Fedalovic Wars

[atttomole]

As I've been saying, the Fedal rivalry's been a little overblown as Nadal owned Roger from very early on; even off the clay! Surprisingly Murray had early success against Roger as well! Djokovic took him in a couple early spots, but dominated him after 2012! He defeated "The Faux Goat" several times saving MP's in Majors! I'm still shaking my head over Novak being 3-0 in Wimbledon finals over Roger who's supposed to be the grass KING! IMO, the title should reside w/ Sampras even though one short Roger & tied w/ Djokovic!

I remember you weee complaining about the young generation being gutless. You got your wish when your ‘favorite’ Djokovic was taken to the cleaners twice at Wimbledon by Carlito. I thought you were happy to see the young generation finally taking over, but you disappeared from the boards. I remember persuading you to come back to the boards, and I am happy you are still with us here my friend. If the story repeats itself this year, please don’t disappear. We enjoy your company here!!

 

[Kieran]

I see your point, but... What you are asking me to imagine is to simply rebuild Nadal as a completely different player. You said it yourself, "instead of clay". Nadal was built for clay, and I don't mean it as a detriment, but as a compliment. Clay is my favorite surface. Being slower than the rest, it gives you time to think even during a point. The irregular nature of it give you strange bounces, all kinds of stuff that might disrupt your rhythm. Nadal's psyche is perfect to deal with all that. It is his most defining characteristic, more than his physicality, his forehand, his manias, you name it. Saying that is not the equivalent of "if my grandma had a moustache she would be my grandpa". It is much more radical than that.

It was the rough mentality of Nadal that overwhelmed Roger. Roger even struggled on grass against him in 2007, when an injury in the fourth detailed Rafa’s momentum. Sampras had a similar mentality…

 

[Fiero425]

I remember you weee complaining about the young generation being gutless. You got your wish when your ‘favorite’ Djokovic was taken to the cleaners twice at Wimbledon by Carlito. I thought you were happy to see the young generation finally taking over, but you disappeared from the boards. I remember persuading you to come back to the boards, and I am happy you are still with us here my friend. If the story repeats itself this year, please don’t disappear. We enjoy your company here!!

Thanks! I'm still around! I just don't watch as much tennis on TV! It's not as entertaining IMO w/ all players just whacking away mindlessly! There's very little in the way of constructing a point w/ some real strategy! It's about hitting the ball hard & when in doubt, take even bigger swipes at the ball! Their arms are going to fall off one day; men & women!

 

[atttomole]

It was the rough mentality of Nadal that overwhelmed Roger. Roger even struggled on grass against him in 2007, when an injury in the fourth detailed Rafa’s momentum. Sampras had a similar mentality…

Similar mentality maybe, but not game. Nadal had the mentality and the game to trouble Federer, especially on clay. Sampras was great, but I am not sure if his mentality/game combination was similar to Nadal’s. If it was, then he would have tried a bit more to improve his clay court game. Nadal worked hard to improve his grass court game. Federer, well, he was an all surface player who lost multiple times on clay to Nadal.

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

Similar mentality maybe, but not game. Nadal had the mentality and the game to trouble Federer, especially on clay. Sampras was great, but I am not sure if his mentality/game combination was similar to Nadal’s. If it was, then he would have tried a bit more to improve his clay court game. Nadal worked hard to improve his grass court game. Federer, well, he was an all surface player who lost multiple times on clay to Nadal.

Not to mention, Sampras didn't really give the best effort at the Australian Open most years. However, when Sampras was on his game, especially at Wimbledon and the US Open, he was darn near unbeatable at those slams.

 

[Kieran]

Similar mentality maybe, but not game. Nadal had the mentality and the game to trouble Federer, especially on clay. Sampras was great, but I am not sure if his mentality/game combination was similar to Nadal’s. If it was, then he would have tried a bit more to improve his clay court game. Nadal worked hard to improve his grass court game. Federer, well, he was an all surface player who lost multiple times on clay to Nadal.

The game was different then. The courts on clay were on polar opposite ends of the spectrum to grass until the new millennium. They're still different but not as extremely as they were. Pete used to play with a two-handed backhand but he learned young that if he wanted to win Wimbledon, he couldn't do it that way. And more than anything, he wanted to win Wimbledon. This choice was instrumental in his winning 7 titles there, and never losing a final. But it came at the expense of giving him a better shot in Paris.

Mentally he was similarly alpha like Rafa...

 

[El Dude]

The game was different then. The courts on clay were on polar opposite ends of the spectrum to grass until the new millennium. They're still different but not as extremely as they were. Pete used to play with a two-handed backhand but he learned young that if he wanted to win Wimbledon, he couldn't do it that way. And more than anything, he wanted to win Wimbledon. This choice was instrumental in his winning 7 titles there, and never losing a final. But it came at the expense of giving him a better shot in Paris.

Mentally he was similarly alpha like Rafa...

There's actually a year for it: the grass courts were changed in 2002, slowing them down. So it may be less that clay has changed, and more that grass slowed making the Channel Double -- while still impressive, not nearly as much as it was back in the day. Still only five men and

CHANNEL DOUBLES OF THE OPEN ERA
ATP:
Rod Laver 1969
Bjorn Borg 1978, 1979, 1980
Rafael Nadal 2008, 2010
Roger Federer 2009
Noak Djokovic 2021
Carlos Alcaraz 2024

WTA:
Margaret Court 1970
Evonne Goolagong 1971
Billie Jean KIng 1972
Chris Evert 1974
Martina Navratilova 1982, 1984
Steffi Graf 1988, 1993, 1995, 1996
Serena Williams 2002, 2015

That's a pretty talented bunch. In fact, it includes arguably the most talented men's players (with Mac, Lendl, and Sampras excluded), and the six best women (with a nod to Seles). Kind of interesting how that works out - and bodes well for little Carlos.

It is really too bad that Jimmy Connors didn't get a chance at Roland Garros in 1974 as he was banned - he missed out on not only a Channel Double, but a chance at a Grand Slam. The AO was a joke that year and for most of the 70s (the top ranked player he defeated on route was #29 John Alexander! Only finalist Phil Dent was also in the top 50, at #49) - but he was killing everyone, with the second highest Win% in Open Era history: 95.96% (95-4).

Anyone, this is not to say that the Channel Double isn't still impressive, but it is hard to say just how difficult it now is with the Big Three skewing everything - and it certainly isn't as hard as it was before 2002. I imagine SInner could do it too, even though he hasn't won either Slam yet.

EDIT: Missed Goolagong.

 

[El Dude]

OK, I whipped up a chart. This will be hard to display as there's no good way to fit 55 years on a screen with full names.

You might want to click on it to read it. But basically I did the ATP and WTA - but looked at not only Channel Doubles, but alas "partial" (1 W, 1 F) and "semi" (2 Fs).

I'm guessing only Fiero will recognize all the initials, especially the early WTA. But look at the end of this post for a guide.

Anyhow, notice how many. more there were among the women - and also, how many were in the "lesser" categories. And can be recognize what a beast Steffi Graf was?

MEN:
RL = Rod Laver (magenta)
BB = Bjorn Borg (green)
JM = John McEnroe (pink)
IL = Ivan Lendl (purple)
SE = Stefan Edberg (olive green, yellow letters)
JC = Jim Courier (light blue)
AA = Andre Agassi (blue)
RF = Roger Federer (red)
RN = Rafael Nadal (orange)
ND = Novak Djokovic (dark violet)
AM = Andy Murray (light green)
CA = Carlos Alcaraz (brown/orange)

WOMEN:
AJ = Ann Jones (pale red)
MC = Margaret Court (red)
EG = Evonne Goolagong (light brown)
BJK = Billie Jean King (blue)
CE = Chris Evert (gold)
OM = Olga Morozova (pink)
HM = Hana Mandilova (maroon)
MN = Martina Navritilova (rich blue)
SG = Steffi Graf (forest green)
MS = Monica Seles (purple-pink)
MSV = Aranxta Sanchez Vicario (rust)
MH = Martina Hingis (bright pink)
SW = Serena Williams (dark blue)
VW = Venus Williams (lavender)
JH = Justin Henin (light green)

 

[El Dude]

On a completely different note, how about some RAFA TRIVIA: What was the only clay tournament that Rafa ever played in which he went out in the first round? Bonus: Who did he lose to?