Nadal Would Have Been Crucified...

Federberg

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If you say so.. Speaking as an observer.. and admittedly not a fan... it seems to me every loss of his is due to an injury. I even tongue in cheek asked if he'd been playing hurt during his recent Dolgo loss :D It's no surprise that people (and not just on these boards) ask if Rafa's ever lost when he's not injured. Even pundits writing after Rafa losses are very specific in having to clarify that his movement looked fine. Don't want to tread over ground we've gone over many many many times... But I recall that match against Soderling. I watched that match.. and not once during it did I think that Rafa was impaired. Actually I couldn't get my head round why he kept on hitting short balls. But it seems to be conventional wisdom amongst his fans that he was clearly injured. I may not be a fan, but that does't make me lose my critical reasoning. If he was injured I would say it, if his movement had been impaired I would acknowledge it. Sorry... didn't see it. No revisionism changes that. But the guys ego couldn't tolerate a narrative where he's human and simply had an off day. Pitiful...
 

Kieran

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Really? You think he skipped Wimbledon that year because of his ego?

You read the posts of Rafa fans here and we're usually first to toast the opponent. We never mention injuries. Like I say, give a dog a bad name...
 

Front242

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There are more Rafa fans than just here...you should read the garbage they spew on tennis.com.
 

Kieran

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Front242 said:
There are more Rafa fans than just here...you should read the garbage they spew on tennis.com.

Buddy, there's fans of all shades who spew garbage. You should go on RogerFederer.com, and so on. Fans are the same everywhere, no matter who they support...
 

DarthFed

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Kieran said:
Really? You think he skipped Wimbledon that year because of his ego?

You read the posts of Rafa fans here and we're usually first to toast the opponent. We never mention injuries. Like I say, give a dog a bad name...

:laydownlaughing And I walked across the Atlantic today.
 

Front242

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Kieran said:
Front242 said:
There are more Rafa fans than just here...you should read the garbage they spew on tennis.com.

Buddy, there's fans of all shades who spew garbage. You should go on RogerFederer.com, and so on. Fans are the same everywhere, no matter who they support...

Not really. Take the h2h for example and read the garbage from Nadal fans there. A fan of neither player as an observer could tell you easily that around 10 of those wins for Nadal have come since Federer was well over the hill but these Nadal fans on tennis.com and other boards don't care for logic and simply spout crap like "how can Federer be considered the GOAT with a losing record like this". I'm sure if Nadal was pushing 33 now things would be a bit less skewed but they're too dumb to concede this. Seems to me the Nadal fans on tennis.com anyway spew a lot more garbage than fans of other players.

Naturally there's crap from fans of all players but some unbelievable T-Rex sized turds from Nadal fans on other boards that I've read posts on.
 

Kieran

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Come on buddy, let's not go there... :Lolz:
 

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federberg said:
haha! Ok. But let's get it straight.. Rafa's (and I include his camp in this) accomplishments as an excuse maker in comparison to Fed is a gap as wide as Rafa's ranking compared to... Darcis :D

bobvance said:
Did Roger really complain last year when he was injured or is he mostly attributing his recent success to being healthy? These are two different things. I'm not saying Roger is the most stoic player in history with respect to injuries, but Rafa is definitely in a league of his own.

I quote you here BobV, because you ask about Roger complaining, and I will say, no, but his fans were.

federberg said:
If you say so.. Speaking as an observer.. and admittedly not a fan... it seems to me every loss of his is due to an injury. I even tongue in cheek asked if he'd been playing hurt during his recent Dolgo loss :D It's no surprise that people (and not just on these boards) ask if Rafa's ever lost when he's not injured. Even pundits writing after Rafa losses are very specific in having to clarify that his movement looked fine. Don't want to tread over ground we've gone over many many many times... But I recall that match against Soderling. I watched that match.. and not once during it did I think that Rafa was impaired. Actually I couldn't get my head round why he kept on hitting short balls. But it seems to be conventional wisdom amongst his fans that he was clearly injured. I may not be a fan, but that does't make me lose my critical reasoning. If he was injured I would say it, if his movement had been impaired I would acknowledge it. Sorry... didn't see it. No revisionism changes that. But the guys ego couldn't tolerate a narrative where he's human and simply had an off day. Pitiful...

Alright, I'll jump into the fray to make this point: there is a difference between fans making excuses and players making them. Federer fans put all of the lousy 2013 down to his back, and have been doing so for a long time. In fairness, the commentators are talking about it a lot now, and Roger himself has addressed it, as we see. But it doesn't change the fact that Federer fans have been using the back as an excuse for poor play, even though it really never took Roger out of competition. (Whether that was wise or not is a separate question.)

However, when Rafa, who is more injury-plagued, has to go down for a period of time due to injury, folks like you, federberg, doubt the validity of it, even if you can see knee strapping for months, and hear reports of progressive tendonitis. Rafa has acknowledged being beaten by better players on the day. You conflate the arguments we have between rival camps, after the fact, with what a player actually says. Also, you seem incapable of holding both ideas in your head that one player, (Soderling, Rosol, for example,) played a great match, and that Rafa may not have been tip-top. It still doesn't mean he would otherwise have won those matches. But it means he was forced to stop and face a deteriorating problem.

It seems the height of irony to me that the one injury Nadal-detractors have been able to accept as valid, his back, is also the one that hasn't taken him out of the game…"only" lost him a Slam, and maybe has hobbled him a bit of late. But what can Fed fans say, since they buy into Roger's back issues as a valid "excuse?" :cool:
 

Front242

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Moxie629 said:
federberg said:
haha! Ok. But let's get it straight.. Rafa's (and I include his camp in this) accomplishments as an excuse maker in comparison to Fed is a gap as wide as Rafa's ranking compared to... Darcis :D

bobvance said:
Did Roger really complain last year when he was injured or is he mostly attributing his recent success to being healthy? These are two different things. I'm not saying Roger is the most stoic player in history with respect to injuries, but Rafa is definitely in a league of his own.

I quote you here BobV, because you ask about Roger complaining, and I will say, no, but his fans were.

federberg said:
If you say so.. Speaking as an observer.. and admittedly not a fan... it seems to me every loss of his is due to an injury. I even tongue in cheek asked if he'd been playing hurt during his recent Dolgo loss :D It's no surprise that people (and not just on these boards) ask if Rafa's ever lost when he's not injured. Even pundits writing after Rafa losses are very specific in having to clarify that his movement looked fine. Don't want to tread over ground we've gone over many many many times... But I recall that match against Soderling. I watched that match.. and not once during it did I think that Rafa was impaired. Actually I couldn't get my head round why he kept on hitting short balls. But it seems to be conventional wisdom amongst his fans that he was clearly injured. I may not be a fan, but that does't make me lose my critical reasoning. If he was injured I would say it, if his movement had been impaired I would acknowledge it. Sorry... didn't see it. No revisionism changes that. But the guys ego couldn't tolerate a narrative where he's human and simply had an off day. Pitiful...

Alright, I'll jump into the fray to make this point: there is a difference between fans making excuses and players making them. Federer fans put all of the lousy 2013 down to his back, and have been doing so for a long time. In fairness, the commentators are talking about it a lot now, and Roger himself has addressed it, as we see. But it doesn't change the fact that Federer fans have been using the back as an excuse for poor play, even though it really never took Roger out of competition. (Whether that was wise or not is a separate question.)

However, when Rafa, who is more injury-plagued, has to go down for a period of time due to injury, folks like you, federberg, doubt the validity of it, even if you can see knee strapping for months, and hear reports of progressive tendonitis. Rafa has acknowledged being beaten by better players on the day. You conflate the arguments we have between rival camps, after the fact, with what a player actually says. Also, you seem incapable of holding both ideas in your head that one player, (Soderling, Rosol, for example,) played a great match, and that Rafa may not have been tip-top. It still doesn't mean he would otherwise have won those matches. But it means he was forced to stop and face a deteriorating problem.

It seems the height of irony to me that the one injury Nadal-detractors have been able to accept as valid, his back, is also the one that hasn't taken him out of the game…"only" lost him a Slam, and maybe has hobbled him a bit of late. But what can Fed fans say, since they buy into Roger's back issues as a valid "excuse?" :cool:

^ Re the bolded part above, that's news to me. I certainly did not and do not put down all of 2013 due to his back. He was great at the AO and the end of the year. He himself said it bothered him at IW 2013 and clearly it did as some balls very close to him he didn't even run down against Nadal. Then he took 7 weeks off and by his own admission was ok then. He seemed 100% fine to me at Wimbledon and just lost to a guy playing a really great match. Can't comment on the match against Robredo at the USO 'cos I didn't see it (thankfully) but seems he just played a really bad match. So that leaves IW when his back started annoying him and a few matches at mickey mouse tournaments on clay in summer. The rest of the year his movement was clearly getting better or he wouldn't have done so well.

It likely affected his confidence for sure but physically only a few matches did he look rigid and stiff. And it seems Nadal's back is fine now too and maybe it's a similar confidence thing that you're unsure about certain movements that tend to twist your back, etc so you play a bit more cautiously at times but nothing actually ailing you as such. But naturally, doing so means you're not in the best position to win tough matches.
 

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^ And you can add Murray also in the same vein of confidence hit 'cos he's unsure about certain movements that could potentially flare it up again but not in pain as such, just playing a bit cautiously.
 

Front242

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And finally, following on from that...isn't it clear that Federer is moving SO MUCH better the last few months compared to last year? So clearly he wasn't making any excuse for an imaginary back problem. Either that or he's drinking glucosamine, fish oils and Redbull by the gallon before every match as he's moving a whole lot better this year.
 

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Front242 said:
Moxie629 said:
federberg said:
haha! Ok. But let's get it straight.. Rafa's (and I include his camp in this) accomplishments as an excuse maker in comparison to Fed is a gap as wide as Rafa's ranking compared to... Darcis :D

bobvance said:
Did Roger really complain last year when he was injured or is he mostly attributing his recent success to being healthy? These are two different things. I'm not saying Roger is the most stoic player in history with respect to injuries, but Rafa is definitely in a league of his own.

I quote you here BobV, because you ask about Roger complaining, and I will say, no, but his fans were.

federberg said:
If you say so.. Speaking as an observer.. and admittedly not a fan... it seems to me every loss of his is due to an injury. I even tongue in cheek asked if he'd been playing hurt during his recent Dolgo loss :D It's no surprise that people (and not just on these boards) ask if Rafa's ever lost when he's not injured. Even pundits writing after Rafa losses are very specific in having to clarify that his movement looked fine. Don't want to tread over ground we've gone over many many many times... But I recall that match against Soderling. I watched that match.. and not once during it did I think that Rafa was impaired. Actually I couldn't get my head round why he kept on hitting short balls. But it seems to be conventional wisdom amongst his fans that he was clearly injured. I may not be a fan, but that does't make me lose my critical reasoning. If he was injured I would say it, if his movement had been impaired I would acknowledge it. Sorry... didn't see it. No revisionism changes that. But the guys ego couldn't tolerate a narrative where he's human and simply had an off day. Pitiful...

Alright, I'll jump into the fray to make this point: there is a difference between fans making excuses and players making them. Federer fans put all of the lousy 2013 down to his back, and have been doing so for a long time. In fairness, the commentators are talking about it a lot now, and Roger himself has addressed it, as we see. But it doesn't change the fact that Federer fans have been using the back as an excuse for poor play, even though it really never took Roger out of competition. (Whether that was wise or not is a separate question.)

However, when Rafa, who is more injury-plagued, has to go down for a period of time due to injury, folks like you, federberg, doubt the validity of it, even if you can see knee strapping for months, and hear reports of progressive tendonitis. Rafa has acknowledged being beaten by better players on the day. You conflate the arguments we have between rival camps, after the fact, with what a player actually says. Also, you seem incapable of holding both ideas in your head that one player, (Soderling, Rosol, for example,) played a great match, and that Rafa may not have been tip-top. It still doesn't mean he would otherwise have won those matches. But it means he was forced to stop and face a deteriorating problem.

It seems the height of irony to me that the one injury Nadal-detractors have been able to accept as valid, his back, is also the one that hasn't taken him out of the game…"only" lost him a Slam, and maybe has hobbled him a bit of late. But what can Fed fans say, since they buy into Roger's back issues as a valid "excuse?" :cool:

^ Re the bolded part above, that's news to me. I certainly did not and do not put down all of 2013 due to his back. He was great at the AO and the end of the year. He himself said it bothered him at IW 2013 and clearly it did as some balls very close to him he didn't even run down against Nadal. Then he took 7 weeks off and by his own admission was ok then. He seemed 100% fine to me at Wimbledon and just lost to a guy playing a really great match. Can't comment on the match against Robredo at the USO 'cos I didn't see it (thankfully) but seems he just played a really bad match. So that leaves IW when his back started annoying him and a few matches at mickey mouse tournaments on clay in summer. The rest of the year his movement was clearly getting better or he wouldn't have done so well.

It likely affected his confidence for sure but physically only a few matches did he look rigid and stiff. And it seems Nadal's back is fine now too and maybe it's a similar confidence thing that you're unsure about certain movements that tend to twist your back, etc so you play a bit more cautiously at times but nothing actually ailing you as such. But naturally doing so, means you're not in the best position to win tough matches.

Really? Well, it might not have been you, but somebody sure was putting it out there, because I don't follow Federer attentively, and I was surely aware of a back problem. There was much watching of compression shirts, etc. From what I could tell, it was a monitoring of a low-grade problem, the same as the mono in 2008. Which I don't mind. I never said he didn't have mono, or a back issue. I'm just saying, specific to this thread, it's ironic that some fed fans (Darth being one,) will retrospectively (or even at the time,) sight impairment in Federer as reasons he lost RG and Wimby 2008, and the reason last year was so poor, and yet, that's not an "excuse," even though he played all events. However, for Rafa, injury that causes him to bow out of major tournaments, is. I'm not saying you're that guy, Front, but tell me you haven't seen it?
 

Front242

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I must admit I haven't seen any Federer fans blaming all 2013 on back issues, no. Not even one. How could one possibly attribute a whole year to back problems when he reached the AO semi and did very well in the indoor season? Sure, he didn't win the WTF and his match against Nadal there was poor but that wasn't to do with his back which seemed fine by then. He just didn't play well.

More than anything, having recurring back issues impedes your training and I'm sure Murray also couldn't train 100% since his surgery so he's not as sharp as he usually is but his back is likely fine they say since the surgery. But then maybe it isn't. No one knows except him. But going back to Federer, no I've not seen one single person anywhere write off Federer's whole year due to his back.

And the point you made about mono...well, mono is an illness that seriously affects your energy levels so I'm pretty sure that affects how you're able to train for a very physical sport. Robin Soderling's case has been so bad he couldn't get off the couch! I'm not claiming anything about losses that year other than pointing out the ones to lower grade players at the start of year and clearly he had more of them than usual that year...so clearly not being able to train due to fatigue is an issue. That's not an excuse, that's reality. Oleg McNoLeg isn't going to win the NYC Marathon either.
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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Front242 said:
JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
"T-Rex sized turds" ?..its an alarming image.

Hint: They're big :cool:

yep, the T-Rex is big and therefore the turds are big..

Because no one ever said "oh looky over there at that T-Rex..Isn't it tiny", as they ambled to the shops to buy some Stegosaurus steaks, or a pack of one Brontosaurus burgers.
 

Front242

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JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
Front242 said:
JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
"T-Rex sized turds" ?..its an alarming image.

Hint: They're big :cool:

yep, the T-Rex is big and therefore the turds are big..

Because no one ever said "oh looky over there at that T-Rex..Isn't it tiny", as they ambled to the shops to buy some Stegosaurus steaks, or a pack of one Brontosaurus burgers.

:s mmmmkay, drugs are bad. mmmmkay :D
 

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Can we also say that, if somebody made a thread about Novak's parents being annoying, I wouldn't (nor would most fans) feel the need to invent narratives of other people's parents being consistently annoying, or to say that Fed, is full of himself, doesn't usually bring about screams that other players behave just like Fed occasionally. Nobody talks about injuries as much or as often as Rafa. It's his main public flaw. They all have them, but don't tell me they all have the same one. Rafa is not a victim, he is a super rich athlete (likeable guy, sure, nothing wrong with him having money either, but what's the big deal with not liking this aspect of him). I also don't see it as a double standard, people get injured and it is fair to bring it up, but rafa always seems injured even when it is not apparent in his game (except for to rafa fans). It's also not like it was a mystery that Fed was having back problems, he just didn't go on about, and he mentioned it again pretty innocuously in the OP's article. It would be a double standard if Fed talked about his back after many of his losses over the last say... 10 or so years, but nobody ever brought it up. Can anyone seriously say Federer talks about injuries on anywhere near the scale Rafa does?