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El Dude

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Sorry, it is not nitpicking, but words matter. It is the direct meaning of your post. When you list a collection of players and then say beyond that point it becomes questionable, you are clearly saying that your initial collection of players are universally acknowledged as definitely being superior to Federer on clay. You are not merely saying in your opinion Novak has edge over Fed (which BTW you are entitled to hold).

I agree that words matter - and I can see how my initial post could be interpreted to imply something that I did not mean, which is that Novak over Roger was unquestionable. I did not mean that and I think you know that is not what I meant. If I were to re-write that post to be absolutely precise in what I actually think, I would say, "In my opinion, Rafa is the peerless King of Clay, and Borg a clear second; beyond those two, Lendl is a probable but distant third. After those three it becomes less clear, but I'd give Novak a small edge over Roger and the rest of the pack as 4th, and Roger probably 5th, although would want to consider other candidates, such as Vilas and Wilander, even Muster."

Or something like that. But I haven't done an in-depth study so wouldn't want to make any definitive statements at this point.

But let's not make mountains out of mole-hills, otherwise the trolls feel validated in their endless trolling and we get a very muddy forum that makes interesting and civil conversation difficult to be had. We're here to talk tennis around a pint or two, no? One problem I run into quite frequently is that I often present ideas that I am considering, but aren't strong opinions. I find it frustrating when some of the more concrete-minded folks take things as "declarative statements," like I am making a list or categorization that I see as Absolute Fact Chiseled In Stone, or trying to defend a disertation, when it is mostly just me thinking out loud and finger-painting. It is a stylistic difference that evidently doesn't translate well to the more literal-minded.
 

Federberg

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I freely admit when I'm wrong - but I don't just bow to macho dudes like you just because you tell me I'm wrong. This is your projection, and I've seen it again and again as you go after people on variations of this theme, while not once every admitting any wrong-doing on your part.
Lol! Actually you’re wrong there mate. I admit my errors so quickly it never seems controversial. You should learn from that
 

El Dude

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Lol! Actually you’re wrong there mate. I admit my errors so quickly it never seems controversial. You should learn from that

picard-facepalm.jpg
 

Federberg

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I agree that words matter - and I can see how my initial post could be interpreted to imply something that I did not mean, which is that Novak over Roger was unquestionable. I did not mean that and I think you know that is not what I meant. If I were to re-write that post to be absolutely precise in what I actually think, I would say, "In my opinion, Rafa is the peerless King of Clay, and Borg a clear second; beyond those two, Lendl is a probable but distant third. After those three it becomes less clear, but I'd give Novak a small edge over Roger and the rest of the pack as 4th, and Roger probably 5th, although would want to consider other candidates, such as Vilas and Wilander, even Muster."

Or something like that. But I haven't done an in-depth study so wouldn't want to make any definitive statements at this point.

But let's not make mountains out of mole-hills, otherwise the trolls feel validated in their endless trolling and we get a very muddy forum that makes interesting and civil conversation difficult to be had. We're here to talk tennis around a pint or two, no? One problem I run into quite frequently is that I often present ideas that I am considering, but aren't strong opinions. I find it frustrating when some of the more concrete-minded folks take things as "declarative statements," like I am making a list or categorization that I see as Absolute Fact Chiseled In Stone, or trying to defend a disertation, when it is mostly just me thinking out loud and finger-painting. It is a stylistic difference that evidently doesn't translate well to the more literal-minded.
There’s a simple solution mate, think before you speak. Simples
 
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Ricardo

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I agree that words matter - and I can see how my initial post could be interpreted to imply something that I did not mean, which is that Novak over Roger was unquestionable. I did not mean that and I think you know that is not what I meant. If I were to re-write that post to be absolutely precise in what I actually think, I would say, "In my opinion, Rafa is the peerless King of Clay, and Borg a clear second; beyond those two, Lendl is a probable but distant third. After those three it becomes less clear, but I'd give Novak a small edge over Roger and the rest of the pack as 4th, and Roger probably 5th, although would want to consider other candidates, such as Vilas and Wilander, even Muster."

Or something like that. But I haven't done an in-depth study so wouldn't want to make any definitive statements at this point.

But let's not make mountains out of mole-hills, otherwise the trolls feel validated in their endless trolling and we get a very muddy forum that makes interesting and civil conversation difficult to be had. We're here to talk tennis around a pint or two, no? One problem I run into quite frequently is that I often present ideas that I am considering, but aren't strong opinions. I find it frustrating when some of the more concrete-minded folks take things as "declarative statements," like I am making a list or categorization that I see as Absolute Fact Chiseled In Stone, or trying to defend a disertation, when it is mostly just me thinking out loud and finger-painting. It is a stylistic difference that evidently doesn't translate well to the more literal-minded.
Let’s put your post exactly what it was, in your opinion Novak is without a question better than everyone else ever, with exception of the three. That I say (and others) is bs, and instead of admitting you were simply wrong, you go on and on about others fault for misinterpretation, making a deal out of it, how you didn’t mean that bla bla bla, it’s others being wrong etc.

Then you say how it is debatable after being exposed of your stupidity.

I’d probably let you off if you were just clueless, but you are also loud, and cocky. Now that combination is just disgusting, on top of that you are also a hypocrite. It was nice GSM spotted that and called you out too. I don’t give permission for you to get away with this, and your claim that Novak is unquestionably the fourth best ever clay courter is simply laughable and again shows exactly what you don’t have, basic common sense.

Does anyone else actually believe Novak really unquestionably superior to Fed, Gaga, Muster, Courier, Bruguera, Rosewall, Laver, Vilas, etc etc etc on clay? Because that’s how el don’t know ranked him, while denying his love for Novak, now he is back-pedalling and accuse others of misinterpreting him, just exactly what did we misinterpret? His posts meant exactly that, nothing else.

And he says he would admit when he is wrong.

People who expose him are trolls.
 

shawnbm

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I think you should be a little more careful with terminology. It's not so much that Roger "excelled" in Madrid and Hamburg. He won them over Rafa. He hung tough with Rafa in other clay events, as did Novak...who also lost to Rafa, at all of them, I think, but beat him sometimes. Yes, when Rafa was a bit older and more beat up.

Roger and Rafa in the Rome final THIRTEEN YEARS AGO was sublime tennis. The shotmaking, the stamina and the closeness of the two over five hours was incredible. How often has Roger thought back on not winning one of those two match points! It surely started bothering him at MC in 2009--it showed. At any rate, I thought that was the finest clay court match I saw and it was the one (I do believe) wherein Nadal broke the record held by Vilas for 30 years. The Spanish Bull's streak would continue until the following spring in 2007 when Federer finally defeated him in the Hamburg final (after Rafa slid by Novak in a three hour semifinal). I recall those Halcyon days--LOL!
 

Fiero425

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Roger and Rafa in the Rome final THIRTEEN YEARS AGO was sublime tennis. The shotmaking, the stamina and the closeness of the two over five hours was incredible. How often has Roger thought back on not winning one of those two match points! It surely started bothering him at MC in 2009--it showed. At any rate, I thought that was the finest clay court match I saw and it was the one (I do believe) wherein Nadal broke the record held by Vilas for 30 years. The Spanish Bull's streak would continue until the following spring in 2007 when Federer finally defeated him in the Hamburg Final (after Rafa slid by Novak in a 3 hour SF). I recall those Halcyon days--LOL!

I remember it all quite well! Nole always softened up Rafa in SF's for Roger to take advantage of in the final; or visa versa! No other "3rd Wheel's" had it tougher dealing with Fedal time and time again along the way to his own greatness! That's why I give Nole tons more credit for his accomplishments! Federer started out with a weak era of players, his pigeon (A-Rod) helping, then finally got 1 rival that owned him from the start! Nole had to plow thru all that greatness to finally take over the tour himself for a while, closing in on their major totals! :whistle:
 

Federberg

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I remember it all quite well! Nole always softened up Rafa in SF's for Roger to take advantage of in the final; or visa versa! No other "3rd Wheel's" had it tougher dealing with Fedal time and time again along the way to his own greatness! That's why I give Nole tons more credit for his accomplishments! Federer started out with a weak era of players, his pigeon (A-Rod) helping, then finally got 1 rival that owned him from the start! Nole had to plow thru all that greatness to finally take over the tour himself for a while, closing in on their major totals! :whistle:
There you go with your BS, "Novak is the greatest again". When Federer won in his prime, everyone was weak. When he wins now, Novak had a stomach ache. You can't stop yourself :lulz1:
 

Fiero425

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There you go with your BS, "Novak is the greatest again". When Federer won in his prime, everyone was weak. When he wins now, Novak had a stomach ache. You can't stop yourself.:lulz1:

Nope, I just can't help myself! Federer is still the greatest for the time being! I'm just giving due salute to Nole who's had to live in the shadow of Fedal for years! Everyone back in the day hasn't been weak, but Roger owning the tour for years before Nadal coming along gives some credence to my opinion! Federer defeating Djokovic the last several years has proved quite difficult with many opportunities for Roger to make his mark, but he hasn't so your stomach ache "read" is moot! Lucky Rafa came back to Earth and Fed has been able to win several matches in a row over his so called "closest rival!" Roger's real rival has always been with Nole with each having success over each other over the last decade or so! The historic GOAT will inevitably be decided between these 2; Nadal out of the loop due to his unbalanced success with most of it on clay! :whistle: :yesyes: :rolleyes: :ptennis:
 

Federberg

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Nope, I just can't help myself! Federer is still the greatest for the time being! I'm just giving due salute to Nole who's had to live in the shadow of Fedal for years! Everyone back in the day hasn't been weak, but Roger owning the tour for years before Nadal coming along gives some credence to my opinion! Federer defeating Djokovic the last several years has proved quite difficult with many opportunities for Roger to make his mark, but he hasn't so your stomach ache "read" is moot! Lucky Rafa came back to Earth and Fed has been able to win several matches in a row over his so called "closest rival!" Roger's real rival has always been with Nole with each having success over each other over the last decade or so! The historic GOAT will inevitably be decided between these 2; Nadal out of the loop due to his unbalanced success with most of it on clay! :whistle: :yesyes: :rolleyes: :ptennis:
the one thing I agree with you about is that the discussion is likely to end up between Novak and Roger. They are both worthy dominators. But all your sniping to diminish Roger strikes me as a little desperate. But each to their own mate! :D
 

shawnbm

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No need to defend Roger--he was there before, during and after so many. Frankly, the same can be said about Rafa and Nole--as they too have preceded and then succeeded a new generation of players. The three are in a very special category that has nothing to do with weak eras. They are just better, plain and simple.
 

Moxie

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I remember it all quite well! Nole always softened up Rafa in SF's for Roger to take advantage of in the final; or visa versa! No other "3rd Wheel's" had it tougher dealing with Fedal time and time again along the way to his own greatness! That's why I give Nole tons more credit for his accomplishments! Federer started out with a weak era of players, his pigeon (A-Rod) helping, then finally got 1 rival that owned him from the start! Nole had to plow thru all that greatness to finally take over the tour himself for a while, closing in on their major totals! :whistle:
Nope, I just can't help myself! Federer is still the greatest for the time being! I'm just giving due salute to Nole who's had to live in the shadow of Fedal for years! Everyone back in the day hasn't been weak, but Roger owning the tour for years before Nadal coming along gives some credence to my opinion! Federer defeating Djokovic the last several years has proved quite difficult with many opportunities for Roger to make his mark, but he hasn't so your stomach ache "read" is moot! Lucky Rafa came back to Earth and Fed has been able to win several matches in a row over his so called "closest rival!" Roger's real rival has always been with Nole with each having success over each other over the last decade or so! The historic GOAT will inevitably be decided between these 2; Nadal out of the loop due to his unbalanced success with most of it on clay!
What a load of biased hooey. I still say Rafa's had it toughest of the 3, being sandwiched in between, with no "breather" of his own, and you have to admit that Djokovic had some time with the field to himself. If Novak was so great, I don't completely buy that he didn't do more from 20-23, except that he needed Roger and Rafa to wear down a bit. That can't be all about wheat gluten. As to Nadal being out of the conversation because there is too much clay on his resume: it could be said that Roger and Novak don't have enough. Why don't they? Because of Rafa. Why doesn't he have more off? Because of Roger and Novak. At least he had two to take down in off-clay events...at the same time or not. But they only had one and rarely/never did. Rafa is far from out of the GOAT conversation.
 

DarthFed

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What a load of biased hooey. I still say Rafa's had it toughest of the 3, being sandwiched in between, with no "breather" of his own, and you have to admit that Djokovic had some time with the field to himself. If Novak was so great, I don't completely buy that he didn't do more from 20-23, except that he needed Roger and Rafa to wear down a bit. That can't be all about wheat gluten. As to Nadal being out of the conversation because there is too much clay on his resume: it could be said that Roger and Novak don't have enough. Why don't they? Because of Rafa. Why doesn't he have more off? Because of Roger and Novak. At least he had two to take down in off-clay events...at the same time or not. But they only had one and rarely/never did. Rafa is far from out of the GOAT conversation.

Lol Nadal was worn down in 2011 at age 25? Still trying so hard after all these years to make Novak out to be 2nd rate. Clearly Novak improved quite a bit from his 2006-2010 form. There really is no other way to spin it.
 
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Moxie

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Lol Nadal was worn down in 2011 at age 25? Still trying so hard after all these years to make Novak out to be 2nd rate. Clearly Novak improved quite a bit from his 2006-2010 form. There really is no other way to spin it.
LOL, you've long told us that Roger was past his best years in 2007. At that point, I think he was..ahem...25.

Nadal had a lot of miles on his body long before Djokovic did. You can look at their w/l count. Novak had a Major at 20, but stalled. If you don't like me to say that Nadal had a lot of miles in, then I ask you why Novak, such a future great, and only a year younger than Nadal, didn't do better, sooner? Sure, he "improved a bit," (I'd say a lot,) but why not earlier? Why, after Fedal had been so many years debating it at top gear between the 2 of them? Because he finally got a window. I'm not trying to make Novak 2nd rate, I'm just trying to keep things in context. I really do think that they are 3 certain Hall of Famers, and having them all play in the same era is an anomaly and amazing. You are one who goes on about how Roger wasn't really full force after 2006-7. I should have the same ability to say that Rafa's prime days were behind him, too, when Djokovic speed-dialed to a new level.
 

El Dude

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Moxie, I'm torn about Fiero's statement that you bolded. On one hand I kind of agree with him in that I don't think Rafa can do much more on clay to improve his legacy, if we take "legacy" to be a more subjective or inter-subjective thing, and not something that is easily quantifiable. He's already the very best on clay - winning another RG or two doesn't change that (bester and besterest?). And just as I think another RG would improve Roger's or Novak's resumes more than any other Slam, so too do I think a non-clay Slam would be better for Rafa than another RG. But that's more of a subjective feeling than statistical analysis. In the end, a Slam is a Slam, and it isn't like Rafa was a slouch off clay.

I do see your point as well. As I said, Rafa did just fine on hards and grass and I don't think we can penalize him for being so dominant on clay. I mean, most agree that he's the "surface GOAT" which is something no one else can say. Some like to use that to downplay his overall greatness, but I see it as a positive. He is the best there ever was on his best surface - better than Roger or Pete on grass, Novak or Roger on hards, etc. And while I know fellow Fedsters like to downplay the 2008 Wimbledon final, it was something for him to beat Roger in his own house - something Roger never did to him. At the very least it was symbolic of him surpassing Roger as the overall greatest in the game - something he did when Roger was still just shy of his 27th birthday, not exactly an old man (on the other hand, Roger's dominance of Rafa in 2017 earned some of that back).

As far as the "race for GOAT" that Fiero mentions, while I generally prefer the "herd" approach (that there are a bunch of GOATs), if we want to try to order them, I do think Roger still has a solid edge over the other two, although this is mainly due to longevity and accumulative stats. If we cut his career off at Rafa's age (almost 33) or Novak's (almost 32), their careers are similar:

Rafa (now): 17 Slams, 80 titles, 196 weeks at #1
Roger through 2014 (age 33, about Rafa's age): 17 Slams, 82 titles, 302 weeks
Novak (now): 15 Slams, 73 titles, 248 weeks at #1
Roger through 2013 (age 32, about Novak's age): 17 Slams, 77 titles, 302 weeks

On surface, Roger looks slightly better, but not by much - and close enough to make a deeper look necessary, this being only a rough comparison. And note that the two Roger lines are the equivalent age of Rafa or Novak later this year, not right now. But in the end, we don't know how much longer Rafa or Novak will be able to perform at an elite level, and thus whether they can come close to Roger's longevity.

I do think you are spinning a bit to downplay Novak's greatness. As I've pointed out before, Rafa was every bit as good in 2011 as he had been in 2010 against every other player except for Novak. In other words, the difference between probably his best year (2010) and maybe his 4th or 5th or, at worst, 6th best year (2011) is Novak reaching his prime. And don't forget that Rafa was as good as ever in 2013 and Novak held his own against him. In other words, 2011-14 saw both in their peak forms, and Novak edged Rafa 12-7 during that time. We don't have a comparative "shared peak" overlap for Roger-Rafa or Roger-Novak.

I also think that Novak has a better chance of catching and surpassing Roger than Rafa does in terms of major accomplishments. He has a good shot at 311+ weeks at #1, probably an equal shot at 21+ Slams and 102+ titles.

The bottom line, though, is that the story isn't over yet. We don't know if Roger can surge and win another Slam and pad his other records. We don't know how much longer Rafa can avoid significant injury (the big worry being that recovery becomes harder and harder, the older you get, and while he's been overall quite healthy the last few years, coming back from a long lay off at 33 or 34 is a bit different than at 27). And we don't know how well Novak will be able to maintain mental focus and discipline, aka "the eye of the tiger."

I think we'll know a lot more in a year but it will be 2-3 years before we have a more definitive sense how the overall GOAT rankings will look. My guess, or maybe wishful thinking, is that Roger will be able to leverage one more Slam and 10+ more titles to get #21 and 110+ titles. I think Rafa has another Slam or two in him and a handful more titles but probably fall short of 20 Slams and 100 titles. And Novak will have spells of dominance over the next two or three years, but they'll be shorter and fewer and farther between. Who knows what he'll end up with, but I suspect 18-19 and 90+ titles, like Rafa, although I think he just sneaks past Roger for weeks at #1.

So I think Roger maintains his lead overall in terms of overall career resume, but that the other two will be close enough that their other qualities will make the GOAT issue debatable for years to come, until Felix Auger Aliassime wins his 22nd Slam in 2034, during AOC's second term ;).

But as Carol would say, "who knows what the future will bring." That's just some wild and fun speculation.
 
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Federberg

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LOL, you've long told us that Roger was past his best years in 2007. At that point, I think he was..ahem...25.

Nadal had a lot of miles on his body long before Djokovic did. You can look at their w/l count. Novak had a Major at 20, but stalled. If you don't like me to say that Nadal had a lot of miles in, then I ask you why Novak, such a future great, and only a year younger than Nadal, didn't do better, sooner? Sure, he "improved a bit," (I'd say a lot,) but why not earlier? Why, after Fedal had been so many years debating it at top gear between the 2 of them? Because he finally got a window. I'm not trying to make Novak 2nd rate, I'm just trying to keep things in context. I really do think that they are 3 certain Hall of Famers, and having them all play in the same era is an anomaly and amazing. You are one who goes on about how Roger wasn't really full force after 2006-7. I should have the same ability to say that Rafa's prime days were behind him, too, when Djokovic speed-dialed to a new level.
I think this is a reasonable defence of Rafa
 
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Federberg

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Moxie, I'm torn about Fiero's statement that you bolded. On one hand I kind of agree with him in that I don't think Rafa can do much more on clay to improve his legacy, if we take "legacy" to be a more subjective or inter-subjective thing, and not something that is easily quantifiable. He's already the very best on clay - winning another RG or two doesn't change that (bester and besterest?). And just as I think another RG would improve Roger's or Novak's resumes more than any other Slam, so too do I think a non-clay Slam would be better for Rafa than another RG. But that's more of a subjective feeling than statistical analysis. In the end, a Slam is a Slam, and it isn't like Rafa was a slouch off clay.

I do see your point as well. As I said, Rafa did just fine on hards and grass and I don't think we can penalize him for being so dominant on clay. I mean, most agree that he's the "surface GOAT" which is something no one else can say. Some like to use that to downplay his overall greatness, but I see it as a positive. He is the best there ever was on his best surface - better than Roger or Pete on grass, Novak or Roger on hards, etc. And while I know fellow Fedsters like to downplay the 2008 Wimbledon final, it was something for him to beat Roger in his own house - something Roger never did to him. At the very least it was symbolic of him surpassing Roger as the overall greatest in the game - something he did when Roger was still just shy of his 27th birthday, not exactly an old man (on the other hand, Roger's dominance of Rafa in 2017 earned some of that back).

As far as the "race for GOAT" that Fiero mentions, while I generally prefer the "herd" approach (that there are a bunch of GOATs), if we want to try to order them, I do think Roger still has a solid edge over the other two, although this is mainly due to longevity and accumulative stats. If we cut his career off at Rafa's age (almost 33) or Novak's (almost 32), their careers are similar:

Rafa (now): 17 Slams, 80 titles, 196 weeks at #1
Roger through 2014 (age 33, about Rafa's age): 17 Slams, 82 titles, 302 weeks
Novak (now): 15 Slams, 73 titles, 248 weeks at #1
Roger through 2013 (age 32, about Novak's age): 17 Slams, 77 titles, 302 weeks

On surface, Roger looks slightly better, but not by much - and close enough to make a deeper look necessary, this being only a rough comparison. And note that the two Roger lines are the equivalent age of Rafa or Novak later this year, not right now. But in the end, we don't know how much longer Rafa or Novak will be able to perform at an elite level, and thus whether they can come close to Roger's longevity.

I do think you are spinning a bit to downplay Novak's greatness. As I've pointed out before, Rafa was every bit as good in 2011 as he had been in 2010 against every other player except for Novak. In other words, the difference between probably his best year (2010) and maybe his 4th or 5th or, at worst, 6th best year (2011) is Novak reaching his prime. And don't forget that Rafa was as good as ever in 2013 and Novak held his own against him. In other words, 2011-14 saw both in their peak forms, and Novak edged Rafa 12-7 during that time. We don't have a comparative "shared peak" overlap for Roger-Rafa or Roger-Novak.

I also think that Novak has a better chance of catching and surpassing Roger than Rafa does in terms of major accomplishments. He has a good shot at 311+ weeks at #1, probably an equal shot at 21+ Slams and 102+ titles.

The bottom line, though, is that the story isn't over yet. We don't know if Roger can surge and win another Slam and pad his other records. We don't know how much longer Rafa can avoid significant injury (the big worry being that recovery becomes harder and harder, the older you get, and while he's been overall quite healthy the last few years, coming back from a long lay off at 33 or 34 is a bit different than at 27). And we don't know how well Novak will be able to maintain mental focus and discipline, aka "the eye of the tiger."

I think we'll know a lot more in a year but it will be 2-3 years before we have a more definitive sense how the overall GOAT rankings will look. My guess, or maybe wishful thinking, is that Roger will be able to leverage one more Slam and 10+ more titles to get #21 and 110+ titles. I think Rafa has another Slam or two in him and a handful more titles but probably fall short of 20 Slams and 100 titles. And Novak will have spells of dominance over the next two or three years, but they'll be shorter and fewer and farther between. Who knows what he'll end up with, but I suspect 18-19 and 90+ titles, like Rafa, although I think he just sneaks past Roger for weeks at #1.

So I think Roger maintains his lead overall in terms of overall career resume, but that the other two will be close enough that their other qualities will make the GOAT issue debatable for years to come, until Felix Auger Aliassime wins his 22nd Slam in 2034, during AOC's second term ;).

But as Carol would say, "who knows what the future will bring." That's just some wild and fun speculation.
Good age comparison. Roger has the edge in all the categories. It also shows the main argument against Rafa his lack of ranking dominance
 

DarthFed

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LOL, you've long told us that Roger was past his best years in 2007. At that point, I think he was..ahem...25.

Nadal had a lot of miles on his body long before Djokovic did. You can look at their w/l count. Novak had a Major at 20, but stalled. If you don't like me to say that Nadal had a lot of miles in, then I ask you why Novak, such a future great, and only a year younger than Nadal, didn't do better, sooner? Sure, he "improved a bit," (I'd say a lot,) but why not earlier? Why, after Fedal had been so many years debating it at top gear between the 2 of them? Because he finally got a window. I'm not trying to make Novak 2nd rate, I'm just trying to keep things in context. I really do think that they are 3 certain Hall of Famers, and having them all play in the same era is an anomaly and amazing. You are one who goes on about how Roger wasn't really full force after 2006-7. I should have the same ability to say that Rafa's prime days were behind him, too, when Djokovic speed-dialed to a new level.

I've long said Roger's peak years were 2004-2007 but he was still in his prime until 2010 or to put it in your words 2010 is when he first appeared to show signs of being worn down. Rafa' best year was 2010 and he basically would've duplicated it if Novak didn't step his game up a bunch of gears. Moreover I just found it funny you grouped Roger and Rafa together as "worn down" in 2011. I think we all know that Novak owning Nadal is a bit different than him owning Federer. The latter was past his prime by the time Djokovic hit his, and that's not the case with Nadal. Djoker lost to Tsonga, Melzer and Berdych at majors in 2010. Still want to argue he only got great because Fedal was washed up or did he actually improve a lot?
 

Ricardo

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I've long said Roger's peak years were 2004-2007 but he was still in his prime until 2010 or to put it in your words 2010 is when he first appeared to show signs of being worn down. Rafa' best year was 2010 and he basically would've duplicated it if Novak didn't step his game up a bunch of gears. Moreover I just found it funny you grouped Roger and Rafa together as "worn down" in 2011. I think we all know that Novak owning Nadal is a bit different than him owning Federer. The latter was past his prime by the time Djokovic hit his, and that's not the case with Nadal. Djoker lost to Tsonga, Melzer and Berdych at majors in 2010. Still want to argue he only got great because Fedal was washed up or did he actually improve a lot?
In 2011 Fed still managed to beat peak Novak at RG, and was match points up at USO so really held his own in 2 out of the three slams they met, so I wouldn’t say he was so owned. Rafa on the other hand was a bit different, but it’s got more to do with their matchup issue than Novak just being flat out better. Same as Fed vs Rafa, I never thought Rafa was twice as good back then (23-10?).