Mr. Andy Murray have won just 1 maters after joining with Mr. Lendl ( Two years)

Emma

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Kieran said:
Emma said:
Wimbledon was Federer first Major and it starts end of June and ends first week of July. Federer turned 22 next month in August. Was he closer to 21 or 22?

He was 21, exactly. Not close to 21. He was 21.


Emma said:
I think you are missing the entire point, Kieran. Sampras wasn't sitting idly in between 1990 and 1992 after winning his first Major. He was growing as a pro-player and it plays a big part in becoming a great player.

Similarly, after Rafa turned pro, all those years in between when Murray still hadn't turned pro, he was growing as a player and it's crucial for any player in order to become great. Murray took his growing time much later. Whether he was 19 or 22 and whether he was only 1 year younger is completely irrelevant.


I agree with this, and this is why I think you're selling Rafa short. Players have to develop, but Rafa has still been an elite player since 2005, and he peaked in 2008. That's a long time of great tennis. Consistency too! Even taking seven months off injured, he still won more slams than either Murray or Novak over the last two seasons.

By the way, I'm not denigrating Andy and I hope he has a great career, but...you know what I mean! ;)

That is damning evidence. ;) I will still say he was almost 22. :p

When both Nole and Murray started their career, Nadal already had 2 Slams. And he had 2001 to 2005 pro-time to grow as a player.

And it wasn't a huge surprise that Nadal would win RG this year. Yes, he did win USO but Murray was already mentally and physically exhausted after winning Wimbledon. And Nole had been very consistent since 2011. Nadal got to rest for 7 months so he was by far the fresher player of the 3. We'll see how things go next year when all will be on equal grounds - starting from AO.
 

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Emma said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Just a quick reminder that Nadal made the Wimbledon final five times in a row (well, he didn't in 2009, because he didn't play, but you get the point).

It is also good to notice that at the time, the only contender Nadal had to truly deal with was Federer and it allowed him to make the final successive times. He isn't doing that right now. Hasn't done so since 2009.

We should also notice that Murray didn't play 2007 Wimbledon due to wrist injury so that should square things off.

Hasn't done so since 2011 to be exact. I'm sure Murray would've put the fear of God in Federer and Nadal in 2007
 

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DarthFed said:
Emma said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Just a quick reminder that Nadal made the Wimbledon final five times in a row (well, he didn't in 2009, because he didn't play, but you get the point).

It is also good to notice that at the time, the only contender Nadal had to truly deal with was Federer and it allowed him to make the final successive times. He isn't doing that right now. Hasn't done so since 2009.

We should also notice that Murray didn't play 2007 Wimbledon due to wrist injury so that should square things off.

Hasn't done so since 2011 to be exact. I'm sure Murray would've put the fear of God in Federer and Nadal in 2007

He wouldn't have but it matters. Confidence grows with each major tournament.
 

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Emma said:
DarthFed said:
Emma said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Just a quick reminder that Nadal made the Wimbledon final five times in a row (well, he didn't in 2009, because he didn't play, but you get the point).

It is also good to notice that at the time, the only contender Nadal had to truly deal with was Federer and it allowed him to make the final successive times. He isn't doing that right now. Hasn't done so since 2009.

We should also notice that Murray didn't play 2007 Wimbledon due to wrist injury so that should square things off.

Hasn't done so since 2011 to be exact. I'm sure Murray would've put the fear of God in Federer and Nadal in 2007

He wouldn't have but it matters. Confidence grows with each major tournament.

No, confidence grows with big wins, it can actually be demolished with bad losses. See Roger in 08, Rafa at end of 09, Nole for much of this summer, etc.
 

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Emma said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Just a quick reminder that Nadal made the Wimbledon final five times in a row (well, he didn't in 2009, because he didn't play, but you get the point).

It is also good to notice that at the time, the only contender Nadal had to truly deal with was Federer and it allowed him to make the final successive times. He isn't doing that right now. Hasn't done so since 2009.

We should also notice that Murray didn't play 2007 Wimbledon due to wrist injury so that should square things off.

Might want to revise those facts. Nadal won the tournament in 2010, and reached the final in 2011. Beating Murray on the way both times. Murray in 2007 was nowhere near ready so that's a moot point.
 

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DarthFed said:
Emma said:
DarthFed said:
Emma said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Just a quick reminder that Nadal made the Wimbledon final five times in a row (well, he didn't in 2009, because he didn't play, but you get the point).

It is also good to notice that at the time, the only contender Nadal had to truly deal with was Federer and it allowed him to make the final successive times. He isn't doing that right now. Hasn't done so since 2009.

We should also notice that Murray didn't play 2007 Wimbledon due to wrist injury so that should square things off.

Hasn't done so since 2011 to be exact. I'm sure Murray would've put the fear of God in Federer and Nadal in 2007

He wouldn't have but it matters. Confidence grows with each major tournament.

No, confidence grows with big wins, it can actually be demolished with bad losses. See Roger in 08, Rafa at end of 09, Nole for much of this summer, etc.

Confidence grows with each win on any surface. But you are assuming Rafa would have won Wimbledon had he played. The chances of Nadal winning Wimbledon lie somewhere between 1% to 100% and never 100%. If he were to participate in the tournament, only then it would have been either 100% (because he won) or 0% (because he lost). So you are simply speculating that he would have won had he played. He could have lost too by the same token.
 

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Having said all that, neither Murray nor Nole will surpass Nadal in terms of total results. So obviously, Nadal is by far the better player right now and will probably always be (even when I strongly feel both Nole and Murray more complete than Nadal; but then again, Nadal has a very strong mental side to him and he basically rules on clay). But on an individual surface both have the element to surpass and establish better records than Rafa. For example, Murray on grass and Nole on hard. Actually, Nole already has a better record on hard than Nadal. So if you understand the point then no need to feel threatened by any of this, really.

Actually, when all ends, Murray may have better records both on grass and hard than Nadal. But Nadal obviously has overachieved on clay and that always takes the bulk of it.
 

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Emma said:
DarthFed said:
Emma said:
DarthFed said:
Emma said:
It is also good to notice that at the time, the only contender Nadal had to truly deal with was Federer and it allowed him to make the final successive times. He isn't doing that right now. Hasn't done so since 2009.

We should also notice that Murray didn't play 2007 Wimbledon due to wrist injury so that should square things off.

Hasn't done so since 2011 to be exact. I'm sure Murray would've put the fear of God in Federer and Nadal in 2007

He wouldn't have but it matters. Confidence grows with each major tournament.

No, confidence grows with big wins, it can actually be demolished with bad losses. See Roger in 08, Rafa at end of 09, Nole for much of this summer, etc.

Confidence grows with each win on any surface. But you are assuming Rafa would have won Wimbledon had he played. The chances of Nadal winning Wimbledon lie somewhere between 1% to 100% and never 100%. If he were to participate in the tournament, only then it would have been either 100% (because he won) or 0% (because he lost). So you are simply speculating that he would have won had he played. He could have lost too by the same token.

I definitely don't assume Rafa would have won in 2009 had he played. Rafa has ALWAYS struggled in week 1 when the surface is quicker and lower bouncing. 2008 and 2011 were the only years he didn't have to at least go 5 with a nobody and even then he had fairly tough matches vs. Gulbis and DP.

But certainly Rafa in 2009 had way more chances than Murray in 2007. We will agree to disagree on "confidence building with every win." That sounds good on paper but Murray making the 4th round or even quarters would have done nothing for him there.
 

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Fiero425 said:
Sampras had the game to win RG, but wasn't really committed to doing it; not that I know of anyway! He was also very unlucky playing past or future FO winners! I seem to remember him getting past Bruguera and Courier only to lose to eventual winner Kafelnikov in the semi in '96! I didn't see it, but Agassi supposedly wore him out in an early round one year as well! IIRC his best chances should have been between '95 & '97! He was at the height of his powers, was established as #1, and could afford really preparing for the tourney! Before and after that he was wasting his time! Edberg had the best chance of winning with an aggressive style, but he was "spent" even before he won that 4th set from Chang in '89! That's one reason I haven't been that hard on top players who skipped or never won the tourney! It had an affect on a player for months depending on how successful he performed making semi or final! Lendl's was "done" for '84 after killing himself to win over McEnroe in 5 sets! Edberg was dead meat going into Wimbledon and actually lost a "love" set to Becker in the final! At least the surface and balls have been changed so it isn't as grueling as the old days, but it's still a haven for baseliners! A serve and volleyer hasn't won since Yannick Noah in '83 with an honorable mention of Federer in '09!

Back to the topic at hand, I don't think Murray has a snowball's chance in Hades to win a French Open! He'll be lucky to make a final! Like Nadal, he works too hard from the baseline with players not even highly ranked! You need to get on and get off the court sometime and conserve your energy! Add back and knee problems, I think Andy's pushing it to even attend the tourney! I've been begging Roger would get over it and skip to prepare for Wimbledon which he has a much better chance of winning! He's stubborn though, even with his style of play; trying to slog it out with kids from the baseline! :huh: :cry Could it get any worse than this past season losing to kids I'd never heard of on clay? In the old days, that would be no big deal, but it accelerates Roger's decline IMO!

Good post, Fiero. I meant to quote you earlier but got sidetracked by some other argument.

You are right. Sampras wasn't indeed too committed as far as the French was concerned. Two reasons, one, he had a condition in his blood that would make him lethargic if he were to engage himself in long grueling rallies under the sun, so he had to opt for a game that would give him the quick result; second, Wimbledon was too close to RG and Wimbledon was everything he had ever dreamt of and he could never risk it no matter what. So RG had to go. He had said a number of times that he felt right home at Centre Court of Wimbledon. USO was his 2nd favourite. He wasn't too keen on AO (mainly because of the distance) and had skipped it twice. He also had to withdraw from the 1999 USO with a sudden back injury just before it. He was the hottest player on tour at that moment and was on a winning streak. Had he played, chances were very, very high of him winning another USO. It went to Agassi instead. And he beat Todd Martin in the final.

Anyway, I had watched the whole 1996 French Open that year on TV. He had three 5 setters against two French champion Bruguera and Jim Courier and one against Todd Martin enroute to semi and met with a very fresh Kafelnikov in the semi. In fact, he was so spent by that time that Kafelnikov bageled him in the 2nd set. And he didn't have any time to recover from that long haul at RG and ended up losing to Krajicek in the qtr final in straight sets at Wimbledon.

Sampras could have won RG at least 1 time, yes had he paid equal attention to both RG and Wimbledon, but early on he'd decided that he was only going to focus on Wimbledon. And he never had an easier time from the get go of his career and staying at No. 1 for six straight years was really taking a toll on his body and mind. As someone mentioned somewhere I forget, he wanted to break Laver's record and had Laver had a higher GS count, then he would have gone for that but since he had already broken the record, he wasn't motivated at all and wanted to retire after 2000. He can't possibly beat Federer's record since he came before Federer.

I don't know if you know this but McEnroe himself was quite done after 1986 and took a six month break from the tour because he felt so exhausted. He was never the same player after he came back and never won a Major after that.

I believe Murray has the potential to win RG however, I am not sure if he is willing to sacrifice Wimbledon. Like Sampras, Wimbledon means a great deal to him. Quite ironic that both Sampras and Murray used the same mentor to guide them to the right direction - Lendl. And Lendl' work ethics even back then was epic. He literally proved that failure is indeed the key to the ultimate success.
 

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DarthFed said:
Emma said:
DarthFed said:
Emma said:
DarthFed said:
Hasn't done so since 2011 to be exact. I'm sure Murray would've put the fear of God in Federer and Nadal in 2007

He wouldn't have but it matters. Confidence grows with each major tournament.

No, confidence grows with big wins, it can actually be demolished with bad losses. See Roger in 08, Rafa at end of 09, Nole for much of this summer, etc.

Confidence grows with each win on any surface. But you are assuming Rafa would have won Wimbledon had he played. The chances of Nadal winning Wimbledon lie somewhere between 1% to 100% and never 100%. If he were to participate in the tournament, only then it would have been either 100% (because he won) or 0% (because he lost). So you are simply speculating that he would have won had he played. He could have lost too by the same token.

I definitely don't assume Rafa would have won in 2009 had he played. Rafa has ALWAYS struggled in week 1 when the surface is quicker and lower bouncing. 2008 and 2011 were the only years he didn't have to at least go 5 with a nobody and even then he had fairly tough matches vs. Gulbis and DP.

But certainly Rafa in 2009 had way more chances than Murray in 2007. We will agree to disagree on "confidence building with every win." That sounds good on paper but Murray making the 4th round or even quarters would have done nothing for him there.

Since we don't know if Nadal wasn't going to win Wimbledon or not had he played Wimbledon in 2009, any assumptions we make afterwards is moot. Let's leave it that. But he definitely had a higher chances in 2009 than Murray in 2007 so I'll give you that. Though I might as well add that I bet you didn't see the loss to Soderling at RG in the 4th round coming by any chance. What makes you think Nadal would have been more confident at Wimbledon after that great loss at RG just a week or two prior? Begs the question, doesn't it?

But by the same token, had Andy played in 2007, maybe the chances for him to win Wimbledon one year earlier, say in 2012, could have been higher.
 

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I'm not sure Sampras had the game to win RG. It just seemed like he actually couldn't play his normal game on clay and was struggling to adjust. He's done well at times, but in general, there's a reason he struggled so much. This is not an insult. After all, inferior players have won RG. But purely from a game's perspective, I think it was obvious Pete struggled.
 

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Denisovich said:
I think Emma is referring to the consecutive early round losses of the last years. Plus he didn't play in 2009 I think?

Anyway, OT: this thread is a bit of a troll thread. Murray won Wimbledon, seems to matter on the island he comes from even more than anywhere else. Wouldn't even compare to winning all masters since Lendl arrived.

It is a troll thread. No doubt about that. I don't think any Murray fan would argue that he doesn't need to improve his consistency. I'm looking forward to seeing how he performs next year. I'm hoping he'll be pain free and able to play well on all surfaces.

Yes, Andy's win did matter "on the island he comes from more than anywhere else". That's to be expected. Wimbledon finally had another male British champion. I do recall it making front page news in the international press. It was a huge story in sport.

BTW the island does have a name. :)
 

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Iona16 said:
Denisovich said:
I think Emma is referring to the consecutive early round losses of the last years. Plus he didn't play in 2009 I think?

Anyway, OT: this thread is a bit of a troll thread. Murray won Wimbledon, seems to matter on the island he comes from even more than anywhere else. Wouldn't even compare to winning all masters since Lendl arrived.

It is a troll thread. No doubt about that. I don't think any Murray fan would argue that he doesn't need to improve his consistency. I'm looking forward to seeing how he performs next year. I'm hoping he'll be pain free and able to play well on all surfaces.

Yes, Andy's win did matter "on the island he comes from more than anywhere else". That's to be expected. Wimbledon finally had another male British champion. I do recall it making front page news in the international press. It was a huge story in sport.

BTW the island does have a name. :)

Proof that it's a troll thread is that it bashes Murray for not having won more Masters since Lendl. The knock on Andy, pre-Lendl, was that he won Masters, but didn't win Slams. As others have said, Lendl's job was to help him get across the finish line at Majors. Thread topic is an attempt to move the target.

(BTW, I suspect Denisovich's phrase "the island where he comes from" was an editorial flourish, nothing else.)
 

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Broken_Shoelace said:
I'm not sure Sampras had the game to win RG. It just seemed like he actually couldn't play his normal game on clay and was struggling to adjust. He's done well at times, but in general, there's a reason he struggled so much. This is not an insult. After all, inferior players have won RG. But purely from a game's perspective, I think it was obvious Pete struggled.

This brings Federer into the picture. What made him not win more than 1 RG in his entire career? I know the answer is immediately Nadal and I know he's all that jazz and some more, but Federer started to come together in 2003 and yet, he got beaten in straight sets by Lorna in the very first round. Next year, in 2004, he won every single Slam except for RG. There he got beaten by Guga again in straight sets in the 3rd round. Now Federer was No. 1 player and the top seed in 2004, while Guga was 28 and also, ranked 28. So what went wrong there? Two years in a row he couldn't win RG in the absence of Rafa? And given that he had so many chances against Rafa at RG, how is it that he was unable to win at least 1 time against him? If Soderling can beat Nadal out of nowhere then why Federer, who was supposedly good on clay, simply couldn't?

Btw, only 10-11% of Federer's total collection belongs to clay. Rest of his 90% collection came on hard and grass. Federer turned pro in 1998 and it took him 11 long years to win French Open and that too came in the absence of Nadal.
 

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Emma said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
I'm not sure Sampras had the game to win RG. It just seemed like he actually couldn't play his normal game on clay and was struggling to adjust. He's done well at times, but in general, there's a reason he struggled so much. This is not an insult. After all, inferior players have won RG. But purely from a game's perspective, I think it was obvious Pete struggled.

This brings Federer into the picture. What made him not win more than 1 RG in his entire career? I know the answer is immediately Nadal and I know he's all that jazz and some more, but Federer started to come together in 2003 and yet, he got beaten in straight sets by Lorna in the very first round. Next year, in 2004, he won every single Slam except for RG. There he got beaten by Guga again in straight sets in the 3rd round. Now Federer was No. 1 player and the top seed in 2004, while Guga was 28 and also, ranked 28. So what went wrong there? Two years in a row he couldn't win RG in the absence of Rafa? And given that he had so many chances against Rafa at RG, how is it that he was unable to win at least 1 time against him? If Soderling can beat Nadal out of nowhere then why Federer, who was supposedly good on clay, simply couldn't?

Btw, only 10-11% of Federer's total collection belongs to clay. Rest of his 90% collection came on hard and grass. Federer turned pro in 1998 and it took him 11 long years to win French Open and that too came in the absence of Nadal.

Fed wasn't supposedly good on clay - he WAS good on clay. As you've stated, Nadal was the obvious reason that prevented Federer winning more French Open titles. Sure, he'll lose a match here or there to other players, as will the vast majority of players.

Pete never felt comfortable on clay and in his autobiography felt he couldn't play his own game. He was definitely committed for a number of years but towards the end I think he just accepted he wasn't going to win in Paris. He actually said he wished he felt he could have attacked a lot more in line with his natural game (like Edberg - who made the 89 final) but never felt confident enough to do it. So, I think it was more down to game than actual commitment.

By the way, Murray has had a fantastic couple of years and the thread is a pitiful attempt to demean his achievements.
 

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britbox said:
By the way, Murray has had a fantastic couple of years and the thread is a pitiful attempt to demean his achievements.

Hitting the nail on the head. :clap
 

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But that doesn't answer my question, baron. If Federer was good enough then he would have won RG around that time as well, especially when Nadal was nowhere to be found. You can't say 'oh but he'd get beaten by a few people here and there too' but that sounds like a cop out. Fact is, he was the No. 1 player and he won Wimbledon twice already by that time and won AO and USO but not the French. Instead he got beaten twice and in straight sets. He may be good but clearly that wasn't enough. And also, if Nadal could finally turn the tide against Federer at Wimbledon then surely Federer should have done it too at least one time?

And right now, it's not about Sampras anymore. Let's just say he was terrible and horrible on clay if that pleases everyone here. But let's keep the focus on Federer for a moment or two.

I am not too bothered by fastgrass' attempt. He seems benign. I am more upset with masterclass' take on Murray where he said it was because of Federer's decline and Nadal's injury that benefited Murray.
 

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Emma said:
But that doesn't answer my question, baron. If Federer was good enough then he would have won RG around that time as well, especially when Nadal was nowhere to be found. You can't say 'oh but he'd get beaten by a few people here and there too' but that sounds like a cop out. Fact is, he was the No. 1 player and he won Wimbledon twice already by that time and won AO and USO but not the French. Instead he got beaten twice and in straight sets. He may be good but clearly that wasn't enough. And also, if Nadal could finally turn the tide against Federer at Wimbledon then surely Federer should have done it too at least one time?

And right now, it's not about Sampras anymore. Let's just say he was terrible and horrible on clay if that pleases everyone here. But let's keep the focus on Federer for a moment or two.

I am not too bothered by fastgrass' attempt. He seems benign. I am more upset with masterclass' take on Murray where he said it was because of Federer's decline and Nadal's injury that benefited Murray.

Can you be a bit more specific with the question as I'm not sure what it is?

Is it was Federer good on clay? or something else...

As for Pete, it doesn't have to be a choice between two extremes - a) He's horrible and stunk the place out or b) He was fantastic on clay. There's plenty of scope for a view in between. Mine is he was an average player on clay and not good enough to win Roland Garros. He wasn't terrible by any stretch and had a few good wins over decent clay court players.
 

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britbox said:
Emma said:
But that doesn't answer my question, baron. If Federer was good enough then he would have won RG around that time as well, especially when Nadal was nowhere to be found. You can't say 'oh but he'd get beaten by a few people here and there too' but that sounds like a cop out. Fact is, he was the No. 1 player and he won Wimbledon twice already by that time and won AO and USO but not the French. Instead he got beaten twice and in straight sets. He may be good but clearly that wasn't enough. And also, if Nadal could finally turn the tide against Federer at Wimbledon then surely Federer should have done it too at least one time?

And right now, it's not about Sampras anymore. Let's just say he was terrible and horrible on clay if that pleases everyone here. But let's keep the focus on Federer for a moment or two.

I am not too bothered by fastgrass' attempt. He seems benign. I am more upset with masterclass' take on Murray where he said it was because of Federer's decline and Nadal's injury that benefited Murray.

Can you be a bit more specific with the question as I'm not sure what it is?

Is it was Federer good on clay? or something else...

As for Pete, it doesn't have to be a choice between two extremes - a) He's horrible and stunk the place out or b) He was fantastic on clay. There's plenty of scope for a view in between. Mine is he was an average player on clay and not good enough to win Roland Garros. He wasn't terrible by any stretch and had a few good wins over decent clay court players.

I think the question is too coy, or leading. I think it's unfair to say that Federer 'should' have won RG before 2005, which is Emma's supposition. 2003 was rather early in his rise, and 2004 he lost to Guga Kuertan, a 3X winner at RG. That's a bad draw, when you look at the way the 2004 tournament played out. That he became the 2nd best player on clay, and was for several years is absolutely true. The tough question for him was timing: not having gotten it enough together on clay to have won RG in 2004, and then having Nadal in front of him, most of the rest of the time. But he still was good enough to pull off a RG win. Which brings us back to Sampras. As good as he was, it was never going to happen for him on the dirt, and I fault him, and the US system. Pete never acted like he'd adapt his game to clay, and so he never got RG. Period.
 

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Emma said:
But that doesn't answer my question, baron. If Federer was good enough then he would have won RG around that time as well, especially when Nadal was nowhere to be found. You can't say 'oh but he'd get beaten by a few people here and there too' but that sounds like a cop out. Fact is, he was the No. 1 player and he won Wimbledon twice already by that time and won AO and USO but not the French. Instead he got beaten twice and in straight sets. He may be good but clearly that wasn't enough. And also, if Nadal could finally turn the tide against Federer at Wimbledon then surely Federer should have done it too at least one time?

And right now, it's not about Sampras anymore. Let's just say he was terrible and horrible on clay if that pleases everyone here. But let's keep the focus on Federer for a moment or two.

I am not too bothered by fastgrass' attempt. He seems benign. I am more upset with masterclass' take on Murray where he said it was because of Federer's decline and Nadal's injury that benefited Murray.

Roger's game was still developing even in 04 and 05 when he was generally much more aggressive than 2006 to present. That was a big part of the reason he didn't do well at RG until 2005, too aggressive and not as good at constructing points. Also, clay IS his weakest surface and always was. It sounds like you are saying, "he was so good on grass already so why couldn't he win on clay." Well, he was always going to be better on grass and hards than clay. Everyone has their weakest surface...

The fact is Roger was good enough to win on clay and did win 1 RG and 6 MS events, but Nadal was in the way and Roger was always worse on clay than everywhere else.