Hoops - NBA/Basketball Talk

[brokenshoelace]

“I just tried to get a good shot,” Westbrook said of his contested 22-foot jump shot. “I should have passed it to Serge (Ibaka). That was a bad decision on my part. He was wide open. I should have hit him for an open shot.”

With 2.1 seconds remaining, the Thunder had one final chance to tie or win the game. But when Westbrook darted toward the left sideline to receive an inbounds pass from Dion Waiters, he was immediately double teamed by Joakim Noah and E’Twaun Moore, causing him to step out of bounds and give the ball back to the Bulls.

“I shouldn’t have forced it,” Westbrook said. “I should have just waited and let Dion (go to) another option.”


Good to see Russ acknowledging his mistakes. He did the same after the Phoenix game. Like I said, Westbrook is an unbelievable player. He's a point guard version of Lebron as far as dominating the game from start to finish, wreaking havoc, and getting obscene stats (even more than Lebron these days), but in the clutch, I don't always A) trust his decision making and B) trust him to actually make the shot as he's not a very good jump shooter. So yeah, I want the ball in Durant's hands.

 

[the AntiPusher]

“I just tried to get a good shot,” Westbrook said of his contested 22-foot jump shot. “I should have passed it to Serge (Ibaka). That was a bad decision on my part. He was wide open. I should have hit him for an open shot.”

With 2.1 seconds remaining, the Thunder had one final chance to tie or win the game. But when Westbrook darted toward the left sideline to receive an inbounds pass from Dion Waiters, he was immediately double teamed by Joakim Noah and E’Twaun Moore, causing him to step out of bounds and give the ball back to the Bulls.

“I shouldn’t have forced it,” Westbrook said. “I should have just waited and let Dion (go to) another option.”


Good to see Russ acknowledging his mistakes. He did the same after the Phoenix game. Like I said, Westbrook is an unbelievable player. He's a point guard version of Lebron as far as dominating the game from start to finish, wreaking havoc, and getting obscene stats (even more than Lebron these days), but in the clutch, I don't always A) trust his decision making and B) trust him to actually make the shot as he's not a very good jump shooter. So yeah, I want the ball in Durant's hands.

Hopefully in the next few years Russell's decision making will mature. Durant is the man acourse when the game is on the line, however there isn't no wavier in RW to take the shot if others are hesitating.

 

[the AntiPusher]

I never said you were ignorant. Cali said "I'm not surprised Broken doesn't know this" thus clearly implying that I'm ignorant, and I'm reminding him that I wasn't the one who made the original claim. I'm not calling you ignorant.

I do however, disagree with you. No offense but you do bring up the "ex players said so and so" a lot, as if it's gospel, both in tennis and basketball. Some ex players have also said Lebron is better than Jordan, that doesn't mean they're right.

Like, how is Lebron soft? What exactly about him that is soft? This isn't the 90's anymore. If he had retaliated against Harden he would have been in trouble with the NBA, with sponsors, etc... I'm no Lebron fan but I don't see why he's soft at all.

BS, no worries about the ignorant comment..

All.. You don't have to have a malady to respond to someone kicking you in the man private parts. Harden deserves a extremely hard foul. As for bringing up ex players a lot.. the reason is to show it just not a the current players who make these statement but players that played previously.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/21709581/michael-jordan-says-lebron-would-not-be-as-successful-in-his-era

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/06/dennis-rodman-michael-jordan-lebron-james

They are saying the game today is softer and there is no question. But that's due to how strict the NBA has become. And can we really take Rodman seriously when he says Lebron would be an average player in the 80's and 90's. The only thing average about Lebron in terms of bball skills are his free throws and outside shooting.

My point wasn't to compare the 80's and 90's to today's game but you all are missing the point about LBJ. What would happen is Harden kicked Dwade in the private parts. Would Dwade do a Artest, I doubt it. Rather, Dwade would give him a stern tongue lashing and a hard foul the next time he is defending him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBoM7fo9nrM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI7eTHUA8WQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he4OY6gJNX4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFQamund2cE

 

[DarthFed]

^ And Wade would be hurting his team by giving a flagrant foul. Wade is a bit of a dirty player but I don't think the bad injury to Rondo was intentional as you are implying.

The question I have for you is this; would Harden have kicked Lebron in the balls 20 years ago if they were in the NBA then? Would he have kicked him in the balls if it was in a pick-up game? Probably not IMO. And that's why comparing his toughness to someone in the 80's and 90's is foolish. The players aren't softer...the league is. Harden would've thought twice about doing it if he thought Lebron could get away with beating the shit out of him.

 

[the AntiPusher]

^ And Wade would be hurting his team by giving a flagrant foul. Wade is a bit of a dirty player but I don't think the bad injury to Rondo was intentional as you are implying.

The question I have for you is this; would Harden have kicked Lebron in the balls 20 years ago if they were in the NBA then? Would he have kicked him in the balls if it was in a pick-up game? Probably not IMO. And that's why comparing his toughness to someone in the 80's and 90's is foolish. The players aren't softer...the league is. Harden would've thought twice about doing it if he thought Lebron could get away with beating the crap out of him.

why comparing his toughness to someone in the 80's and 90's is foolish.

Darth, what does Dwade and Rondo has to do with the 80's and 90's , not a darn thing. Bottom line, Harden choose the right person to pull that crap on.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Steph Curry is good at Basketball: https://vine.co/v/OEpiUhvu71p

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Steph Curry is good at Basketball: https://vine.co/v/OEpiUhvu71p

Kerr's reaction after was priceless...

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Westbrook one turnover away from a quadruple double

They did a great job stopping Derozan in the second half and look like they will close the deal here..

 

[brokenshoelace]

In fairness to Russ, 8 of his turnovers came in the first half, so he tidied things up in the second. I'll take the TO's (though obviously not as many) if it means he's as in control as he was in crunch time. Much better than he was in the Bulls and Phoenix games. Made the right passes, got Ibaka/Kanter involved, and took (and made) the right shot.

What do you know, he's having the best stretch of his career when he's in control and posting up career high assist numbers, rather than "being set loose." With Russ, it's not actually the number of shots that matters to me (especially with Durant out, I mean, who else is going to take the shots), but rather, that the quality of the shots. He wasn't forcing anything, he was getting to the hoop, drawing up fouls, and taking the right jumpers. Great performance on the whole. Even the turonvers were actually a result of him trying to make a dish rather than run out of control like he's on skates.

That pick and roll with Kanter on the low block (with Russ posting up) is such a great play. I hope they go to it more often. Props to Kanter and Ibaka for giving OKC a dominating inside game, which is what they've been lacking. If Russ continues to develop this sort of chemistry with Kanter, and OKC uses him properly, they could really be something, at least next year. The only thing I wonder about, especially this season, is what happens when Durant is back. Russ is doing such a great job at getting everyone else involved, but you gotta believe Durant's return means Kanter and Ibaka won't be getting nearly as many shots, and the PnR's with Russ will drop. We'll see. But obviously, Durant being back is never a bad thing.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Kanter and Ibaka impressed me.

 

[calitennis127]

Wait, that's what makes someone soft or not? Being hip-hopish? Sheesh.

Actually, you're right. An NBA or NFL player who is tatted up is no more likely to be tough than a Canadian tennis player.

Raonic is just as tough as Kam Chancellor or Kenyon Martin.

There are times of the year where you start sounding dumb on purpose. That's my only explanation. Who the hell said anything about a tennis player? You brought up Lebron (who I don't think is soft at all, and this is just a Skip Bayless narrative that people started echoing) and somehow implied that he's probably tougher than Jordan because he's more hip-hopish.

I swear you're the most single-minded person I've ever seen. Tattoo's? Great athlete? Urban individualism? Yay!

Can you follow the course of a discussion?

AP made the initial point that LeBron is soft given his body type for allowing the likes of Harden to cheap-shot him without retaliating. So in response to AP saying that he is soft, I brought up the entirely relevant matter of LeBron being a modern-day hip-hop icon, which he is. You jumped in and made the hilariously clueless remark that this has nothing to do with his toughness.

First of all, the reason that I brought up LeBron's hip-hopish identity is that it has everything to do with how and whether he can retaliate. If you go back and read what I said to AP, I brought up his cultural identity to explain why it would be so dangerous for him to ferociously retaliate as AP suggested he should. Jordan could get away with some measure of retaliation because his persona was much more palatable - he did his Hanes and Wheaties commercials and he didn't come across as a street punk. LeBron, on the other hand, came up with the And-1 Mixtape, AAU-ball generation that flaunted tattoos, baggy clothes, flashy dribble moves, and eye-popping dunks. And, clearly, LeBron has taken immense heat for being part of that culture - just look at how he was vilified in the summer of 2010 for how he left Cleveland and then in the summer of 2011 after the Finals against Dallas.

LeBron was a young member of the generation of players that really rubbed Middle America the wrong way and led to David Stern enforcing a dress code, because everyone was wearing baggy jeans and throwback jerseys to the arenas. You may not remember this, growing up outside of America, but for months there was constant discussion about the dress code and David Stern really made a point of enforcing it to improve the image of the NBA, especially after the Malice at the Palace. Personally, I much preferred that era of basketball to the current one, when the NBA is promoting complete fruitcakes like Stephon Curry and Tony Parker, but nonetheless, I am just stating what the realities were. You can interpret them how you wish, but that's what the NBA once was.

What AP is suggesting could lead to something like this - not as severe but as widely condemned, and it would just lead to another round of 2010/2011 vitriol hurled at LeBron, his character, and his decisionmaking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXEFMfd9c1A

 

[calitennis127]

This is akin to saying NFL linebackers and defensive linemen are soft because they don't (can't) light up the QB like they used to. Lebron is playing in a different NBA, one in which major retaliation will get a major suspension. That's not about being soft, it's just keeping your cool which has to be tough sometimes for him.

This is exactly right, Darth, and if LeBron was to act out and it resulted in a Malice-at-the-Palace type situation where everyone was throwing blows, then how would it look for LeBron's image that he was suspended 11 games? It would give his critics endless ammunition.

I can't really blame Broken for not knowing this, but AP should: look at how Iverson was lambasted for his self-presentation or how bad the publicity for the NBA was after Artest, Stephen Jackson, and Jermaine O'Neal did what they did in 2004.

What the hell is wrong with you? I don't know this? When did I ever imply Lebron was soft? Jesus, someone else makes a claim and somehow I'm the ignorant one.

God you're obnoxious sometimes.

I never attributed to you the view that LeBron was soft. I was arguing against you asking me to defend what you were implying was an absurd position: that someone being hip-hopish makes them tough. I would say that since the type of musical culture and style in question has mostly emanated from urban areas where violence is rife, then yes, it is more likely to make someone very "tough" in an athletic sense. Marshawn Lynch did not grow up in a university town where half the students were white hippies wearing tideye shirts marching for gay rights and ending genocides in Africa. Dwyane Wade came from a city where there were over 80 homicides in one weekend last year and his mother overdosed on heroin. He was more likely to be athletically fearless than someone who came from a standard suburban environment.

When someone joins Dr Dre in concert, has a widely publicized friendship with Jay Z, stands on stage with Dwyane Wade like he is Tupac (after ticking off an entire city to celebrate joining a new team no less), does nasty one-handed tomahawk dunks whenever he gets the chance, makes rap songs after winning an NBA championship, and overall just plays a very physical style of basketball, then, I'm sorry, but to suggest that this has nothing to do with his personal identity (including his toughness) is simply inaccurate. LeBron himself has said that every night growing up in Akron he heard sirens. When you come from an environment like that, you are more likely to be tough in athletic contexts.

 

[DarthFed]

^ And Wade would be hurting his team by giving a flagrant foul. Wade is a bit of a dirty player but I don't think the bad injury to Rondo was intentional as you are implying.

The question I have for you is this; would Harden have kicked Lebron in the balls 20 years ago if they were in the NBA then? Would he have kicked him in the balls if it was in a pick-up game? Probably not IMO. And that's why comparing his toughness to someone in the 80's and 90's is foolish. The players aren't softer...the league is. Harden would've thought twice about doing it if he thought Lebron could get away with beating the crap out of him.

why comparing his toughness to someone in the 80's and 90's is foolish.

Darth, what does Dwade and Rondo has to do with the 80's and 90's , not a darn thing. Bottom line, Harden choose the right person to pull that crap on.

I'd say he picked the right era to do it in. That's the point. I think Harden would do the same to Wade, Kobe and others if he lost his cool.

 

[calitennis127]

By the way, Iverson is my favorite player in the post-Jordan era, but I don't blame Cali for not knowing that because once again he just makes assumption that he treats as facts (the same way he made an assumption about my religion) like an idiot.

If that's so, then how can you be so seemingly indifferent or oblviious to the cultural debates surrounding Iverson and his generation?

Iverson himself was bombarded by questions about how he could put out a rap album. He was vilified in many circles for his self-presentation. And then there was the legendary practice rant, which may have been funny but was also treated as a very serious example of African-American athletes behaving in a way that many saw as immature and unprofessional. Let's not forget that Iverson was shunned from the NBA at a relatively young age for a superstar (33). There are plenty of deadweight players who go until 40 in the NBA, but Iverson was turned away because of his perceived incompatibility with anything less than star status.

And the issues we are talking about extend well beyond Iverson. You like to mock my use of the term "urban individualism", but it is entirely on point and appropriate when we discuss the numerous NFL wide receivers (all African-American) who have clashed with the power structure of the sports world in the last 15 years, most notably Owens and Moss. Darth and AP certainly know what I am referring to there. NFL wide receivers are routinely referred to as divas, and that is because they are seen as individualistic prima donnas. I mostly defend these players, but I am talking about something that is very real here. The reason no one likes to talk about these things is that everyone nowadays enjoys being completely superficial about anything that is culturally related to race.

Oh - and did I forget to mention the controversy around Michael Vick in 2007? Or Richard Sherman last year?

The examples are endless.....

And if you think I am generating a conversation that doesn't exist, well no, I am simply extending one that I have observed for years. Take this little video from a black journalist commenting on these types of issues as one example (just two minutes and the tip of the iceberg on all of these topics):

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpCKg9mYMWM[/video]

 

[calitennis127]

Kudos to Kyrie Irving.....what a game. 7 for 7 on 3-pointers. Cleveland had no business winning that one but they did because of him.

Great win for Cleveland and it should improve their confidence going forward, but they better pray that they won't have to face San Antonio in the Finals if they are going to guard the pick-and-roll like that. The Spurs got a wide open lay-up pretty much every time they called a pick-and-roll.

 

[DarthFed]

^ It was an entertaining game. I actually stopped watching (had it on in the background) with 2:30 left and the Spurs up 9 or 10. I started watching with 3 seconds left before Irving hit a buzzer beating trey to send it to OT. Combination of Kyrie going nuts and missed free throws led to them blowing it.

Completely agree with you in regards to Cleveland's defense. It just isn't that good to begin with and the Spurs exploited them left and right. On top of the pick-and-roll, the Cavs were consistently getting burned on basic cuts to the hoop. San Antonio passes too well to let teams get away with that. C Webb and Barkley made great points throughout the game, mostly that Cleveland was making a lot of tough shots while the Spurs didn't have to take any tough shots.

 

[calitennis127]

Darth, I really have to disagree on the commentary of Barkley and C-Webb. Yes, they inevitably said a couple of accurate things but for the most part it was just a constant stream of nonsense. My friend and I nearly put the game on mute, given some of these gems. I really couldn’t take it.

1) Both of them complaining that Kevin Love wasn’t getting the ball enough - this is really becoming tiresome. I would expect your standard pat basketball nerd coach to say that, but two former players who were great athletes? It is plain as day that Love is so limited athletically that he can’t be a dominant player at the NBA level. At this point, this talk about getting Love the ball more needs to just end. Love is not as good as everyone has made him out to be and the Cavs have made IMMENSE efforts to set him up. He is just so unathletic and so limited that it doesn’t matter. He looks like he is 41 years old.

2) Webber calling Diaw guarding Love a “mismatch” - it was funny to hear C-Webb blabbler on about how Love had this supposed mismatch, only for Love to get the ball in the post a few possessions later and get stuffed twice on the same play by the Spurs post players. Neither Webber nor Barkley said anything about that.

3) Webber saying that Love has something like an advanced skill set and can do “anything on a basketball court” – is he serious?

4) Barkley saying that JR Smith is a “follower” and that the problem in New York was that he was following “idiots”. Well, let me see here. Who are the idiots he is referring to? Carmelo? Barkley has said over and over for years that Carmelo is the best pure scorer in the NBA. Does he consider him an idiot? Amare? Well Amare wasn’t playing half the time because he was hurt, and besides, Barkley has repeatedly complimented his game over the years. Woodson? Barkley said that Woodson did a “great job” two years ago, especially in mentoring Smith. Phil? Barkley has said time after time that he respects Phil for having so many rings. So who are these idiots in New York that he is referring to?

5) Barkley saying that Mozgov was the most important trade acquisition. This is somewhat of a conventional view, but I just find it to be utter nonsense. There is no doubt that Mozgov, at his size, has a presence, but to say that he has helped more than Smith is just silly. What made it even more frustrating was that Barkley refused to comment on any of Mozgov’s oafish plays last night, such as 1) missing a straightforward putback dunk, 2) getting stuffed by Duncan before he even got off the floor on a basic step-through move off the catch, resulting in a jumpball, 3) failing to turn around on defense with a pass whizzing right by his ear for an easy Spurs lay-up, and 4) Parker making him spin around with a light elbow on the baseline, resulting in an easy lay-up for Parker. Does this awesomeness exceed the benefits of having Smith?

6) While the Mozgov-was-most-important argument is kind of main stream, C-Webb topped it by remarking that the trade acquisitions, starting with Mozgov and then going to Shumpert and Smith, really helped the team. So he was implying that in order of importance JR was third. Maybe C-Webb should check his facts and note that Shumpert has been hurt for most of the time he has been on the Cavs roster. It would be one thing if Shumpert was actually playing, but he has been out half the time.

7) Barkley saying that this was a “great game” – maybe that is so in the sense of competitive fire and virtuoso scoring on the part of Irving, but I don’t see how it’s a great game at the NBA level if each time a team calls a basic pick-and-roll they get a lay-up. That is middle school stuff. Kind of like your comments on how the Packers squandered the NFC Championship.

 

[DarthFed]

Well I will say you were paying closer attention than me. I only remember some of what you're saying above. Barkley, no surprise, is pretty over the top and a slave to the moment. Kyrie made some amazing moves, had great left handed finishes and you immediately have Barkley say he's never seen anyone finish with their left better, never seen anyone with handles that good, etc. Getting past that Barkley does usually tell it how it is and a lot of what he says is insightful. I've seen only a few TNT games this year and Webber is often disappointing. I just thought with Barkley there it was a bit better, and I'll admit I'm partial, I liked them both as players. C-Webb not finishing the deal with the Kings really pissed me off and then he got hurt at a fairly young age.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Darth, I really have to disagree on the commentary of Barkley and C-Webb. Yes, they inevitably said a couple of accurate things but for the most part it was just a constant stream of nonsense. My friend and I nearly put the game on mute, given some of these gems. I really couldn’t take it.

1) Both of them complaining that Kevin Love wasn’t getting the ball enough - this is really becoming tiresome. I would expect your standard pat basketball nerd coach to say that, but two former players who were great athletes? It is plain as day that Love is so limited athletically that he can’t be a dominant player at the NBA level. At this point, this talk about getting Love the ball more needs to just end. Love is not as good as everyone has made him out to be and the Cavs have made IMMENSE efforts to set him up. He is just so unathletic and so limited that it doesn’t matter. He looks like he is 41 years old.

2) Webber calling Diaw guarding Love a “mismatch” - it was funny to hear C-Webb blabbler on about how Love had this supposed mismatch, only for Love to get the ball in the post a few possessions later and get stuffed twice on the same play by the Spurs post players. Neither Webber nor Barkley said anything about that.

3) Webber saying that Love has something like an advanced skill set and can do “anything on a basketball court” – is he serious?

4) Barkley saying that JR Smith is a “follower” and that the problem in New York was that he was following “idiots”. Well, let me see here. Who are the idiots he is referring to? Carmelo? Barkley has said over and over for years that Carmelo is the best pure scorer in the NBA. Does he consider him an idiot? Amare? Well Amare wasn’t playing half the time because he was hurt, and besides, Barkley has repeatedly complimented his game over the years. Woodson? Barkley said that Woodson did a “great job” two years ago, especially in mentoring Smith. Phil? Barkley has said time after time that he respects Phil for having so many rings. So who are these idiots in New York that he is referring to?

5) Barkley saying that Mozgov was the most important trade acquisition. This is somewhat of a conventional view, but I just find it to be utter nonsense. There is no doubt that Mozgov, at his size, has a presence, but to say that he has helped more than Smith is just silly. What made it even more frustrating was that Barkley refused to comment on any of Mozgov’s oafish plays last night, such as 1) missing a straightforward putback dunk, 2) getting stuffed by Duncan before he even got off the floor on a basic step-through move off the catch, resulting in a jumpball, 3) failing to turn around on defense with a pass whizzing right by his ear for an easy Spurs lay-up, and 4) Parker making him spin around with a light elbow on the baseline, resulting in an easy lay-up for Parker. Does this awesomeness exceed the benefits of having Smith?

6) While the Mozgov-was-most-important argument is kind of main stream, C-Webb topped it by remarking that the trade acquisitions, starting with Mozgov and then going to Shumpert and Smith, really helped the team. So he was implying that in order of importance JR was third. Maybe C-Webb should check his facts and note that Shumpert has been hurt for most of the time he has been on the Cavs roster. It would be one thing if Shumpert was actually playing, but he has been out half the time.

7) Barkley saying that this was a “great game” – maybe that is so in the sense of competitive fire and virtuoso scoring on the part of Irving, but I don’t see how it’s a great game at the NBA level if each time a team calls a basic pick-and-roll they get a lay-up. That is middle school stuff. Kind of like your comments on how the Packers squandered the NFC Championship.

Cali, One thing that I have learned about the TNT NBA analyst, they have their own biases and issues with various players and team but they are pretty spot on 70 % of the time. I think I favor Kenny Smith's and C Webb's opinions more than Barkley's. However, listening to Charles is like taking bad medicine, he comes across harsh but is usually pretty accurate. I typically just look forward to when the Fatboy is wrong and has to Eat crow. BTW, if he says that Kevin McKale is the most underrated and had the best low post moves of anyone that played the 4 spot in history. He says all these great things about Kevin for the past 15 years but Kevin NEVER have said anything positive about Charles.:laydownlaughing

 

[calitennis127]

The way that LeBron passed the ball in the 4th quarter yesterday at Orlando was just phenomenal.....what a show. Man was that impressive, and it was nice to see him finally set JR up for some threes. If they get that little tactic going of LeBron making a conscious effort to set JR up for jumpers throughout the game, they will be lethal.

Shumpert also made some really nice defensive plays in the first way, particularly the one steal and breakaway dunk. And James Jones finally did something worthwhile when he hit a couple threes in the fourth quarter.