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calitennis127

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Broken_Shoelace said:
calitennis127 said:
Why couldn't they have just started all three? No one ever seems to answer that question.

For the same reason they don't start Reggie Jackson (not that he's the player Harden is). Scott Brooks loves his starting shooting guard to be able to guard people. That's why he was playing Sefolosha, and now starts with Andre Roberson.

Well Sefolosha was never anything special at guarding people, and he was at best neutral on offense. This was no excuse for not starting Harden.

Broken_Shoelace said:
Thunder's style of play is built upon strong defense. Harden would have continued to play plenty of minutes, especially when it matters, so him being a starter or not is almost irrelevant, but again, Thunder's offense in the half court is atrocious and they have to work so hard to score, especially in late game situations when the defense tightens and the game slows down.

No one ever leveled this criticism on them when Harden was there; in fact, they were complimented for their late-game execution most of the time.

What you are espousing here is the conventional role-centered philosophy that has damaged the NBA game so much. This philosophy goes something like this:

X is our franchise player
Y is our second star
Z is our shooter
A is our post banger
B is our shotblocker
C is our heady veteran presence
D is our perimeter defender
E is our Sixth Man
F is our back-up point guard

And, voila, we have a true TEAM!

This philosophy misunderstands basketball on a basic level, and I must say that the Spurs have exposed its failings, albeit in a fashion that I find repugnant. It is better to have a team of 5 relatively equal and active parts than a team that puts all the weight on one or two players to be Superman.

The reality is that the more individual skill and individual talent you have on your team, the more of a threat to score you are, and therefore the more pressure you put on opposing defenses. That's why Harden was a better choice than Ibaka.

Broken_Shoelace said:
Now I guess with Harden, they'd have one more option to go to, but in an already ISO heavy offense with no ball movement, you're only making it worse.

Again, this is the conventional wisdom of many analysts and GM's, but I entirely disagree. "Isolation ball" is often denigrated, but for the wrong reason. The problem isn't isolation ball per se; it's more so the pace of it and how well-prepared the surrounding players are to feed off of it. Putting the ball in the hands of someone who is a threat to drive to the basket or pull-up from deep is NEVER a bad thing in principle.

If you have 4 players standing around watching a tired Carmelo Anthony launch up shots every possession in the fourth quarters of tight games (i.e. the 2013-2014 New York Knicks), then yes, isolation ball is bad. But if you have three guys going out to make aggressive scoring plays decisively (like the Thunder did in their 2012 run to the Finals), then iso ball is actually a great thing. You can use it for setting up wide-open shooters and getting post players easy finish opportunities, not to mention getting to the line and getting the opposition in foul trouble.

Broken_Shoelace said:
It's not that Westbrook or Durant have a problem deferring (at least not anymore in Westbrook's case, even though he can still be erratic), it's that it's literally "your turn, my turn, whoever is hot's turn" as opposed to proper offense.

Was it "improper offense" when they beat the holy San Antonio Spurs in the 2012 Western Conference Finals, with three of their four victories being blowouts by near or over 20 points?
 

brokenshoelace

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calitennis127 said:
Well Sefolosha was never anything special at guarding people, and he was at best neutral on offense. This was no excuse for not starting Harden.


True, but that's Scott Brooks for you. I mean, Derek Fisher played 38 minutes in game 6 against the Spurs last year, and somehow guarded Tim Duncan in overtime (incidentally, Duncan rolled back the years), while Jeremy Lamb got no playing time.


calitennis127 said:
No one ever leveled this criticism on them when Harden was there; in fact, they were complimented for their late-game execution most of the time.

I mean, they're an insanely talented team. Nobody ever said otherwise. When you have so many game winners on your team, you'll likely execute well in late game situations. The fact that they haven't been doing that as much isn't simply because Harden is no longer there, but because they're not playing the percentages. No matter how good Durant is, when you run him to the ground all year long and he's playing crazy minutes game in and game out, takes one difficult shot after the next in every possession, there is going to come a time where that just won't work. Again, Scott Brooks is the problem.

calitennis127 said:
What you are espousing here is the conventional role-centered philosophy that has damaged the NBA game so much. This philosophy goes something like this:

X is our franchise player
Y is our second star
Z is our shooter
A is our post banger
B is our shotblocker
C is our heady veteran presence
D is our perimeter defender
E is our Sixth Man
F is our back-up point guard

And, voila, we have a true TEAM!

This philosophy misunderstands basketball on a basic level, and I must say that the Spurs have exposed its failings, albeit in a fashion that I find repugnant. It is better to have a team of 5 relatively equal and active parts than a team that puts all the weight on one or two players to be Superman.

I don't disagree. But that wasn't what I'm saying. I'm simply saying Ibaka is essential for how the Thunder play Basketball. It's not that having Harden would necessarily be detrimental, but if forced to choose, I too would have went with Ibaka. Nick Collison cannot be your starting PF, especially with Kendrick Perkins as your center. The Thunder are an athletic team that excels int he open court, and rely on athletic guys on defense. Collison and Perk are pretty much the opposite. In fact, the only reason they get as much playing time as they do is because Brooks is a weirdo and is obsessed with "veterans."


calitennis127 said:
Again, this is the conventional wisdom of many analysts and GM's, but I entirely disagree. "Isolation ball" is often denigrated, but for the wrong reason. The problem isn't isolation ball per se; it's more so the pace of it and how well-prepared the surrounding players are to feed off of it. Putting the ball in the hands of someone who is a threat to drive to the basket or pull-up from deep is NEVER a bad thing in principle.

If you have 4 players standing around watching a tired Carmelo Anthony launch up shots every possession in the fourth quarters of tight games (i.e. the 2013-2014 New York Knicks), then yes, isolation ball is bad. But if you have three guys going out to make aggressive scoring plays decisively (like the Thunder did in their 2012 run to the Finals), then iso ball is actually a great thing. You can use it for setting up wide-open shooters and getting post players easy finish opportunities, not to mention getting to the line and getting the opposition in foul trouble.

But that's exactly how the Thunder play these days. 4 guys stand around doing nothing as Westbrook dribbles and dribbles, until he either takes his shot or passes it to Durant with about 10 seconds remaining. He'll come off a screen and shoot, or go one on one. Even Reggie Jackson, who used to be aggressive and a spark off the bench, is now settling for terrible jumpers.



calitennis127 said:
Was it "improper offense" when they beat the holy San Antonio Spurs in the 2012 Western Conference Finals, with three of their four victories being blowouts by near or over 20 points?

Ibaka was integral to those wins, and it showed last year when he was missing in the first two games against the Spurs, and the impact he had when returning. The Thunder are the Spurs Achilles heel because they're too athletic for them. The Spurs just can't contain Westbrook, and Ibaka torments them on defense.

Nobody's saying having Harden wouldn't have been great. Of course he would. He played well in that 2012 Spurs series himself. But you're sacrificing balance when you give up Ibaka. Can you name me any team that won a championship with the equivalent of Perk and Collison in the front line?
 

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Well, I watched the second half of JR's first game in Cleveland. 3 quick observations:

1) Contrary to AP's and Darth's mythical narrative, JR did not try to shoot 25-foot jumpers every time he touched the ball. Rather, he took barely 5 shots, and 2 of them were half-court heaves at the ends of quarters. JR passed the ball pretty much every time he touched it.

2) Kevin Love's athletic limitations are rather conspicuous, to put it politely.

3) Kyrie Irving has excellent dribbling skills, but his attitude is too loose and frivolous for him to be a dominant player. He is soft at heart, which is why he chose to go to college at Duke of all places. He tries to act like a streetballer, but no real streetballer would ever even contemplate going to that team out of high school.
 

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calitennis127 said:
Well, I watched the second half of JR's first game in Cleveland. 3 quick observations:

1) Contrary to AP's and Darth's mythical narrative, JR did not try to shoot 25-foot jumpers every time he touched the ball. Rather, he took barely 5 shots, and 2 of them were half-court heaves at the ends of quarters. JR passed the ball pretty much every time he touched it.

2) Kevin Love's athletic limitations are rather conspicuous, to put it politely.

3) Kyrie Irving has excellent dribbling skills, but his attitude is too loose and frivolous for him to be a dominant player. He is soft at heart, which is why he chose to go to college at Duke of all places. He tries to act like a streetballer, but no real streetballer would ever even contemplate going to that team out of high school.
My reply is inline below

1) Contrary to AP's and Darth's mythical narrative, JR did not try to shoot 25-foot jumpers every time he touched the ball. Rather, he took barely 5 shots, and 2 of them were half-court heaves at the ends of quarters. JR passed the ball pretty much every time he touched it.

(AP)There need to be a greater showing of JR's body of work with the Cavs then just 1 game. Let's revisit this post in late March or April when the pressure is on JR to produce.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12135579/jr-smith-cleveland-cavaliers-pledges-shoot-hip

2) Kevin Love's athletic limitations are rather conspicuous, to put it politely.( AP) Agreed

3) Kyrie Irving has excellent dribbling skills, but his attitude is too loose and frivolous for him to be a dominant player. He is soft at heart, which is why he chose to go to college at Duke of all places. He tries to act like a streetballer, but no real streetballer would ever even contemplate going to that team out of high school.
.( AP) Agreed
 

calitennis127

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Well, JR had an excellent game with 27 points (on 11-22 shooting Darth and AP, not 11-40) and Waiters had a great game with 15 points tonight, including the game-winning three-pointer. Broken may have gotten his OKC wish with Waiters providing somewhat of a Harden effect, giving them a talented third scorer. And JR will be dynamite with LeBron, which I can't wait to see. For my money, LeBron can't get healthy soon enough.

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Cleveland play OKC in the Finals.....I actually look at those two teams as the favorites in the long run. The Warriors will fizzle out, and they don't really have a #1 option for playoff time. The Bulls' limitations will also become apparent in the playoffs.
 

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I'm big fan of Waiters. Like I said when it happened, this was a good trade by OKC, especially since they gave up Lance Thomas in exchange. Reggie Jackson has been disappointing this season. He failed to make an impact when Durant/Russ were hurt, and now is playing like he knows his days on the team are numbered. I'm of fan of Reggie and he can be a starting point guard on a non elite team, but he's lost much of his aggression. By contrast, Waiters is aggressive and will provide that Harden effect off the bench (but obviously not to the same level since he's no James Harden). Very good move by OKC.

Now, I think they need to trade Jackson and or Jeremy Lamb (I'm a fan of both, but the former has plateaued with the team and the latter isn't getting his chance because Scott Brooks is weird) for a decent big man.

JR had a good game apparently. Curious to see what becomes of Cleveland in the second half of the season, but unlike Cali, I'd be absolutely surprised to see them in the finals this year. They're just not ready. The team has yet to find its identity, they're in some sort of internal turmoil with plenty of speculation, their coach is unproven, Lebron isn't healthy, team chemistry isn't there, they're too defensively shaky, etc... Just a lot of issues this year.
 

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Apparently if one had to choose for one player in the NBA to take the Shot, Cali feels secure with JR taking that shot. JR had a good game vs the Warriors, We Shall see
 

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Darth, I didn't know the Bucks were playing the Bulls tonight. Just passed the game on WGN on my way to the Seattle game.
 

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Detroit is 8-2 after Josh Smith left. Talk about addition by subtraction.

I will be at the Air Canada Center for the Raps-Detroit game this Monday. I am sure Drummond remembers the dunk James Johnson had on him, and the fight afterwards. And one of the best quotes ever in basketball after the game by Johnson :

"“That was nasty, right? I cocked that joint back and banged on him,”

Just love it !
 

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the AntiPusher said:
Apparently if one had to choose for one player in the NBA to take the Shot, Cali feels secure with JR taking that shot. JR had a good game vs the Warriors, We Shall see

I said that Waiters hit the big shot for OKC.
 

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calitennis127 said:
the AntiPusher said:
Apparently if one had to choose for one player in the NBA to take the Shot, Cali feels secure with JR taking that shot. JR had a good game vs the Warriors, We Shall see

I said that Waiters hit the big shot for OKC.

In fairness, KD really was the one who did all the work that quarter. He took over, brought them back in the game, gave them the lead, then kicked it out on that last time after getting doubled (or driving to the basket I can't recall). But yes, this is going to be the importance of Waiters, as Reggie Jackson has shown that he's just not reliable enough in these situations.

The thing about OKC in these scenarios is that their two stars don't necessarily have to take the final shot all the time. KD commands so much attention in late game situations, and Russ can drive to the basket so easily that it sets up open shots for someone like say, Anthony Morrow in the corner, or Waiters like we saw in that last game.
 

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Broken_Shoelace said:
calitennis127 said:
the AntiPusher said:
Apparently if one had to choose for one player in the NBA to take the Shot, Cali feels secure with JR taking that shot. JR had a good game vs the Warriors, We Shall see

I said that Waiters hit the big shot for OKC.

In fairness, KD really was the one who did all the work that quarter. He took over, brought them back in the game, gave them the lead, then kicked it out on that last time after getting doubled (or driving to the basket I can't recall). But yes, this is going to be the importance of Waiters, as Reggie Jackson has shown that he's just not reliable enough in these situations.

The thing about OKC in these scenarios is that their two stars don't necessarily have to take the final shot all the time. KD commands so much attention in late game situations, and Russ can drive to the basket so easily that it sets up open shots for someone like say, Anthony Morrow in the corner, or Waiters like we saw in that last game.


I didn't mean to say that Waiters was the main reason they won; I am just saying that he is an important addition. I would also add that unlike the rest of the OKC roster, he doesn't need Durant and Westbrook to get him open. He can create his own shot, plus he just brings an overall athletic dimension that makes him a more significant force than his non-KD/Russell teammates.
 

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Broken_Shoelace said:
JR had a good game apparently. Curious to see what becomes of Cleveland in the second half of the season, but unlike Cali, I'd be absolutely surprised to see them in the finals this year. They're just not ready. The team has yet to find its identity, they're in some sort of internal turmoil with plenty of speculation, their coach is unproven, Lebron isn't healthy, team chemistry isn't there, they're too defensively shaky, etc... Just a lot of issues this year.

Broken, you know that the playoffs - like Slams in tennis - are a different ballgame. Who on earth out of the East is going to beat the Cavs if they have a healthy LeBron? I would say Washington, maybe. But that's it.

When the Bulls score 70+ points in a playoff game two times in a row, then maybe we can talk about the chance that they could take Cleveland to 6 in a playoff series.
 

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calitennis127 said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
JR had a good game apparently. Curious to see what becomes of Cleveland in the second half of the season, but unlike Cali, I'd be absolutely surprised to see them in the finals this year. They're just not ready. The team has yet to find its identity, they're in some sort of internal turmoil with plenty of speculation, their coach is unproven, Lebron isn't healthy, team chemistry isn't there, they're too defensively shaky, etc... Just a lot of issues this year.

Broken, you know that the playoffs - like Slams in tennis - are a different ballgame. Who on earth out of the East is going to beat the Cavs if they have a healthy LeBron? I would say Washington, maybe. But that's it.

When the Bulls score 70+ points in a playoff game two times in a row, then maybe we can talk about the chance that they could take Cleveland to 6 in a playoff series.

I agree about the playoffs being a different ballgame obviously, and in that regard I might favor the Cavs with a healthy Lebron over say...the Hawks. But the Bulls are legit, the Cavs are going to need more than just a healthy Lebron to beat them, much less in less than 6 games. Kevin Love will get harassed by the Bulls' front line, and if D-Rose is even close to his level (which he hasn't been) he destroys Kyrie, the way every elite point guard does. Lebron is Lebron though. Gotta respect his abilities and everything he's done.
 

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calitennis127 said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
calitennis127 said:
I said that Waiters hit the big shot for OKC.

In fairness, KD really was the one who did all the work that quarter. He took over, brought them back in the game, gave them the lead, then kicked it out on that last time after getting doubled (or driving to the basket I can't recall). But yes, this is going to be the importance of Waiters, as Reggie Jackson has shown that he's just not reliable enough in these situations.

The thing about OKC in these scenarios is that their two stars don't necessarily have to take the final shot all the time. KD commands so much attention in late game situations, and Russ can drive to the basket so easily that it sets up open shots for someone like say, Anthony Morrow in the corner, or Waiters like we saw in that last game.


I didn't mean to say that Waiters was the main reason they won; I am just saying that he is an important addition. I would also add that unlike the rest of the OKC roster, he doesn't need Durant and Westbrook to get him open. He can create his own shot, plus he just brings an overall athletic dimension that makes him a more significant force than his non-KD/Russell teammates.

Yeah absolutely. Like I said, I've been high on this Waiters trade since the beginning and I said as much in this thread.
 

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Well, we got one more little sample of what JR can do alongside LeBron. He had 29 tonight.

It was commonplace to say that he was just going to be 4th option on this team, but that is quickly going to change. He is significantly more talented than Irving and leaps and bounds more talented than Kevin Love. He will become the de facto second option except for the times that Irving is a complete ballhog.
 

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The Bulls lost to Washington again, even with Rose having an excellent first half. Wall is very much a top player, and Beal has a sweet shot. Beal's pull-up game is very impressive.

The Wizards are just better than the Bulls, and hopefully the Bulls' hype will die down once and for all after they fail this season. I would expect that roster to be blown up after the playoffs because its ceiling is a second-round playoff loss.