Nadal's gonna be world #1 again!

[DarthFed]

technically speaking, Murray is the same guy and his forehand hasn't changed from that standpoint. His APPROACH with the forehand has improved tremendously though, he is hitting it with authority more often.

Tennis is very mental to say the least, and Murray's approcah to big matches since adopting Lendl has improved dramatically as well. We saw this in his final lost to Roger at Wimbledon in 2012 and then it came full circle at the Olympics game.

nadal biggest fan has a point when it comes to Murray/Nadal match-up but sadly his out of this world rethoric (trolling) makes it a mute point. Murray has always play Rafa TOUGH, the problem was never mental in this case since Murray understood early in his career the only way to beat Rafa was to take it to him which he has done at the slam level. The problem for Murray in this match-up is that at the end of the day his forehand still the weakest shot among the big four (the problem it's technical) and Nadal knows this very well. He can't go DTL the way Novak can and that my friend it's a liability when facing Rafa.

Murray played more aggressively against Nadal than most but I disagree that mentally he is the same. Against Nadal and the others he could easily come apart at the hip a couple years ago and you are not seeing that as much now.

And the forehand is flat out better, he can go bigger on a more consistent basis than he used to. The weak rolling forehand was his biggest problem at Wimbledon until 2012 including the 2010 and 2011 matches vs. Nadal and we've seen what he can do on grass since then.

 

[DarthFed]

Murray looked so timid in the AO final this year. It was the most rapid collapse I've ever seen from him from a position of power in a match. And it began when a feather fell from the rafters. Its hard to believe, but that small delay may have triggered his collapse. I dream of a slam final between Nadal and Murray. Nadal deserves it.

2011 Wimbledon semi was worse, but I'm guessing you'll disagree :snigger

 

[NADAL2005RG]

Murray looked so timid in the AO final this year. It was the most rapid collapse I've ever seen from him from a position of power in a match. And it began when a feather fell from the rafters. Its hard to believe, but that small delay may have triggered his collapse. I dream of a slam final between Nadal and Murray. Nadal deserves it.

2011 Wimbledon semi was worse, but I'm guessing you'll disagree :snigger

Not that it matters whether I disagree or not. Both can correctly be called the biggest collapse of Murray's career. Anyone can take their pick between those 2 matches and be correct. But the details of the AO match, a feather falling and Murray suddenly losing his mind/momentum is something else. It certainly represents more of a psychological shortcoming than seen in the Wimbledon match (when Nadal simply did what he usually does - everything better than Murray).

 

[DarthFed]

I'd say Murray missing an overhead and barely putting a ball in play after represents a bigger psychological shortcoming than AO was. And Rafa does everything better than Murray?? Backhand??? Return???? Let me guess, Rafa serves better than Isner and is better at net than Sampras. I bet the only way he loses is if he is injured or just wants to conserve energy

 

[NADAL2005RG]

Meaning Nadal is a better baseliner than Murray. And Nadal is also a better net player than Murray (as the greatest net player ever, John McEnroe, has said more than once). Nadal is also a better server than Murray. Ask Nadal's opponents, they have more trouble breaking Nadal than they do Murray. Nadal was only broken 4 times at the 2013 US Open and 5 times at the 2010 US Open. You can say his baseline game is why he holds serve so great, but Murray also wins most his points from the baseline rather than free points with the serve anyway. And Nadal's actual serve has frequently been referred to as "having a lot of junk on it" and even the 2nd serve is difficult for opponents to control the return of. Murray's serve is a lot simpler. If you want to break down the baseline comparison into wings, Murray has the more consistent backhand, although Nadal's backhand generates more winners when he's on fire than Murray's backhand. Nadal's forehand, streets ahead obviously. But the baseline game isn't measured by one wing or the other anyway, its about the total package. Nadal is a notch above Murray from the baseline.

 

[DarthFed]

Meaning Nadal is a better baseliner than Murray. And Nadal is also a better net player than Murray (as the greatest net player ever, John McEnroe, has said more than once). Nadal is also a better server than Murray. Ask Nadal's opponents, they have more trouble breaking Nadal than they do Murray. Nadal was only broken 4 times at the 2013 US Open and 5 times at the 2010 US Open. You can say his baseline game is why he holds serve so great, but Murray also wins most his points from the baseline rather than free points with the serve anyway. And Nadal's actual serve has frequently been referred to as "having a lot of junk on it" and even the 2nd serve is difficult for opponents to control the return of. Murray's serve is a lot simpler. If you want to break down the baseline comparison into wings, Murray has the more consistent backhand, although Nadal's backhand generates more winners when he's on fire than Murray's backhand. Nadal's forehand, streets ahead obviously. But the baseline game isn't measured by one wing or the other anyway, its about the total package. Nadal is a notch above Murray from the baseline.

You said that Nadal does everything better than Murray, and that naturally implies you are referring to every shot in tennis. Murray's backhand is way above Rafa's and just below Nole who probably has the best backhand in history. Rafa is a better baseliner overall and I'd say his serve is better mostly because of the 2nd serve (Murray has a much bigger first serve). Murray also is a better returner and is just as good at net if not better. J-Mac is Rafa's #1 fan and gets greatly carried away when talking about anything he does. Rafa is no longer allergic at net and it certainly isn't a weakness like it is for Djokovic, but he is generally there for easy putaways.

 

[Iona16]

Meaning Nadal is a better baseliner than Murray. And Nadal is also a better net player than Murray (as the greatest net player ever, John McEnroe, has said more than once). Nadal is also a better server than Murray. Ask Nadal's opponents, they have more trouble breaking Nadal than they do Murray. Nadal was only broken 4 times at the 2013 US Open and 5 times at the 2010 US Open. You can say his baseline game is why he holds serve so great, but Murray also wins most his points from the baseline rather than free points with the serve anyway. And Nadal's actual serve has frequently been referred to as "having a lot of junk on it" and even the 2nd serve is difficult for opponents to control the return of. Murray's serve is a lot simpler. If you want to break down the baseline comparison into wings, Murray has the more consistent backhand, although Nadal's backhand generates more winners when he's on fire than Murray's backhand. Nadal's forehand, streets ahead obviously. But the baseline game isn't measured by one wing or the other anyway, its about the total package. Nadal is a notch above Murray from the baseline.

Oh please, if I spoke nicely to Mac he'd say I was the best net player in the world. He changes his mind like underwear.

I honestly thought I had seen the worst fan boys in tennis but you really do take the biscuit.

 

[NADAL2005RG]

Nadal's backhand is more of a threat than Murray's backhand. That's why I consider it a better backhand. Now, if Nadal's backhand was inconsistent, then you could dismiss that. But Nadal's backhand is not inconsistent (its just not as consistent as Murray's backhand). And Nadal has the best backhand passing shot I've seen on the tour. And the backhand slice was the most important shot Nadal played in this year's US Open final. Nadal breaks the opponent's serve more than Murray does. Nadal holds serve better than Murray does. Nadal is a better net player than Murray. You want to argue against that, that's up to you, but has no bearing on what others believe. I couldn't care less if you don't agree with me and McEnroe.

 

[DarthFed]

Nadal's backhand is more of a threat than Murray's backhand. That's why I consider it a better backhand. Now, if Nadal's backhand was inconsistent, then you could dismiss that. But Nadal's backhand is not inconsistent (its just not as consistent as Murray's backhand). And Nadal has the best backhand passing shot I've seen on the tour. And the backhand slice was the most important shot Nadal played in this year's US Open final. Nadal breaks the opponent's serve more than Murray does. Nadal holds serve better than Murray does. Nadal is a better net player than Murray. You want to argue against that, that's up to you, but has no bearing on what others believe. I couldn't care less if you don't agree with me and McEnroe.

And I could care less what you believe. You are so misinformed and trollish that it is amusing. You and Rafa's mother are the only ones who would take his backhand over Murray's. If Rafa breaks more often in his career a lot of that is weighted towards the astronomic rate he breaks on clay where serving is most neutralized. I'd imagine Murray breaks more on hards and grass despite being worse from the baseline.

 

[britbox]

I'd give Murray the edge on a net game also, although not by much... Nadal is underrated in that department.

 

[calitennis127]

Nadal's backhand is more of a threat than Murray's backhand. That's why I consider it a better backhand. Now, if Nadal's backhand was inconsistent, then you could dismiss that. But Nadal's backhand is not inconsistent (its just not as consistent as Murray's backhand). And Nadal has the best backhand passing shot I've seen on the tour. And the backhand slice was the most important shot Nadal played in this year's US Open final. Nadal breaks the opponent's serve more than Murray does. Nadal holds serve better than Murray does. Nadal is a better net player than Murray. You want to argue against that, that's up to you, but has no bearing on what others believe. I couldn't care less if you don't agree with me and McEnroe.

It's well overdue that I address you. You are absolutely clueless.

Nadal's backhand is generally a very neutral shot, and compared with the better backhands in the game, it is pretty lame, aside from the rare occasions when he steps in and goes for a huge cut and executes it. That happens pretty rarely for all the hours he spends on court in his long, grind-it-out matches.

Murray has a better backhand and has a much higher ceiling for attacking tennis than Nadal does.

You don't even understand why Nadal wins. You tout him for BS reasons. You seriously think that he wins the significant events against top opponents because his game is better, which is a laughable position. His style of pulling off cheap, weasel-like victories like he did against Janowicz in Montreal, Federer in Cincinnati, and Djokovic at Montreal and the US Open owes to much different factors than you cite, and also certainly factors that you do not understand.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Nadal's backhand is more of a threat than Murray's backhand. That's why I consider it a better backhand. Now, if Nadal's backhand was inconsistent, then you could dismiss that. But Nadal's backhand is not inconsistent (its just not as consistent as Murray's backhand). And Nadal has the best backhand passing shot I've seen on the tour. And the backhand slice was the most important shot Nadal played in this year's US Open final. Nadal breaks the opponent's serve more than Murray does. Nadal holds serve better than Murray does. Nadal is a better net player than Murray. You want to argue against that, that's up to you, but has no bearing on what others believe. I couldn't care less if you don't agree with me and McEnroe.

It's well overdue that I address you. You are absolutely clueless.

Nadal's backhand is generally a very neutral shot, and compared with the better backhands in the game, it is pretty lame, aside from the rare occasions when he steps in and goes for a huge cut and executes it. That happens pretty rarely for all the hours he spends on court in his long, grind-it-out matches.

Murray has a better backhand and has a much higher ceiling for attacking tennis than Nadal does.

You don't even understand why Nadal wins. You tout him for BS reasons. You seriously think that he wins the significant events against top opponents because his game is better, which is a laughable position. His style of pulling off cheap, weasel-like victories like he did against Janowicz in Montreal, Federer in Cincinnati, and Djokovic at Montreal and the US Open owes to much different factors than you cite, and also certainly factors that you do not understand.

The first two paragraphs are Fact(Rafa backhand is generally a neutral shot, there is some validity) but you totally loose creditability with your last paragraph which is pure Fiction and utter nonsense.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Nadal's backhand is more of a threat than Murray's backhand. That's why I consider it a better backhand. Now, if Nadal's backhand was inconsistent, then you could dismiss that. But Nadal's backhand is not inconsistent (its just not as consistent as Murray's backhand). And Nadal has the best backhand passing shot I've seen on the tour. And the backhand slice was the most important shot Nadal played in this year's US Open final. Nadal breaks the opponent's serve more than Murray does. Nadal holds serve better than Murray does. Nadal is a better net player than Murray. You want to argue against that, that's up to you, but has no bearing on what others believe. I couldn't care less if you don't agree with me and McEnroe.

And the backhand slice was the most important shot Nadal played in this year's US Open final

This statement is true and has been over looked. Rafa's backhand slice has been one of his most improved strokes over the past few years. Rafa's strategy was to slice it low to Djoker's backhand which stayed low and out of his high strike zone.

As for Rafa's net play, it has improved tremendously. I think its hard to compare Rafa's net game to Murray because either player rarely attacks the net. John McEnroe is smitten with Rafa's soft hands at the net and how well he places his volleys. Does that mean that Rafa has the best net game, no but it means that his effectiveness at the net is pretty exceptional.

 

[DarthFed]

Nadal's backhand is more of a threat than Murray's backhand. That's why I consider it a better backhand. Now, if Nadal's backhand was inconsistent, then you could dismiss that. But Nadal's backhand is not inconsistent (its just not as consistent as Murray's backhand). And Nadal has the best backhand passing shot I've seen on the tour. And the backhand slice was the most important shot Nadal played in this year's US Open final. Nadal breaks the opponent's serve more than Murray does. Nadal holds serve better than Murray does. Nadal is a better net player than Murray. You want to argue against that, that's up to you, but has no bearing on what others believe. I couldn't care less if you don't agree with me and McEnroe.

And the backhand slice was the most important shot Nadal played in this year's US Open final

This statement is true and has been over looked. Rafa's backhand slice has been one of his most improved strokes over the past few years. Rafa's strategy was to slice it low to Djoker's backhand which stayed low and out of his high strike zone.

As for Rafa's net play, it has improved tremendously. I think its hard to compare Rafa's net game to Murray because either player rarely attacks the net. John McEnroe is smitten with Rafa's soft hands at the net and how well he places his volleys. Does that mean that Rafa has the best net game, no but it means that his effectiveness at the net is pretty exceptional.

AP I have seen you and others criticize Rafa's slice and for good reason. It is a sitting duck that usually allows his opponent to immediately put him on the run. If Rafa had success doing it at the USO final that really speaks to how erratic Novak was more than anything. Usually it ain't working vs. Nole or anyone for that matter.

 

[Kieran]

It worked very well in the US Open final. He got great depth on it when he needed, and a spiteful low bounce...

 

[DarthFed]

Lower than normal, that's the most I will give you. It also should be noted that Nole in general doesn't handle slice well...unless it sits up like Rafa's usually does.

 

[the AntiPusher]

It worked very well in the US Open final. He got great depth on it when he needed, and a spiteful low bounce...

Yes Darth Fed .. I have been critical of Rafa's slice in the past.. However as Kieran also agreed.. Rafa slice did work in the US Open final. I don't think Rafa will ever be a natural slicing the ball like ala Johnny Mac but it can add be effective at times.

 

[huntingyou]

Nadal's slice when used properly serve as a rythm destroyer since his topspin off the forehand couple with the flatter nature of his CC backhand can really mess with the opponents timing. Like everything with Rafa, his slice can be a killer when he has momentun behind it that usually comes after successful match play in bunches.

darth like always, explains Novak's trouble in the final with that shot from a negative perspective instead of giving credit where is due. Similar to his claim than Murray it's a better returner than Rafa when is Rafa the one who has led the tour many times over in most return stats. (Murray's actual return stroke it's superior to Rafa but his overall return game is not)

and no, clay doesn't skewed anything because last time I check, tennis is being play on clay. Rafa is number 2 ALL TIME behind Coria on return games won.....the same goes BP convertion, 1st and 2nd serve points won.

The only thing Murray does clearly better than Rafa it's his world class backhand; including the return stroke as well. His first serve when it goes in it's superior as well....too bad it's below 60%.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Nadal's slice when used properly serve as a rythm destroyer since his topspin off the forehand couple with the flatter nature of his CC backhand can really mess with the opponents timing. Like everything with Rafa, his slice can be a killer when he has momentun behind it that usually comes after successful match play in bunches.

darth like always, explains Novak's trouble in the final with that shot from a negative perspective instead of giving credit where is due. Similar to his claim than Murray it's a better returner than Rafa when is Rafa the one who has led the tour many times over in most return stats. (Murray's actual return stroke it's superior to Rafa but his overall return game is not)

and no, clay doesn't skewed anything because last time I check, tennis is being play on clay. Rafa is number 2 ALL TIME behind Coria on return games won.....the same goes BP convertion, 1st and 2nd serve points won.

The only thing Murray does clearly better than Rafa it's his world class backhand; including the return stroke as well. His first serve when it goes in it's superior as well....too bad it's below 60%.

Excellent post HU, u da Man

 

[DarthFed]

Nadal's slice when used properly serve as a rythm destroyer since his topspin off the forehand couple with the flatter nature of his CC backhand can really mess with the opponents timing. Like everything with Rafa, his slice can be a killer when he has momentun behind it that usually comes after successful match play in bunches.

darth like always, explains Novak's trouble in the final with that shot from a negative perspective instead of giving credit where is due. Similar to his claim than Murray it's a better returner than Rafa when is Rafa the one who has led the tour many times over in most return stats. (Murray's actual return stroke it's superior to Rafa but his overall return game is not)

and no, clay doesn't skewed anything because last time I check, tennis is being play on clay. Rafa is number 2 ALL TIME behind Coria on return games won.....the same goes BP convertion, 1st and 2nd serve points won.

The only thing Murray does clearly better than Rafa it's his world class backhand; including the return stroke as well. His first serve when it goes in it's superior as well....too bad it's below 60%.

Rafa's slice has never ever been a killer. We will just agree to disagree there. He does use it to mix it up vs. Nole to change the cross court forehand to Nadal's backhand exchanges that Nole has been successful in over the years. The slice changes it up but it is rarely neutralizing the rallies.

Murray's return of serve is better, that doesn't mean Murray breaks more often than Rafa. You've always had a problem of separating this for God knows what reason. Rafa probably holds serve at a similar rate to Roger and Roddick the last 5 years but only a fool would say his serve is as good/better than them. Rafa breaks more often than Murray because he is a better baseliner. Murray can be more aggressive and he is getting more back in play (though they rarely keep that as a statistic). Murray is the 2nd best returner out there and same with his backhand (part of the reason he is very very similar to Djokovic style and ability wise).

And of course clay counts but my point stands as serve and return is generally neutralized there. It is pretty much all baseline tennis and Murray is awful on clay whereas Rafa can only be challenged by one player.