NBA 2017-18

[calitennis127]

Kyrie wanted out because he'd always be second banana in Cleveland while James was there. You should check out some of the things Kyrie was saying last year, that guy was not remotely a team player until he went to his own team and the Celtics have a hell of a coach. I'd rather not have the Celtics make it, boring team which would make a terrible finals. And the Cavs suck this year but I'd still bank on LeBron dragging them to the finals. Watching LeBron against the Warriors is sadly the best on offer in the NBA right now.

OKC can definitely beat Golden State and would be the favorites in my mind if they played head-to-head in the playoffs. No way Westbrook will lose to Durant if he is healthy and Melo and PG are healthy. He plays above his normal outstanding level against Golden State and having Melo and PG should be more than enough to push him over the top.

 

[DarthFed]

Maybe you should check the last minute of Game 6 again (see the video below). It was brutal. He went 1 for 4 including two airballs. He failed as the first option on 4 straight possessions (turnover, airball, airball, brick). On the last two he was bailed out by teammates getting offensive rebounds and kicking it out first to him and then to Ray Allen (both times for a 3).

- With 58 seconds left, Miami was down 91-89. LeBron went 1-on-1 and drove the ball middle. He lost it and turned it over in the lane with 42 seconds left.

- Then Ginobili hit two free throws to make it 93-89.

- After a drive middle, LeBron shot an airball in the lane with 30 seconds left.

- Then Ginobili made 1 of 2 free throws.

- With 28 seconds left, LeBron airballed a 3 off the backboard, but his teammates tracked it down and kicked it back out to him for a 3 from the wing that he hit (to his credit) to make it 94-92 with 22 seconds left.

- Then Leonard hit 1 of 2 free throws.

- LeBron attempted a 3 with 10 seconds left to tie it and bricked it; but then Bosh tracked it down and kicked out to Ray Allen for the game-tying 3. The rest is history.

Yes the last minute wasn't great but the guy singlehandedly brought the team back. You should check his stats in game 7's and other elimination games. It breaks your theories pretty easily.

 

[Federberg]

Yes the last minute wasn't great but the guy singlehandedly brought the team back. You should check his stats in game 7's and other elimination games. It breaks your theories pretty easily.

doesn't he stat stuff a bit though? Seems to me he never really believed the Cavs would beat GSW last year, and the first thing he did when defending his performance was point to his finals triple double. It's all very well pointing out stats but if prior players were only focused on winning to the detriment of their stats it's an unfair comparison. It's my primary discomfort with the whole GOAT debate in tennis. Unfair comparison

 

[calitennis127]

Yes the last minute wasn't great but the guy singlehandedly brought the team back. You should check his stats in game 7's and other elimination games. It breaks your theories pretty easily.

Darth, finishing games in the last 2 or 3 minutes is a different animal. LeBron apologists repeatedly bring up his strong overall 4th quarters as if that negates the reality that he repeatedly folds at the ends of games.

I have never said that LeBron is terrible start to finish in pressure games. What I have said is that he is disorganized and cowardly in the final 2 or 3 minutes of games. This is very clear. That Game 6 against San Antonio was a meltdown, plain and simple. If you fail as the first option on the last 4 possessions, that is outright failure as a superstar. Why do you deny that or skirt that issue?

 

[DarthFed]

doesn't he stat stuff a bit though? Seems to me he never really believed the Cavs would beat GSW last year, and the first thing he did when defending his performance was point to his finals triple double. It's all very well pointing out stats but if prior players were only focused on winning to the detriment of their stats it's an unfair comparison. It's my primary discomfort with the whole GOAT debate in tennis. Unfair comparison

I think 34/12/10 on 55% shooting doesn't need to be defended. I think if he took 30 shots and scored 40+ on average the team would've been worse off and then he'd just look like a ball hog.

 

[DarthFed]

Darth, finishing games in the last 2 or 3 minutes is a different animal. LeBron apologists repeatedly bring up his strong overall 4th quarters as if that negates the reality that he repeatedly folds at the ends of games.

I have never said that LeBron is terrible start to finish in pressure games. What I have said is that he is disorganized and cowardly in the final 2 or 3 minutes of games. This is very clear. That Game 6 against San Antonio was a meltdown, plain and simple. If you fail as the first option on the last 4 possessions, that is outright failure as a superstar. Why do you deny that or skirt that issue?

He doesn't meltdown in the clutch though. They even have statistics on it, and dwelling on one game in which he brought his team back from a 15 point deficit before missing a couple shots isn't exactly going to prove he sucks as a closer. He's made plenty of game winning shots in the playoffs. And if we are using one game as the argument I could just point out game 5 vs Detroit in 2007.

 

[calitennis127]

He doesn't meltdown in the clutch though. They even have statistics on it, and dwelling on one game in which he brought his team back from a 15 point deficit before missing a couple shots isn't exactly going to prove he sucks as a closer. He's made plenty of game winning shots in the playoffs. And if we are using one game as the argument I could just point out game 5 vs Detroit in 2007.

Please list the game winning shots he has made in the playoffs. The only one that comes to mind was the one against Chicago.

Please give me any examples you can think of in which he was a dominant scorer in the last 2 or 3 minutes of close playoff games.

 

[DarthFed]

Please list the game winning shots he has made in the playoffs. The only one that comes to mind was the one against Chicago.

Please give me any examples you can think of in which he was a dominant scorer in the last 2 or 3 minutes of close playoff games.

He had one vs Orlando and Washington so at least 3 total. As for dominating the last few minutes again check out Detroit game 5 in 2007, he also hit a shot that basically ended it in game 7 vs the Spurs. List me all the buzzer beaters and clutch plays Kobe had in the playoffs over the years.

 

[calitennis127]

He had one vs Orlando and Washington so at least 3 total. As for dominating the last few minutes again check out Detroit game 5 in 2007, he also hit a shot that basically ended it in game 7 vs the Spurs. List me all the buzzer beaters and clutch plays Kobe had in the playoffs over the years.

Oh please, the shot against Orlando was a one-time catch and shoot in a Game 1 at home on a final inbounds play. The play against Washington was against one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA and he got away with a travel. (Come to think of it, both the Orlando shot and the Chicago shot happened off inbounds plays where he didn't have to go 1-on-1 and therefore had less time to think about things.)

The 2007 game against Detroit was great but that was a dominant stretch over a long period, just like Boston Game 6 or Indiana Game 4 in 2012.

I'm talking about standard competitive games against top teams where he is not having an out-of-his-mind day and he has to take over in the final 3 or 4 minutes. He has repeatedly failed in those situations. (I'll get back to you on Kobe though.)

 

[DarthFed]

Oh please, the shot against Orlando was a one-time catch and shoot in a Game 1 at home on a final inbounds play. The play against Washington was against one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA and he got away with a travel. (Come to think of it, both the Orlando shot and the Chicago shot happened off inbounds plays where he didn't have to go 1-on-1 and therefore had less time to think about things.)

The 2007 game against Detroit was great but that was a dominant stretch over a long period, just like Boston Game 6 or Indiana Game 4 in 2012.

I'm talking about standard competitive games against top teams where he is not having an out-of-his-mind day and he has to take over in the final 3 or 4 minutes. He has repeatedly failed in those situations. (I'll get back to you on Kobe though.)

The Detroit game was double OT and he had the last 25 points for the Cavs in that game. But I'm sure you'll come back with something ridiculous haha.

And LOL at trying to discredit the Orlando game winner. We shouldn't count a long contested 3 to win the game because it was a catch and shoot? I also forgot a buzzer beating layup against Indiana in game 1 of the 2013 ECF. I'm guessing that shouldn't count because it was just a layup.

Here's an article on the issue from a few years ago:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sb...ebron-james-michael-jordan-game-winning-shots

I don't agree with the title of the article but it shows some pretty convincing data.

 

[calitennis127]

The Detroit game was double OT and he had the last 25 points for the Cavs in that game. But I'm sure you'll come back with something ridiculous haha.

And LOL at trying to discredit the Orlando game winner. We shouldn't count a long contested 3 to win the game because it was a catch and shoot? I also forgot a buzzer beating layup against Indiana in game 1 of the 2013 ECF. I'm guessing that shouldn't count because it was just a layup.

Here's an article on the issue from a few years ago:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sb...ebron-james-michael-jordan-game-winning-shots

I don't agree with the title of the article but it shows some pretty convincing data.

Darth, there is a lot less pressure with a quick catch-and-shoot before you can even blink than having to go 1-on-1 and do something off the dribble.

And your article focuses strictly on last second shots and makes no mention of the last 2-3 minutes, which is a unique game unto itself. LeBron stinks in that time period compared to both Jordan and Kobe.

 

[DarthFed]

Darth, there is a lot less pressure with a quick catch-and-shoot before you can even blink than having to go 1-on-1 and do something off the dribble.

And your article focuses strictly on last second shots and makes no mention of the last 2-3 minutes, which is a unique game unto itself. LeBron stinks in that time period compared to both Jordan and Kobe.

How the hell is there less pressure on a contested catch and shoot jump shot than a drive to the hoop which can result in a dunk, layup, or free throws. I think you can see how the former is bound to be a much lower percentage play.

And there is literally no reason to continue on with this, I show you examples of LeBron taking over in the last 30 seconds of games and then it turns into what he was doing with 2:42 or 1:18 left on the clock. I'm sure you "remember" Kobe and others being way better in those situations

 

[DarthFed]

Here's another comparison. I'd say this kind of speaks for itself:

http://www.12up.com/posts/4981836-this-stats-show-lebron-is-more-clutch-than-kobe

 

[Federberg]

Ooof Kevin Love breaking his arm? It's going to be tough for the Cavs to get to the finals this year

 

[calitennis127]

How the hell is there less pressure on a contested catch and shoot jump shot than a drive to the hoop which can result in a dunk, layup, or free throws. I think you can see how the former is bound to be a much lower percentage play.

Then you haven't spent much time with a basketball in your hands friend. A lot more can go wrong for you when you're driving or trying to get past someone 1-on-1 rather than just shooting over top of them.

You won't admit that LeBron flopped completely in Game 6 against San Antonio. That final minute was excruciating. And I am saying that as someone who was rooting for LeBron to win that game because I did not want him to get killed in the media and I also cannot stand the Spurs.

 

[DarthFed]

Then you haven't spent much time with a basketball in your hands friend. A lot more can go wrong for you when you're driving or trying to get past someone 1-on-1 rather than just shooting over top of them.

You won't admit that LeBron flopped completely in Game 6 against San Antonio. That final minute was excruciating. And I am saying that as someone who was rooting for LeBron to win that game because I did not want him to get killed in the media and I also cannot stand the Spurs.

I've played plenty of basketball and even if I hadn't it doesn't take an astute observer to realize that a contested catch and shoot 3 is a lot lower percentage than having enough time to drive the ball where a bunch of positive high percentage opportunities can happen. Sure the paint will be packed and the risk of a turnover is higher but I think any player, let alone a locomotive with freak athleticism like LeBron, would much prefer the opportunity to take it to the hole vs a tough catch and shoot.

As for game 6 yes LeBron had a tough final two minutes of that game but he scored something like 25 points after halftime in a do or die situation. And he's had plenty of clutch plays in the final few minutes of games, that criticism that LeBron isn't clutch was more legit early in his career and people just kept running with it even though it's far from true.

 

[kskate2]

Clips send Blake Griffin, Brice Johnson and Willie Reed to Pistons. Clips get Avery Bradley, Tobias Harris, Boban Marjanovic, a protected 1st round pick and a 2019 2nd round pick.

 

[Federberg]

Lol! DF, even you would surely lose respect for Lebron if this were ever to happen right?

 

[Federberg]

just hearing about that has made me lose respect for him utterly...

 

[Federberg]

ok, hopefully Stephen A Smith is right that it's coming from the Dubs side. Totally agree with him though.. if Lebron were to do such a thing his legacy is dust. I must admit I started laughing when I heard he would consider joining the Celtics. Poor Kyrie...