Johnny Mac said Serena would be ranked 700th on ATP

[Federberg]

I'll go even further. When you discuss the GOAT arguments in any sport, you will get critieria thrown up which makes it's irrelevant as to who is "better" head to head. Many would opine that Babe Ruth deserves to be included in the discussions of greatest baseball player ever, despite the speculation that in the modern era he might not even be competitive. The criteria being his domination vis-a-via his contemporaries, ie such stats as that in one season his HR Totals were more than entire rosters of all other AL teams HR totals, etc. So Babe Ruth clearly outdistanced the competition. That is why before Nadal, many would have argued that Chris Evert was the greatest clay court player ever , even though it was obvious that she couldn't beat the top 1000 ATP players on clay.

That is why despite Serena going down the rabbit hole, (and Mac even if somewhat forced to) a bigger issue has been missed. Serena COULD be discussed as the greatest tennis player ever, if, say the criteria would be most Majors won in the Open Era (23) and the player with most longevity at or near the top. Her Majors Win career spans 19 years (1999-1917), being ranked #! Within a spectrum of 15 years (2002-2017)and one could say she has played against the top players of 3 different eras, etc.

What I find objectionable is Mac seemingly aghast that Serena could even be considered in those terms , when I'm sure he would find no problem including Rod Laver on the short list, despite the fact that he would probably be physically overmatched today. I get why many would not include Serena in the short list of Greatest tennis player ever, but by that same token I get why others would think she's worthy of being included in the conversation.

I don't think that Mac was aghast at all. He was effusive in his praise for her. Serena is without a doubt the great female tennis player of all time, he said that and spoke glowingly about her athleticism and mental fortitude. The interviewer courted controversy by bringing up the gender comparison which Mac tried to avoid. Furthermore, I believe in doing so she used the word "best". I personally would have ducked it, but props to Mac, he said it like it is. It's a different sport for a start, but the moment you use the word best, you've entered an entirely different jungle where the arguments aren't subjective anymore. Serena cannot "beat" the men, so in no way can she be called the best. Frankly there should be some outrage on the men's side for being insulting and diminishing their abilities in my view...

 

[brokenshoelace]

I actually think Mac is an absolutely putrid pundit, and a straight up moron, but there is zero wrong with his comments, especially when put in context. Mac said Serena is the best female player in the world and the interviewer asked "why the qualifier? Why not best player in the world, period?"

 

[Haelfix]

Just to be sure, it's often the case the top women will use 15-16 year old guys as hitting partners. There is absolutely no doubt that a rank 700 (being very generous) professional would straight sets her every single time as it's basically a completely different game. The balls aren't even the same.

On the other hand She's right that she shouldn't have to be dragged into a media circus for some random thing.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

I'll go even further. When you discuss the GOAT arguments in any sport, you will get critieria thrown up which makes it's irrelevant as to who is "better" head to head. Many would opine that Babe Ruth deserves to be included in the discussions of greatest baseball player ever, despite the speculation that in the modern era he might not even be competitive. The criteria being his domination vis-a-via his contemporaries, ie such stats as that in one season his HR Totals were more than entire rosters of all other AL teams HR totals, etc. So Babe Ruth clearly outdistanced the competition. That is why before Nadal, many would have argued that Chris Evert was the greatest clay court player ever , even though it was obvious that she couldn't beat the top 1000 ATP players on clay.

That is why despite Serena going down the rabbit hole, (and Mac even if somewhat forced to) a bigger issue has been missed. Serena COULD be discussed as the greatest tennis player ever, if, say the criteria would be most Majors won in the Open Era (23) and the player with most longevity at or near the top. Her Majors Win career spans 19 years (1999-1917), being ranked #! Within a spectrum of 15 years (2002-2017)and one could say she has played against the top players of 3 different eras, etc.

What I find objectionable is Mac seemingly aghast that Serena could even be considered in those terms , when I'm sure he would find no problem including Rod Laver on the short list, despite the fact that he would probably be physically overmatched today. I get why many would not include Serena in the short list of Greatest tennis player ever, but by that same token I get why others would think she's worthy of being included in the conversation.

I agree with the basic spirit of your argument (i.e., as to why she could be considered the best even though she may not beat a 700th ranked player). However, IMO, Serena is not even the greatest female tennis player. I would give the GOATESS award to Helen Wills Moody. I have made the case in full elaboration in the GOATESS thread (mods, I could not find the thread to bump it up).

 

[Busted]

mostly agreed but i don't think it takes her playing against the top males to find out, when anyone in the hundreds would more than likely crash her. There is a reason why she never came back to take on any man, after promising to do so.

That's like when Michelle Wie said she wanted to play on the PGA Tour. Where's she at now? She can't even win an LPGA event and has basically flamed out. She's won 4 LPGA events since turning pro at age 13. She's now 27. It's all fine, well, and good for girls to have lofty goals. As a woman, I'm all for it. BUT, let's temper expectations with a dose of reality - physically very few grown women can compete at the top of a men's sports. There's no need for women to get defensive about that. It's just the way it is. We're not talking about little girls playing little league or flag football with little boys. We're talking about grown women competing with grown men who are physically bigger and stronger. I consider myself a feminist - but I'm a realist, too and the reality is - Serena couldn't compete with the men on a daily basis at 25 let alone 35.

 

[Busted]

I'll go even further. When you discuss the GOAT arguments in any sport, you will get critieria thrown up which makes it's irrelevant as to who is "better" head to head. Many would opine that Babe Ruth deserves to be included in the discussions of greatest baseball player ever, despite the speculation that in the modern era he might not even be competitive. The criteria being his domination vis-a-via his contemporaries, ie such stats as that in one season his HR Totals were more than entire rosters of all other AL teams HR totals, etc. So Babe Ruth clearly outdistanced the competition. That is why before Nadal, many would have argued that Chris Evert was the greatest clay court player ever , even though it was obvious that she couldn't beat the top 1000 ATP players on clay.

That is why despite Serena going down the rabbit hole, (and Mac even if somewhat forced to) a bigger issue has been missed. Serena COULD be discussed as the greatest tennis player ever, if, say the criteria would be most Majors won in the Open Era (23) and the player with most longevity at or near the top. Her Majors Win career spans 19 years (1999-1917), being ranked #! Within a spectrum of 15 years (2002-2017)and one could say she has played against the top players of 3 different eras, etc.

What I find objectionable is Mac seemingly aghast that Serena could even be considered in those terms , when I'm sure he would find no problem including Rod Laver on the short list, despite the fact that he would probably be physically overmatched today. I get why many would not include Serena in the short list of Greatest tennis player ever, but by that same token I get why others would think she's worthy of being included in the conversation.

I don't think Mac was "aghast." I'd say it was more like "befuddled." He honestly doesn't see it as a possibility that Serena is the greatest across the sport. If you're going to go by Slam numbers alone - then shouldn't Navratilova be ahead of Serena because people love to count Serena's Doubles Slams as well and point out that Federer doesn't have any - of course he didn't have the luxury of a sibling who was also a Top 2 player, but that's beside the point. But, if people are going to look at it purely based on numbers - then Navratilova may only have 18 singles titles but she has 31 doubles and 10 mixed doubles titles as well.

Your point that Serena could argue about having played\won across many eras, but at the same time - the longer she's played, the weaker the competition has gotten. I don't think anybody would dispute that fact. She doesn't have Henin, Clijsters, Davenport or Venus to beat. She's got Kerber, Kvitova, Sugarpova, Radwanska, Azarenka, Halep, Muguruza, Pliskova, etc. Heck, look at who she's defeated for her Slams and look at who Steffi defeated for her Slams since Henin retired and tell me Serena's not playing in a weaker era these last 7 years.Aranxta Sanchez Vicario was in 7 Slam finals against Steffi and won only 2. But, of Serena's competition the last decade name one of them who's been in 7 finals with her let alone won 2 of them. Geez. Even Mary Jo Fernandez made 2 Slam finals against Steffi. She lost them both but that's beside the point. She was a better player than some of the current crop that are "challenging" Serena.

Having said all of that - I think McEnroe sees the full scope of Serena's achievements but he also sees the context of those achievements against the broader landscape of tennis -and sorry, but it just doesn't stack up well against the men. Some people argue how can Fed be the goat when arguably he's not the best of his generation - and yet he's 5-6 years older than the other 2 trying to make their case for GOAT. In the woman's game? You have to go back to Steffi and Navratilova to compare Serena's achievements. With the men - they're all present and playing and still vying for Slam titles. That in itself puts Serena on her back foot - whether she likes it or not.

 

[WTA-rocks]

I thought McEnroe's no. 700 comparison was unnecessary. Here we go again: comparing the men against the women. Why are the women not competing against men in Olympic sports... track & field, gymnastics, cycling..... hell, how about boxing ?

It could be argued the top tier of women's tennis is currently not where it should be. The actual depth of the WTA tour has never been better.