Cincinnati Masters 2025, Ohio, US - ATP Masters 1000

[Fiero425]

I don't watch a lot, but it seems as if they're abusing Zverev; putting him on in the night sessions again & again! Not sure if he prefers it or not!

 

[Fiero425]

I see our favorite "Hotdog" took 3 sets to get by Dzumhur (who?)! Most of the top players are being pushed, if not eliminated; Shapo by a LL! Due to the depth of tennis; more about how the game is played w/ abandon, it almost makes no difference or sense to keep seeding down to #32; esp. in the Masters where the fields have been watered down!

 

[Fiero425]

Our baby, Holger got by Michelsen in straight sets! I was concerned for RUNE as Alex's been on a heater! Every time I look up, he's on TV!

 

[El Dude]

OK, I'm starting to get a tiny-itsy-bitsy worried about Fonseca. OK, not worried but just...hmm...questioning. Why isn't he beating #136 in the world? After winning his first title, he hasn't reached the QF of any tournament, large or small. Why not? Why isn't he improving?

I know development comes in jumps and plateaus, and when you look at the careers of other young greats-in-the-making, Fonseca's arc isn't uncharacteristic. So really, this is me being impatient. He has all the tools to be great - or at least, very, very good (but I think great). My "questioning" would really be more apt if, say, he was in the same place come next clay season. For me, that's the time round -- first half next year -- that I think we want to see the next jump by - from a top 50 guy to a top 20 guy, and perhaps working his way up to top 10ish by the end of 2026, with his elite breakout in 2027. I've predicted that to be his timeline, and I'll stick with it. But...losing to #136?

 

[Fiero425]

OK, I'm starting to get a tiny-itsy-bitsy worried about Fonseca. OK, not worried but just...hmm...questioning. Why isn't he beating #136 in the world? After winning his first title, he hasn't reached the QF of any tournament, large or small. Why not? Why isn't he improving?

I know development comes in jumps and plateaus, and when you look at the careers of other young greats-in-the-making, Fonseca's arc isn't uncharacteristic. So really, this is me being impatient. He has all the tools to be great - or at least, very, very good (but I think great). My "questioning" would really be more apt if, say, he was in the same place come next clay season. For me, that's the time round -- first half next year -- that I think we want to see the next jump by - from a top 50 guy to a top 20 guy, and perhaps working his way up to top 10ish by the end of 2026, with his elite breakout in 2027. I've predicted that to be his timeline, and I'll stick with it. But...losing to #136?

We're going to have to adjust to a more normal era of tennis! Not only the comp. is tougher, the way the game is played has equalized the talent pool that goes rather deep; down into the 100's! Going for broke doesn't take much thought or special training! The elites aren't as safe in getting players to choke away a match! As I've said a thousand times, The Big 3 have really spoiled us w/ their longevity, consistency, & overall greatness to own the tour like no players have done in the history of the game! We won't see their "like" again! Even though Sinaraz are on top & seem to have some staying power, it won't get anywhere near what we've been honored to witness the last 25 yrs.! I always thought the real Golden Age would've been when the USA ruled w/ Sampras, McEnroe, Connors, Courier, Chang, & Agassi! We even had a seriously good B-Team w/ the likes of Davis, Washington, Mayotte, Gilbert, Krickstein, Arias, & Martin among others! We were a freakin' powerhouse "ON PAPER!" They found ways to waste all that talent though; esp. in Davis Cup! Sweden, Czechoslovakia, Germany, Argentina, among other countries began to assert themwelves!

Carlos & Jannik have a rivalry, but do we really think it'll hit 30-50 matches? I think it'll end up being something special like Borg/McEnroe w/ only 14 match-ups! Sincaraz may get to 20-30, but I doubt it! One or both will start getting upset! We can't depend on them making final after final! The tour's just too tough IMO! I'm giving them more credit than Lost Gens I & II though! They've already been surpassed in Major & the Masters & YEC totals will add up eventually!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

OK, I'm starting to get a tiny-itsy-bitsy worried about Fonseca. OK, not worried but just...hmm...questioning. Why isn't he beating #136 in the world? After winning his first title, he hasn't reached the QF of any tournament, large or small. Why not? Why isn't he improving?

I know development comes in jumps and plateaus, and when you look at the careers of other young greats-in-the-making, Fonseca's arc isn't uncharacteristic. So really, this is me being impatient. He has all the tools to be great - or at least, very, very good (but I think great). My "questioning" would really be more apt if, say, he was in the same place come next clay season. For me, that's the time round -- first half next year -- that I think we want to see the next jump by - from a top 50 guy to a top 20 guy, and perhaps working his way up to top 10ish by the end of 2026, with his elite breakout in 2027. I've predicted that to be his timeline, and I'll stick with it. But...losing to #136?

Fonseca was very error prone today in his match 8 winners to 23 UFE, I feel at times he just rushes his shots, he did that yesterday in his match against Foki
I recently read an article from Ricardo Piatti who has coached many young players at his academy, eg Sinner, who went there at age 14, he said he dosent panic if a younger player coming on the tour dosent at first doesent exceed expectations, he said he will usually evaluate their games at around 150 matches. Seeing Fonseca up to the other day only played his 49th tour match do you think we should wait and see how he handles the rest of the year, just my thoughts

 

[Fiero425]

OMG, old man Mannarino has upset 2 seeds who were on heaters this season; #19 Machac & #13 Paul! WTF? Andrian sorta massages the ball around the court! How in the world is he doing this? Sorry to have missed it! He has a game! Federer barely survived him on Wimbledon grass a few yrs. ago in an early round!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

29 yo old Frenchman Bonzi who took out Musetti the other day takes care of Tsitsipas 67(4) 63 64
37 yo Mannarino took out the error prone Tommy Paul in 3 sets 57 63 64

 

[don_fabio]

OK, I'm starting to get a tiny-itsy-bitsy worried about Fonseca. OK, not worried but just...hmm...questioning. Why isn't he beating #136 in the world? After winning his first title, he hasn't reached the QF of any tournament, large or small. Why not? Why isn't he improving?

I know development comes in jumps and plateaus, and when you look at the careers of other young greats-in-the-making, Fonseca's arc isn't uncharacteristic. So really, this is me being impatient. He has all the tools to be great - or at least, very, very good (but I think great). My "questioning" would really be more apt if, say, he was in the same place come next clay season. For me, that's the time round -- first half next year -- that I think we want to see the next jump by - from a top 50 guy to a top 20 guy, and perhaps working his way up to top 10ish by the end of 2026, with his elite breakout in 2027. I've predicted that to be his timeline, and I'll stick with it. But...losing to #136?

I think it's time to lower expectations at this point. He is getting beaten a lot since that first title and by the players that he can compete with, not top 10 guys or even top 20. A Masters QF/SF at this point is something I would like to see him reach, but looks like his level is not there yet.

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

OMG, old man Mannarino has upset 2 seeds who were on heaters this season; #19 Machac & #13 Paul! WTF? Andrian sorta massages the ball around the court! How in the world is he doing this? Sorry to have missed it! He has a game! Federer barely survived him on Wimbledon grass a few yrs. ago in an early round!

The 2021 Wimbledon Federer wasn't the real Federer. It was clear that he was compromised, and he was lucky that he wasn't a first round exit. 2019 Federer would have wiped Mannarino in 3 sets.

The fact that Federer has an exhibition match in October makes me believe that his body is somewhere close to healed. I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled a Manny Pacquiao and competed on the ATP Tour after he is named a Hall of Famer (which will happen this fall, as Federer is eligible for the 2026 class). I would love to see Federer at least play Wimbledon one more time (like Martina Navratilova did in 2004). Federer's last official match being a loss to Hurkacz at 2021 Wimbledon doesn't really feel like closure.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

4.5 hours and one rain delay after it started Rublev (9) finishes off Popyrin 76(5) 67(5) 75

 

[El Dude]

We're going to have to adjust to a more normal era of tennis! Not only the comp. is tougher, the way the game is played has equalized the talent pool that goes rather deep; down into the 100's! Going for broke doesn't take much thought or special training! The elites aren't as safe in getting players to choke away a match! As I've said a thousand times, The Big 3 have really spoiled us w/ their longevity, consistency, & overall greatness to own the tour like no players have done in the history of the game! We won't see their "like" again! Even though Sinaraz are on top & seem to have some staying power, it won't get anywhere near what we've been honored to witness the last 25 yrs.! I always thought the real Golden Age would've been when the USA ruled w/ Sampras, McEnroe, Connors, Courier, Chang, & Agassi! We even had a seriously good B-Team w/ the likes of Davis, Washington, Mayotte, Gilbert, Krickstein, Arias, & Martin among others! We were a freakin' powerhouse "ON PAPER!" They found ways to waste all that talent though; esp. in Davis Cup! Sweden, Czechoslovakia, Germany, Argentina, among other countries began to assert themwelves!

Carlos & Jannik have a rivalry, but do we really think it'll hit 30-50 matches? I think it'll end up being something special like Borg/McEnroe w/ only 14 match-ups! Sincaraz may get to 20-30, but I doubt it! One or both will start getting upset! We can't depend on them making final after final! The tour's just too tough IMO! I'm giving them more credit than Lost Gens I & II though! They've already been surpassed in Major & the Masters & YEC totals will add up eventually!

I honestly have no idea what to expect from Sincaraz. I could see it go strong for a few years, then sputter out by 2030 or so as they enter the 27-29 range and start getting pummeled by guys 5 years younger. I could also see them being the perfect "children of the Big Three" and go another 10-15 years and wrack up 15-20 Slams a piece. Who knows.

But yeah, it is rather shocking to compare American men's tennis of the last 20 years to the great era of Connors to Agassi (1973ish to 2005ish). A very different world. To think that after Roddick, the best American men of the last two decades are players like John Isner and Taylor Fritz, and guys like Mardy Fish and Sam Querrey probably creep into the top 20 of the post-Agassi era.

 

[El Dude]

Fonseca was very error prone today in his match 8 winners to 23 UFE, I feel at times he just rushes his shots, he did that yesterday in his match against Foki
I recently read an article from Ricardo Piatti who has coached many young players at his academy, eg Sinner, who went there at age 14, he said he dosent panic if a younger player coming on the tour dosent at first doesent exceed expectations, he said he will usually evaluate their games at around 150 matches. Seeing Fonseca up to the other day only played his 49th tour match do you think we should wait and see how he handles the rest of the year, just my thoughts

Yeah, I hear you. I know my concern is irrational, but it is probably augmented on me really want him to attain greatness. But I think of every great having a development period. I mean, consider the number of matches before winning a big title by the Big Three - which I think could be the best simple signal for entering the elite (though sometimes, such as in Mensik's case, it happens earlier, and they take awhile to catch up):

Novak: Match #114 (Miami 2007, 19 yrs, 10 m)
Rafa: #111 (MC 2005, 18 yrs, 10 m)
Roger: #210 (Hamburg, 20 yrs, 9 m)

To put that another way, just going by age, Fonseca is about 10 months younger than Novak was when he won his first big title, and almost two years younger than Roger. He's a couple months older than Rafa, but Rafa had played more than twice as many ATP level matches.

The point being, not just see how he does to finish this year, but deep into next.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Another heat related retirement LL Luca Nardi advances 62 2-1 as Mensik retired due to the heat

 

[atttomole]

OMG, old man Mannarino has upset 2 seeds who were on heaters this season; #19 Machac & #13 Paul! WTF? Andrian sorta massages the ball around the court! How in the world is he doing this? Sorry to have missed it! He has a game! Federer barely survived him on Wimbledon grass a few yrs. ago in an early round!

The Sampras fan in you can’t stop thinking about Federer!!

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

The Sampras fan in you can’t stop thinking about Federer!!

I would love to see Federer return to Wimbledon one more time, if only for a proper farewell. Federer getting bageled in his official final set of tennis just doesn't feel right to me.

Come to think of it, the pandemic really screwed up the ending of Federer's career. From the injury at the 2020 Australian Open, to pulling out of the 2021 French Open, and him never competing at the US Open after 2019. Federer never really got a proper farewell moment at any of the slams.

 

[atttomole]

I would love to see Federer return to Wimbledon one more time, if only for a proper farewell. Federer getting bageled in his official final set of tennis just doesn't feel right to me.

Come to think of it, the pandemic really screwed up the ending of Federer's career. From the injury at the 2020 Australian Open, to pulling out of the 2021 French Open, and him never competing at the US Open after 2019. Federer never really got a proper farewell moment at any of the slams.

It will be nice to see the Great One again, if for a single match. His tennis was dazzling and I am hoping we can see another player with a similar skill set soon.

 

[lomaha]

To bad for Tiafoe. Hope he recovers in time for the US Open.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

To bad for Tiafoe. Hope he recovers in time for the US Open.

Yes he was runner up at Cincy last year

 

[mrzz]

OK, I'm starting to get a tiny-itsy-bitsy worried about Fonseca. OK, not worried but just...hmm...questioning. Why isn't he beating #136 in the world? After winning his first title, he hasn't reached the QF of any tournament, large or small. Why not? Why isn't he improving?

I know development comes in jumps and plateaus, and when you look at the careers of other young greats-in-the-making, Fonseca's arc isn't uncharacteristic. So really, this is me being impatient. He has all the tools to be great - or at least, very, very good (but I think great). My "questioning" would really be more apt if, say, he was in the same place come next clay season. For me, that's the time round -- first half next year -- that I think we want to see the next jump by - from a top 50 guy to a top 20 guy, and perhaps working his way up to top 10ish by the end of 2026, with his elite breakout in 2027. I've predicted that to be his timeline, and I'll stick with it. But...losing to #136?

Not a coherent response, but a few useful points to fit in your curve:

On the eye test, Fonseca does seem to be bellow his own previous highs. It is normal to any player, though.

Hard fact: his (physical) growth is still ongoing. He is a few centimeters taller than he was last year.

People here are saying he lost quite a bit of time in PR events in Brazil.

He keeps bringing changes to his game (some will backfire).

I am worried in the short term as well. Long term, same forecast.