Jason Collins

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

he was in the closet..thats the point. which is what this thread is about, he only got married because of social pressure..he felt forced into it to suit society, his parents, and his then girlfriend that he didn't even want.

going to meet strangers in carparks or toilets was the only way he could ever meet men anonymously he wouldn't even go to 'gay bars' in case he was spotted in it, or near it (in his words)..

his wife should never have been his wife and his kids were the result of a sham marriage..he got married to please everyone else not him.

At the very least he shouldn't have got married and lied to his wife for years and children who are now being told they were the product of a lie. Society doesn't force people to get married or have kids. Lot's of people don't.

Understanding his reasons may be one thing, but high fiving the guy for "bravery" is something else. Because he couldn't face up to his own issues, he left a lot of collateral damage by using others as a cover. I'm with Kieran - the wife and kids deserve more empathy.

well you and Kieran don't get it.. he wasn't mentally strong enough to not get married this was in the late 1970s by the way..he said he was too weak to say no the pressure from both sets of parents for a marriage and some 'grandchildren' was apparently strong..just like he wasn't strong enough to expose his estranged wifes blackmail (mental, and monetary blackmail) which is why we broke up..

the 3 children don't know their dad is gay that's the blackmail :huh: he pays his estranged wife 'hush money' on a regular basic (monthly) to ensure she dosnt tell the kids he is gay..the kids are adults and all of them had left home when the whole thing blew up.

it was an empty nest home with just the rwo of them, but the marriage was dead in emotional terms, they were just living under the same roof (easy option again )

he just moved out and she wont even divorce him because that's part of her power game (if you try to angle for a divorce I will tell the kids that their dad is a fu€king sh1t stabber (that and arse bandit were her favourite names for him apparently)

so she used physiological fear, weakness by my 'friend' and she was backed up by her feeling of strength due to the homophobia of the times..he black mail started in the late 90s and had been going on a few years.

he wasn't strong enough to avoid marriage, wasn't strong enough to come out even now, wasn't strong enough to stop the blackmail, wasn't strong enough to go to the police, was.nt strong enough to pre-emptively tell his kids..about him being gay or his wife using them as a tool for blackmail for financial gain...

my head is shagged up after writing this .some people arnt strong he was one of them..we used to sit outside her home in his car and night and he say what he wanted to do but he never could (not the murder/suicide part) then he'd start to cry them we had to leave..

its a big mess..we had to break up it was clear nothing would change I was up for contronting his kids/wife/police on his behalf even :heart::heart::heart: but he couldn't even cope with that

so the wife gets her money the blackmail continues, she dos.nt tell the adult children dad id a 'fu€king sh1tstabber', no divorce (she keeps the power) luckily no murder/suicide, and...........

...................no me and him :heart::huh..i think about him every day still.

its just an example of part of 'the gay universe' I agree the whole thing is hideous but the whole point is..where this Jason basketball bloke comes in...

in or out of the closet.

 

[britbox]

I don't think people being in a loveless marriage, getting pressured into marriage or feeling locked into a marriage is the sole preserve of the gay community. In your earlier posts you blamed his parents, her parents, her, society in general.... then mentioned how weak he was in various places. Maybe some of his issues boil down to him being plain weak rather than being gay.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

Now, don't take this wrong, and I don't approve of blackmail, but did you ever wonder how that guys wife felt when she found out? I mean, can you imagine how exposed and hurt and betrayed and sickened she felt?

I'm not condoning blackmail, but hell had no fury, etc, and in the narrative you have us, he's cruising toilets and carparks? And she found out? He's lucky she didn't shoot him.

And wouldn't he have had to pay for his own kids upkeep anyway? Or was that separate?

I guess we have gotten to the point to where it is worth saying for the sake of where people are coming from, I am straight, but i have interviewed gay men for history projects in grad school, and JesusLLB's narrative seems familliar to me. As far as the women in these relationships goes. Of course she is deserving of pity and empathy, but that does not mean the man is not also. Cruising toilets and carparks is a weird idea from a straight male point of view, but historically this was one of the few places a gay man could go(at least in the states) to find relations, both sexual and emotional. I interviewed someone who lost his virginity (not at a young age) in a bathroom at UCLA. The narrative I tried to create in my longer posts is that of the politics of being gay in America historically (which I imagine translates generally to other western countries). Congrats JesuslookslikeBorg on being able to express your own identity. It is not easy from what I have heard.

its easier than it used to be, but its still a problem oftenI think..for folk to feel its 'ok' to be gay.

---

I don't think people being in a loveless marriage, getting pressured into marriage or feeling locked into a marriage is the sole preserve of the gay community. In your earlier posts you blamed his parents, her parents, her, society in general.... then mentioned how weak he was in various places. Maybe some of his issues boil down to him being plain weak rather than being gay.

I didn't say it was the sole preserve of 'the gay community' :huh:

but I agree with your last sentence..definite issues of him being mentally weak rather than being gay..bit of both..

I don't want this to be about me or him.. its just an angle I had in relation to Jason Collins and his 'coming out of the closet'...weather he was gay or bi or whatever.

 

[Kieran]

I don't think people being in a loveless marriage, getting pressured into marriage or feeling locked into a marriage is the sole preserve of the gay community. In your earlier posts you blamed his parents, her parents, her, society in general.... then mentioned how weak he was in various places. Maybe some of his issues boil down to him being plain weak rather than being gay.

Exactly.

And Borgie, I got you! I just happened to disagree, but that's okay, isn't it? But I got you because you wrote in graphic detail, and even more explicitly yesterday. I find that language on a public forum to be unhelpful - to say the least - and I just hope that no kids are tuning in to read about tennis, because your language was too strong.

I agree with Britbox and I think in some ways we've gotten an insight into the gnarly layers of liberal politics. If your friend was a Republican politician caught with prostitutes, the old Hell Hath no Fury act would be applauded and the woman would - correctly - be identified as the one who was wronged. She'd be cheerleaded into getting her pound of flesh from the cad.

Now, somehow, she's the villain, and I don't think you get her at all.

Likewise with Jason Collins. I agree totally with Tented with how hard it must be, and I'm sure he knows that I'm not judging anyone on their gayness...

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

I don't think people being in a loveless marriage, getting pressured into marriage or feeling locked into a marriage is the sole preserve of the gay community. In your earlier posts you blamed his parents, her parents, her, society in general.... then mentioned how weak he was in various places. Maybe some of his issues boil down to him being plain weak rather than being gay.

Exactly.

And Borgie, I got you! I just happened to disagree, but that's okay, isn't it? But I got you because you wrote in graphic detail, and even more explicitly yesterday. I find that language on a public forum to be unhelpful - to say the least - and I just hope that no kids are tuning in to read about tennis, because your language was too strong.

I agree with Britbox and I think in some ways we've gotten an insight into the gnarly layers of liberal politics. If your friend was a Republican politician caught with prostitutes, the old Hell Hath no Fury act would be applauded and the woman would - correctly - be identified as the one who was wronged. She'd be cheerleaded into getting her pound of flesh from the cad.

Now, somehow, she's the villain, and I don't think you get her at all.

Likewise with Jason Collins. I agree totally with Tented with how hard it must be, and I'm sure he knows that I'm not judging anyone on their gayness...

..I do get her..she feels rage at the fact her adult life was fake and not what she thought and she's blaming her husband/my ex partner when really she should be blaming an anti gay social climate of the 1970s and 80s at least..the only thing he did wrong was not be strong enough to not get married then rest of it is the fault of society not giving him a realistic option for his 'gay lifestyle'.

and she is still homophobic..and she is still blackmailing him..emotionally and for money..and still using her children as pawns in her illegal/sick game..so yes i'm not very sympathetic about blackmail homophobia and brainless hatred ..that she cant see is a result of society (and also his mental weakness).

im not interested in the usa republicans..they hate gays and that's that or 95%+ of them do (??).

 

[Kieran]

@ kieran: I don't think you are dishonest, but your post on your sympathies with his ex-girlfriend came accross as dishonest to me when I read it. But I probably worded my objections too strongly, apologies for that. In any event, I don't care too much about all this. It's really a personal thing for this guy, although I do think it's brave of him to come out as a sportsperson.

Thanks Denisovich - no bother! :shy:

 

[Riotbeard]

I don't think people being in a loveless marriage, getting pressured into marriage or feeling locked into a marriage is the sole preserve of the gay community. In your earlier posts you blamed his parents, her parents, her, society in general.... then mentioned how weak he was in various places. Maybe some of his issues boil down to him being plain weak rather than being gay.

Exactly.

And Borgie, I got you! I just happened to disagree, but that's okay, isn't it? But I got you because you wrote in graphic detail, and even more explicitly yesterday. I find that language on a public forum to be unhelpful - to say the least - and I just hope that no kids are tuning in to read about tennis, because your language was too strong.

I agree with Britbox and I think in some ways we've gotten an insight into the gnarly layers of liberal politics. If your friend was a Republican politician caught with prostitutes, the old Hell Hath no Fury act would be applauded and the woman would - correctly - be identified as the one who was wronged. She'd be cheerleaded into getting her pound of flesh from the cad.

Now, somehow, she's the villain, and I don't think you get her at all.

Likewise with Jason Collins. I agree totally with Tented with how hard it must be, and I'm sure he knows that I'm not judging anyone on their gayness...

Kieran,

You're not wrong about the gnarly layers of liberal politics. I am a lefty and I cannot stand any of the liberals, especially those out in public. I am also surrounded by them in academia. They are usually a bunch of weak hypocrites, but I do think you are somewhat missing the point. Loveless marriages/engagements and social pressure are not the exclusive property of gay people, but the level of social pressure not to be gay in certainly a lot of the country is certainly more extreme, and really not fair to compare. Is Collins a weak dude? He is certainly weaker than some, but the fact that he has come out and did not go through with the marriage means he is stronger than many other who have buckled under the immense weight of social pressure. Collins also lives in a country that legally says gay people have less protected rights for protection against discrimination or get married/civil unioned, which while you may disagree with legalizing gay marriage, you cannot deny the effect of stigmatizing gay relationships as different.

 

[Kieran]

Good post, Riotbeard, thanks...

 

[Riotbeard]

Thanks! I think these are great conversations, when everybody argues with a level head and keeps their language towards each other respectful. The biggest problem in American politics (you can speak for your country) is both sides prefer to avoid these types of debate, and thus we never end up discussing any of it or attempting to understand how other people feel about issues, and thus where they are coming from. Likewise when people do usually discuss tough political issues, it immediately devolves into name calling instead of being content disagreeing with someone and still respecting them.

 

[calitennis127]

The guy has no ex-wife and no kids. And I believe some are treading on the ground of imagination by getting into "car parks and toilets," as well. There's a little site called google.com, if you've never heard of Jason Collins, and you might try it before posting opinions about his life choices. There was an ex-girlfriend, but apparently she has been interviewed, and supports him.

I think the OP about his coming out in one of the major US men's sports is an important news event. Based on some of the reactions in this thread, I guess we can see why. Men's sports has been considered a bit of a "brick-wall" in terms of acceptance of homosexuality, but that appears to be changing. Plenty of straight athletes have come out in support of tolerance in the major sports, in the last few years, and many athletes have spoken out in support of Jason Collins' decision. It can only be for the good.

Lol. Apologies - I was merging him and the character mentioned by JLLB into the same person and getting wires crossed.

LOL. I'm guilty of skimming, often, as well. But you said before you don't know who this guy is, and you don't know why this is a big news item. Look, most of us never knew who he was, either. He's not LeBron James. But, as has been discussed in the media rather a lot of late, over here in the US, there was never, until now, any out-gay active player in our football, baseball, hockey or basketball. (NFL, MLB, NHL, or NBA, to use the acronyms, and be specific.) These are the big-money, high-profile sports on the men's side, here. Collins being an active player and coming out is huge. It IS a 'Jackie Robinson' moment. (And you can google him, too. )

This is not at all comparable to Jackie Robinson. As many black Americans have gone on record stating, the comparison of the struggle of African-Americans in decades past to the gay rights movement of today is a ridiculous one.

Collins is an inconsequential player and simply a propped-up hero for a silly movement.

 

[Moxie]

This is not at all comparable to Jackie Robinson. As many black Americans have gone on record stating, the comparison of the struggle of African-Americans in decades past to the gay rights movement of today is a ridiculous one.

Collins is an inconsequential player and simply a propped-up hero for a silly movement.

You may have personal objections to this particular civil rights struggle, but to call it "silly" is insensitive. What Jason Collins did was brave. It certainly can't be considered a "career move," since there is no precedent for it in the major US men's sports. And it is likely to help kids coming up who are struggling with their own sexuality, and acceptance.

 

[calitennis127]

You may have personal objections to this particular civil rights struggle, but to call it "silly" is insensitive.

I don't have "personal" objections. I have philosophical and rational objections to this moronic movement. I am personally not too concerned about being sensitive to historical ignorance and blatant stupidity, which is what the cause for gay rights puts on full display constantly.

What Jason Collins did was brave.

Complete myth, created by a media attitude that is more interested in truly creating its own narrative than describing reality.

Bravery is standing up to those with power and influence when you know they will oppose you. When so many prominent people, ranging from Bill Clinton to Kobe Bryant and Oprah, come out in support of you and the media glorify you for a full week, you are not showing exceptional bravery.

Bravery is demonstrated by someone like Alexander Solzhenitsyn. Please don't trivialize the word by applying it to some third-rate, irrelevant NBA player for announcing at age 34 that he is gay. That is infantile.

It certainly can't be considered a "career move," since there is no precedent for it in the major US men's sports.

How does the fact that there is no precedent mean that it couldn't be a business move? Don't businesspeople pride themselves on innovation and doing new things?

The guy guaranteed himself another contract when he probably wouldn't have gotten one otherwise. It is entirely possible that this factored into his decision.

And it is likely to help kids coming up who are struggling with their own sexuality, and acceptance.

Ahhhh, please don't make me cry. I feel warm and cuddly inside now.

Only in America - and I mean, only in America - could people actually talk about homosexuality and sodomy in the most pious terms, as if it amounts to kneeling before an alter or honoring the dead. It astonishes me how they pull this off. It shows that people don't even know what the concept of piety means anymore, to the point that they couldn't even knowledgeably object to it (which would at least be a respectable philosophical position).

I personally have known and been around numerous homosexuals. On a personal level, I have gotten along with some, disliked others, and were indifferent to others still - so they were just like any other group of people. But the absurdity of describing the homosexual lifestyle in reverential, sanctimonious, and pious terms is one of the most mind-boggling and stupid things I have ever witnessed in my life. It is off-the-charts and incalculable.

I would respect a case made for nihilism on philosophical grounds much more than this moronic attempt on the part of the American media to describe the homosexual lifestyle in pious terms.

Only in America - and I mean, only in America - could this be done. Our most prominent newspaper (the New York Times) will write glowingly of gay rights paraders throwing condoms onto the alter of St. Patrick's Cathedral or an artist dipping a crucifix in urine, while at the same time characterizing the act of sodomy as a venerable action and one that is supposed to make me cry with empathy.

Good grief.

 

[Fiero425]

This is not at all comparable to Jackie Robinson. As many black Americans have gone on record stating, the comparison of the struggle of African-Americans in decades past to the gay rights movement of today is a ridiculous one.

Collins is an inconsequential player and simply a propped-up hero for a silly movement.

You may have personal objections to this particular civil rights struggle, but to call it "silly" is insensitive. What Jason Collins did was brave. It certainly can't be considered a "career move," since there is no precedent for it in the major US men's sports. And it is likely to help kids coming up who are struggling with their own sexuality, and acceptance.

Somebody had to be the first! He will be immortalized in history and be that trailblazer we needed so much! :clap :angel: