is no way that 2007 or 2015 team (no Kyrie or Love after first round) comes close to that many wins. Regarding 2007, we saw what happened to the Cavs after LeBron left in 2010, they went from the best record in the league to the worst record in the league. And the roster didn’t change all that much from 2007 to 2010…ie they were beyond atrocious. The Decision was a long time ago but people forget that no one was blaming LeBron for ditching the Cavs. They had 7 years to put a team around him and they failed miserably. People were upset with the way he left and who he left for, and for good reason!

The 2015 team had Tristin Kardashian as maybe the 2nd best player in those finals. I was legitimately surprised LeBron got them past the Bulls that year as D Rose was back playing decent ball and then you had Butler, Noah, aging but still decent Pau Gasol and an all around pretty good team. The Hawks in the ECF were a 60 win team but didn’t have as much talent as the Bulls so I knew that was going to be an easy series for LeBron regardless of who was out there.

 

[the AntiPusher]

I’m pulling for the Cavs here. I like Spida and it’d be a nice step for him to finally make a conference finals. And also to spite Detroit fans who act like their worthless football team is the cat’s meow after 2 decent seasons.

I expect either team will get bulldozed by the Knicks and I’m good with that, a long awaited trip back to the Finals for the Knicks.

We're in the majority.. I'm so sick of the overrated Dan Gamble's pussycats.. I'm glad my Niners ripped their hearts out a few years ago in the playoffs.. However.. I like Cam and would prefer to see them take on the Knicks... Cam is a better version of Camelo Anthony IMO.

 

[DarthFed]

We're in the majority.. I'm so sick of the overrated Dan Gamble's pussycats.. I'm glad my Niners ripped their hearts out a few years ago in the playoffs.. However.. I like Cam and would prefer to see them take on the Knicks... Cam is a better version of Camelo Anthony IMO.

I liked Melo but he was not really a “winning player” IMO aside from maybe his peak years with Denver. Played no defense and never saw a shot he didn’t like. But his scoring prowess made him a legit NBA HOF’er and he was fun to watch.

Ultimately I think his best achievements were outside of the NBA; Team USA and leading Syracuse to a natty in his one and only year in college.

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

There is no way that 2007 or 2015 team (no Kyrie or Love after first round) comes close to that many wins. Regarding 2007, we saw what happened to the Cavs after LeBron left in 2010, they went from the best record in the league to the worst record in the league. And the roster didn’t change all that much from 2007 to 2010…ie they were beyond atrocious. The Decision was a long time ago but people forget that no one was blaming LeBron for ditching the Cavs. They had 7 years to put a team around him and they failed miserably. People were upset with the way he left and who he left for, and for good reason!

The 2015 team had Tristin Kardashian as maybe the 2nd best player in those finals. I was legitimately surprised LeBron got them past the Bulls that year as D Rose was back playing decent ball and then you had Butler, Noah, aging but still decent Pau Gasol and an all around pretty good team. The Hawks in the ECF were a 60 win team but didn’t have as much talent as the Bulls so I knew that was going to be an easy series for LeBron regardless of who was out there.

The 2007-09 teams were good, even outside of LeBron. Where they went wrong was trading for Shaq (who left the next year anyway), then trading Žydrūnas Ilgauskas for Antawn Jamison. What made those 2007-09 teams good was the role players, especially Ilgauskas (he was an underrated, but very good player... basicaly the heart and soul of those Cavs teams outside of LeBron). Removing those players in 2010 made the team a lot worse than the previous iterations, which is why the Cavs lost to the Celtics. If they had Ilgauskas (and some of those role players that were traded away in the 2010 season), the Cavs would have been respectable post-LeBron. The product on the floor in 2011 was a lot different than the supporting cast LeBron played with in 2007 or 2008.

I think in 2015, iirc Love and Kyrie were available for the Bulls series.

 

[DarthFed]

The 2007-09 teams were good, even outside of LeBron. Where they went wrong was trading for Shaq (who left the next year anyway), then trading Žydrūnas Ilgauskas for Antawn Jamison. What made those 2007-09 teams good was the role players, especially Ilgauskas (he was an underrated, but very good player... basicaly the heart and soul of those Cavs teams outside of LeBron). Removing those players in 2010 made the team a lot worse than the previous iterations, which is why the Cavs lost to the Celtics. If they had Ilgauskas (and some of those role players that were traded away in the 2010 season), the Cavs would have been respectable post-LeBron. The product on the floor in 2011 was a lot different than the supporting cast LeBron played with in 2007 or 2008.

I think in 2015, iirc Love and Kyrie were available for the Bulls series.

We will agree to disagree on those Cavs teams. Ilgauskas was a good player but not a good #2 player and they just didn’t have much talent at any time on that roster. I watched the NBA a ton back then and was not at all a LeBron fan when he came into the league. Like everyone else, the hype was annoying and everyone wanted him to fail. But by 2007 it was kind of already undeniable what he was doing and that’s because it was clear that team stunk around him. It was a decrease in 42 wins the season he left. There is no way to explain that aside from the obvious.

You are right about 2015. Kyrie actually played the full Bulls series, a couple games of Hawks series and game 1 of the Finals. I did not remember that at all. Love was out after the first round. But that does make the 2015 run less impressive.

 

[Federberg]

Epic trolling

 

[Federberg]

Nasty comparison

 

[kskate2]

If nothing else, Brooks is dedicated to the pettiness. Gotta respect it.

It's not his only dedication. Seems extremely devoted to dropping cash for that fugly grill in his mouth. Yikes.

 

[kskate2]

Epic trolling

That's just plain wrong... LOL

 

[kskate2]

The alien is mad and wants revenge. Early in the 1Q and he has 16 of the team's 24 pts.

 

[brokenshoelace]

lol! This is the sort of LeBron loving hyperbole that drives me crazy. Are you really claiming that 2018 Cavs team was a 20 win team without LeBron? I'll grant you they would have done considerably less well that with LeBron, but that Eastern conference was trash. C'mon man

Well, let's examine. Without Lebron, the Cavs roster would be:

Calderón	PG	6-3	200	September 28, 1981	es ES	12
8	Jordan Clarkson	SG	6-5	194	June 7, 1992	us US	3	Tulsa, Missouri
99	Jae Crowder	SF	6-6	235	July 6, 1990	us US	5	Marquette
8	Channing Frye	C	7-0	255	May 17, 1983	us US	11	Arizona
32	Jeff Green	PF	6-8	235	August 28, 1986	us US	9	Georgetown
3	George Hill	PG	6-4	188	May 4, 1986	us US	9	IUPUI
10	John Holland	SF	6-5	205	November 6, 1988	us US	1	Boston University
1	Rodney Hood	SG	6-8	208	October 20, 1992	us US	3	Mississippi State, Duke
23	LeBron James	PF	6-9	250	December 30, 1984	us US	14
26	Kyle Korver	SG	6-7	212	March 17, 1981	us US	14	Creighton
0	Kevin Love	C	6-10	251	September 7, 1988	us US	9	UCLA
22, 24	Larry Nance Jr.	C	6-6	245	January 1, 1993	us US	2	Wyoming
16	Cedi Osman	SF	6-7	230	April 8, 1995	mk MK	R
21	Kendrick Perkins	C	6-10	270	November 10, 1984	us US	13
15	London Perrantes	PG	6-2	200	October 3, 1994	us US	R	Virginia
1	Derrick Rose	PG	6-3	200	October 4, 1988	us US	8	Memphis
4	Iman Shumpert	SG	6-5	212	June 26, 1990	us US	6	Georgia Tech
5	J.R. Smith	SG	6-6	225	September 9, 1985	us US	13	North Carolina A&T
3	Isaiah Thomas	PG	5-9	185	February 7, 1989	us US	6	Washington
13	Tristan Thompson	C	6-9	254	March 13, 1991	ca CA	6	Texas
9	Dwyane Wade	SG	6-4	220	January 17, 1982	us US	14	Marquette
41	Ante Žižić	C	6-10	266	January 4, 1997	hr HR	R

Obviously you gotta factor in that Wade and Rose were completely washed and in Wade's case did not see out the rest of the season (I don't remember what happened with Rose but he did not play in the playoffs). Now, let's look at the roster for Orlando Magic, who finished with 25 wins. That Cavs team is a 30 win team at best.

1	Jonathon Simmons	28	69	50	2029	354	761	.465	69	204	.338	285	557	.512	.511	185	241	.768	61	178	239	171	58	16	146	175	962	0
2	Aaron Gordon	22	58	57	1909	375	865	.434	115	342	.336	260	523	.497	.500	157	225	.698	87	370	457	136	59	45	107	111	1022	0
3	Evan Fournier	25	57	57	1837	368	802	.459	127	335	.379	241	467	.516	.538	150	173	.867	23	157	180	165	47	16	95	138	1013	0
4	D.J. Augustin	30	75	36	1760	244	540	.452	114	272	.419	130	268	.485	.557	164	189	.868	30	130	160	287	54	0	123	94	766	0
5	Nikola Vučević	27	57	57	1683	399	840	.475	64	204	.314	335	636	.527	.513	77	94	.819	101	422	523	191	56	62	109	144	939	1
6	Mario Hezonja	22	75	30	1657	273	617	.442	90	267	.337	183	350	.523	.515	86	105	.819	41	240	281	106	81	31	86	134	722	0
7	Bismack Biyombo	25	82	25	1495	183	352	.520	0	1	.000	183	351	.521	.520	102	157	.650	144	324	468	66	21	95	84	158	468	0
8	Shelvin Mack	27	69	3	1365	178	414	.430	48	139	.345	130	275	.473	.488	69	97	.711	23	143	166	272	54	8	89	91	473	0
9	Elfrid Payton	23	44	44	1257	238	458	.520	25	67	.373	213	391	.545	.547	72	114	.632	47	127	174	275	64	16	114	97	573	0
10	Wes Iwundu	23	62	12	1020	93	218	.427	9	46	.196	84	172	.488	.447	34	47	.723	36	101	137	57	33	12	30	81	229	0
11	Arron Afflalo	32	53	3	682	65	162	.401	27	70	.386	38	92	.413	.485	22	26	.846	4	62	66	30	4	9	21	56	179	0
12	Marreese Speights	30	52	3	675	138	349	.395	86	233	.369	52	116	.448	.519	40	55	.727	21	112	133	40	8	22	40	106	402	0
13	Terrence Ross	26	24	20	600	76	191	.398	30	93	.323	46	98	.469	.476	27	36	.750	10	63	73	38	27	11	29	45	209	0
14	Khem Birch	25	42	0	578	68	126	.540	0	0		68	126	.540	.540	42	61	.689	70	110	180	34	15	21	21	56	178	0
15	Jonathan Isaac	20	27	10	536	55	145	.379	16	46	.348	39	99	.394	.434	19	25	.760	16	83	99	18	33	30	27	48	145	0
16	Rodney Purvis	23	16	2	290	35	107	.327	13	52	.250	22	55	.400	.388	13	15	.867	1	26	27	17	3	3	10	26	96	0
17	Jamel Artis	25	15	1	279	31	79	.392	8	29	.276	23	50	.460	.443	7	12	.583	4	34	38	18	2	3	8	11	77	0
18	Adreian Payne	26	5	0	43	7	10	.700	2	3	.667	5	7	.714	.800	5	6	.833	2	7	9	0	2	0	2	6	21	0
19	Rashad Vaughn	21	5	0	35	2	6	.333	1	2	.500	1	4	.250	.417	0	0		1

 

[brokenshoelace]

Nasty comparison

Perhaps a more accurate comparison would have been Jordan's last shot as a Wizard. I think Jordan is the GOAT but it is absolutely incredible how everyone agreed to pretend the Wizards years didn't happen. I'm not saying he was good or bad, I'm just saying there's a damn near literal mass hypnosis.

 

[brokenshoelace]

The Julius Randle/KAT trade is one of the weirdest to assess because KAT is obviously the much better player and he's done well in New York, but the Timberwolves have had their best results since KAT left...except very little of that had anything to do with Randle playing well at all. He's one of the most infuriating players to watch and hasn't improved a lick in his career.

 

[DarthFed]

Well, let's examine. Without Lebron, the Cavs roster would be:

Calderón	PG	6-3	200	September 28, 1981	es ES	12
8	Jordan Clarkson	SG	6-5	194	June 7, 1992	us US	3	Tulsa, Missouri
99	Jae Crowder	SF	6-6	235	July 6, 1990	us US	5	Marquette
8	Channing Frye	C	7-0	255	May 17, 1983	us US	11	Arizona
32	Jeff Green	PF	6-8	235	August 28, 1986	us US	9	Georgetown
3	George Hill	PG	6-4	188	May 4, 1986	us US	9	IUPUI
10	John Holland	SF	6-5	205	November 6, 1988	us US	1	Boston University
1	Rodney Hood	SG	6-8	208	October 20, 1992	us US	3	Mississippi State, Duke
23	LeBron James	PF	6-9	250	December 30, 1984	us US	14
26	Kyle Korver	SG	6-7	212	March 17, 1981	us US	14	Creighton
0	Kevin Love	C	6-10	251	September 7, 1988	us US	9	UCLA
22, 24	Larry Nance Jr.	C	6-6	245	January 1, 1993	us US	2	Wyoming
16	Cedi Osman	SF	6-7	230	April 8, 1995	mk MK	R
21	Kendrick Perkins	C	6-10	270	November 10, 1984	us US	13
15	London Perrantes	PG	6-2	200	October 3, 1994	us US	R	Virginia
1	Derrick Rose	PG	6-3	200	October 4, 1988	us US	8	Memphis
4	Iman Shumpert	SG	6-5	212	June 26, 1990	us US	6	Georgia Tech
5	J.R. Smith	SG	6-6	225	September 9, 1985	us US	13	North Carolina A&T
3	Isaiah Thomas	PG	5-9	185	February 7, 1989	us US	6	Washington
13	Tristan Thompson	C	6-9	254	March 13, 1991	ca CA	6	Texas
9	Dwyane Wade	SG	6-4	220	January 17, 1982	us US	14	Marquette
41	Ante Žižić	C	6-10	266	January 4, 1997	hr HR	R

Obviously you gotta factor in that Wade and Rose were completely washed and in Wade's case did not see out the rest of the season (I don't remember what happened with Rose but he did not play in the playoffs). Now, let's look at the roster for Orlando Magic, who finished with 25 wins. That Cavs team is a 30 win team at best.

1	Jonathon Simmons	28	69	50	2029	354	761	.465	69	204	.338	285	557	.512	.511	185	241	.768	61	178	239	171	58	16	146	175	962	0
2	Aaron Gordon	22	58	57	1909	375	865	.434	115	342	.336	260	523	.497	.500	157	225	.698	87	370	457	136	59	45	107	111	1022	0
3	Evan Fournier	25	57	57	1837	368	802	.459	127	335	.379	241	467	.516	.538	150	173	.867	23	157	180	165	47	16	95	138	1013	0
4	D.J. Augustin	30	75	36	1760	244	540	.452	114	272	.419	130	268	.485	.557	164	189	.868	30	130	160	287	54	0	123	94	766	0
5	Nikola Vučević	27	57	57	1683	399	840	.475	64	204	.314	335	636	.527	.513	77	94	.819	101	422	523	191	56	62	109	144	939	1
6	Mario Hezonja	22	75	30	1657	273	617	.442	90	267	.337	183	350	.523	.515	86	105	.819	41	240	281	106	81	31	86	134	722	0
7	Bismack Biyombo	25	82	25	1495	183	352	.520	0	1	.000	183	351	.521	.520	102	157	.650	144	324	468	66	21	95	84	158	468	0
8	Shelvin Mack	27	69	3	1365	178	414	.430	48	139	.345	130	275	.473	.488	69	97	.711	23	143	166	272	54	8	89	91	473	0
9	Elfrid Payton	23	44	44	1257	238	458	.520	25	67	.373	213	391	.545	.547	72	114	.632	47	127	174	275	64	16	114	97	573	0
10	Wes Iwundu	23	62	12	1020	93	218	.427	9	46	.196	84	172	.488	.447	34	47	.723	36	101	137	57	33	12	30	81	229	0
11	Arron Afflalo	32	53	3	682	65	162	.401	27	70	.386	38	92	.413	.485	22	26	.846	4	62	66	30	4	9	21	56	179	0
12	Marreese Speights	30	52	3	675	138	349	.395	86	233	.369	52	116	.448	.519	40	55	.727	21	112	133	40	8	22	40	106	402	0
13	Terrence Ross	26	24	20	600	76	191	.398	30	93	.323	46	98	.469	.476	27	36	.750	10	63	73	38	27	11	29	45	209	0
14	Khem Birch	25	42	0	578	68	126	.540	0	0		68	126	.540	.540	42	61	.689	70	110	180	34	15	21	21	56	178	0
15	Jonathan Isaac	20	27	10	536	55	145	.379	16	46	.348	39	99	.394	.434	19	25	.760	16	83	99	18	33	30	27	48	145	0
16	Rodney Purvis	23	16	2	290	35	107	.327	13	52	.250	22	55	.400	.388	13	15	.867	1	26	27	17	3	3	10	26	96	0
17	Jamel Artis	25	15	1	279	31	79	.392	8	29	.276	23	50	.460	.443	7	12	.583	4	34	38	18	2	3	8	11	77	0
18	Adreian Payne	26	5	0	43	7	10	.700	2	3	.667	5	7	.714	.800	5	6	.833	2	7	9	0	2	0	2	6	21	0
19	Rashad Vaughn	21	5	0	35	2	6	.333	1	2	.500	1	4	.250	.417	0	0		1

The Cavs traded away Wade, Rose, Thomas, Crowder and others for some shooters like Clarkson and Hood, as well as George Hill and Larry Nance Jr. It’s splitting hairs but that Magic roster to me is better than what LeBron had in the playoffs that year. I think people are forgetting just how awful they were. LeBron was playing insanely well even for his standards and it still took 7 games against Indy and Boston before they predictably got baptized in the finals.

 

[DarthFed]

The Julius Randle/KAT trade is one of the weirdest to assess because KAT is obviously the much better player and he's done well in New York, but the Timberwolves have had their best results since KAT left...except very little of that had anything to do with Randle playing well at all. He's one of the most infuriating players to watch and hasn't improved a lick in his career.

I think that’s just a timing thing…there’s been Ant’s development into a mega superstar since KAT left and guys like McDaniels emerging as well. They’d have a higher ceiling now with KAT

 

[Federberg]

I think that’s just a timing thing…there’s been Ant’s development into a mega superstar since KAT left and guys like McDaniels emerging as well. They’d have a higher ceiling now with KAT

Agreed, KAT is the better player. But... would he have been able to get out of his own way in Minnesota? Maybe maybe not. Sometimes the better player isn't necessarily the better contributor. But for sure Ant had come a long way and others on the team have moved on. I actually wouldn't be mad at all if the Knicks won it all. Anything to stop OKC!

 

[Federberg]

Perhaps a more accurate comparison would have been Jordan's last shot as a Wizard. I think Jordan is the GOAT but it is absolutely incredible how everyone agreed to pretend the Wizards years didn't happen. I'm not saying he was good or bad, I'm just saying there's a damn near literal mass hypnosis.

Well considering the fact that MJ only came back for the purpose of getting a stake in the team, we should be able contextualise his time at the Wizards. But to be honest I posted this because it came up on my stream and I found it amusing

 

[Federberg]

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

The Cavs traded away Wade, Rose, Thomas, Crowder and others for some shooters like Clarkson and Hood, as well as George Hill and Larry Nance Jr. It’s splitting hairs but that Magic roster to me is better than what LeBron had in the playoffs that year. I think people are forgetting just how awful they were. LeBron was playing insanely well even for his standards and it still took 7 games against Indy and Boston before they predictably got baptized in the finals.

Let's not forget that LeBron faced some very good Indiana and Boston teams throughout the years in the Eastern Conference. The only years when LeBron didn't have to face either team were in 2006, 2007, 2009, and 2016 (and the 2000s runs had those Pistons teams that went to 6 straight conference finals). So, the only one that really qualifies as a 'cakewalk' was 2016.

Whoever comes out of the Eastern Conference this year will have had a more cakewalk run than LeBron's Eastern Conference runs.