Christian terrorist attack in Pakistan kills 57.....

[calitennis127]

Hey buddy, I've seen countless examples of good people of liberal conscience voting for things that only bring death and evil, especially to the most vulnerable.

Would you agree with me that this is a frailty common to humanity, and not restricted to religion? Your friend Weinberg wrote a groovy aphorism that doesn't hold up to scrutiny...

I will agree with you on that. This whole thing started , once more, because Cali things only one religion is responsible for the whole bloodshed in the worlds history, and I know it to be false and I know that every religion has blood on their hands. That is all.

As far as the Weinberg quote...honestly , you cannot see it happening? You have never seen examples?

I have said this before: It is a lot easier to convince people to do horrible things in the name of God then, say, in the name of gravity. Religion touches deeper places inside people, sometimes darker places. When George Bush said, right before he attacked Iraq (for false reasons of course) "God is on our side" , he instantly made it a religious war in the minds of all Muslims. That easy... And Muslims, as you know, do not need a lot of encouragement for violence...

Right now , a solid %50 of Americans believe the literal creation in Genesis, that the world is 6-7 thousand years old. If that does not scare you for the future of mankind, I don't know what would.:nono

Well, there are things which scare me more than this, I must admit, the growing barbarity of secularism in the west, to be honest.

Kieran, what I don't think you quite understand and certainly not Murat in this instance is that the whole evolution debate is rigged by anti-Christian liars and bigots from the start.

The purpose of the evolution conversation in the U.S. is simply to make Christianity look stupid. It is not to actually learn anything about science. What most people who believe in evolution and most people who don't believe in evolution share is this one commonality: they know nothing about science. Bill Maher, for instance, knows no more about science than redneck Gary Haybail in Arkansas. He simply takes the pro-Darwin side in the evolution debate because it is a convenient stick to beat religion with.

Education in America with respect to evolution amounts to this: 1) an utterly pitiful and childish attempt on the part of most Christians to learn theology without Latin, Greek, and history, and 2) a public education system that suppresses the humanities while propping up a couple pro-evolution dogmas not for the purpose of scientific inquiry, but to increase contempt for religion.

 

[calitennis127]

I also would like to pose this question to Murat: could a Christian in good conscience orchestrate a deliberate, systematic genocide of people who do not fit into an ideal vision of society (as Stalin did with the kulaks and Hitler did with the Jews)?

It seems like it takes secular political ideology to make people do such things.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

How come you never posted a link or started a thread in July 2011 Cali, when Anders Behring Breivik, who identified himself as a "Christian crusader" killed 77 people, mostly children, in Norway?In his 1500 page manifesto he said " Immigrants were undermining Norway's traditional Christian values"

I know , I know...he was crazy...or "interpreted" the books wrong...or just did not believe in the "right" kind of Christianity, am I right?

Terrorism is horrible and no religion is innocent. If you say Breivik is not the right kind of Christian, then some others will say Atta was not the right kind of Muslim, Netenyahu is not the right kind of Jew, etc....Until you question "religion" itself, understand the fact that what you believe in is a %95 geographical coincidence , that if you were born in Tora Bora, most likely you were going to have jihadist tendencies , and that there is someone else somewhere that believes equally strongly that THEIR God is the only true God and they are willing to kill and die for it, this world is going nowhere...

:nono

Well, for one thing, Breivik and modern jihadists are pikers compared to atheists such as Lenin or Pol Pot. Let's get that out of the way first.

But as for Christianity v. Islam in causing terrorism, Murat, there is no comparison either doctrinally or empirically in terms of results. Even if we were to say that Breivik was motivated by Christian doctrines calling for the murder of non-Christians (which is incorrect), then that would still be just one attack. Sunni Muslim groups, on the other hand, have accounted for just some of the following in recent years:

- Tanzania and Kenya embassy bombings
- 9/11
- 7/7 London attacks
- 3/11 Madrid attacks
- Beslan school hostage taking
- Mumbai bombing
- Nigeria mall bombing
- Boston marathon bombing
- Fort Hood shooting by Nidal Hassan
- Countless suicide attacks in Iraq and Palestine
- Canadian Parliament attack

How about the violent response of riots to the Danish cartoons and Pope Benedict's remarks in 2006?

Give me a parallel list of Christians doing the same kind of things and then we can talk. But you can't, because there is no comparison.

Pretty much everywhere in the world where there is a boundary between an Islamic society and a non-Islamic society, there is major tension because of jihadism. Jihadist militants and insurgents are littered throughout the Middle East, Africa, Central Asia, Europe, and North America. There is no parrallel whatsoever in Christianity today.

To the dead, it does not matter what interpretation of what religion was used.
Not one is better than the other. They all have blood in their hands.

Murat, there are two main arguments to make in response to this which you clearly have no response for:

1) Religion is simply one of many causes of war throughout history. It is not the main cause or the only cause. Wars are typically very complex affairs that incorporate a number of different factors. You single out religion in a blatantly unfair manner.

2) The history of Islamic imperialism is far more extensive than that of Christian imperialism. In other words, if you make this comparison, the conversation is pretty definitive:

The times throughout history when Muslims have picked up the Qu'ran or the other texts referencing the actions and teachings of Muhammad and said "we are going to kill because of what Allah wills and what Muhammad did and taught"

v.

The times throughout history when Christians have picked up the Bible or referenced the example of Christ and said "we are going to kill because of what God teaches or what the Church wants"


Muhammad led armies. He was a warlord. Christ was such a peacenik that even many atheists at least grant that "yeah, he was a pretty good guy; probably not divine, but he was a good person". Muslims, on the other hand, can pull off beheadings and then refer to Ibn Ishaq's biography to say "Muhammad did it". When they make this claim, they are called bad Muslims by non-Muslim post-Christian leaders who purport to know more about Islam than Muslims themselves.

Isn't it funny when Barack Obama tells the "Islamic State" that it isn't really Islamic?

But I do have responses, and just because you do not accept them does not make them any less valid: Your first point,

1- I am NOT saying religion is the only cause of pain and suffering. I am saying it is one of the biggest causes. Because it is much easier to get people going to war in the name of God than , say, evolution by natural selection. It just IS. Tell people their God and beliefs are under attack, they take it personal. I gave you do George Bush example? Was I wrong? When he said "God is on our side" didn't he make it a religious war in the eyes of the Muslims, even though it had nothing to do with religion? Would people rally behind him if he said " Big Oil is behind us...let's go sacrifice ourselves so Haliburton can make a buck" ? Please tell me you understand the difference....

2-Christian imperialism caused the colonization of most of Africa, India, Pakistan and let to the enslaving of millions of people. Because "those savages" needed to learn who Christ was. Since slavery is condoned explicitly in the Bible, not a lot of people had a problem with it. Hell, USA was founded by slave owners who said all men are created equal...:lolz:


Of Course Muhammed led armies. He was a war time prophet. Everything you read in the Koran , the good, the bad, the ugly, is all about that period of time of war, against the Qoureyshi...Nothing more, nothing less. Anyone that reads the Koran and wants to expand its meaning is an idiot...That's how Islamic Terrorists are born. Of course the policies of the West only adds fuel to the fire.

I tried to explain to you before but you don't get it. It is the INTERPRETATION that kills people.

Tell me, what do you understand from the following verse:

“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I also would like to pose this question to Murat: could a Christian in good conscience orchestrate a deliberate, systematic genocide of people who do not fit into an ideal vision of society (as Stalin did with the kulaks and Hitler did with the Jews)?

It seems like it takes secular political ideology to make people do such things.

But I have already given you examples of that. KKK did it as best as they could, because their mission was to "reestablish Protestant Christian values in America by any means possible" That means was killing and torturing. I am sure they succeeded in terrorizing thousands, no?

I also told you about the Army Of God, who tried hard to eliminate people "who do not fit an ideal vision of their society".

They exist. YOU might not share their beliefs. Doesn't mean they do not believe in what they do.

 

[shawnbm]

I hear what you are saying, Murat, but there is a key distinction--that maniac in Norway was not a religious leader who spoke out for Christians to do that which occurred there. Furthermore, the attack was UNIVERSALLY condemned by dozens of not hundreds of Christian denominations and the Catholic Church, in particular. That is a very far cry from modern Sunni (mostly) Islam. In fact, the opposite happens when these attacks occur; many Muslim leaders and sheiks have to be cajoled to speak out and to do so forcefully. Many don't and, in fact, say this is what happens when X or Y occurs in world politics (speaking of blatant terror attacks on innocents). Medieval writers were right when they said that Islam was spread by the sword, conquest and imposition of Muslim law--that is a historical fact. Only after that occurred did people start to reproduce and more people were born to Muslim parents and brought up with the religion. But for the first thousand years of Islam (and is still the case with jihadists today), the world must be BROUGHT UNDER Islam--one way or another. This is in stark contrast to the Christian ideal, which speaks of conversion of the heart and mind--not the rifle or the sword. Not all religions are equal, from an objective standpoint. I have focused on Christianity and Islam in this response because of the call of the question.

Honestly, that is where the problem lies. Would you change your mind if I recited 100 versus from the Old and the New testament that encourage violence? When you read Samuel 15;3 and it says ""This is what the Lord Almighty says ... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' ", you see conversion of heart and mind???? Come on man...When you hear Peter 2;18 say "“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” you do not for a minute think how slavery was condoned in the US for centuries and maybe, just maybe this verse has something to do with it? Where is the conversion of heart there ?

We have to be honest with ourselves, not live in a fairy tail world. Religions are violent. If you tell me you disregard the violence, only read the happy parts, well, that is great, but it does not change the facts.

I thank you for the reply, Murat, and will keep this brief as it is going to go off on a tangent that is never-ending. I do not know how well you know the Bible, but from the Christian viewpoint, taking those verses as a command to us in the world today is missing the boat, so to speak. The books of the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament were an inspired telling (it is believed) of God's work in the world, but specifically through the people of Israel He chose to make manifest His redemption of the world and us, His creatures. The books of Samuel and Kings were written a thousand years before Christians believe the full and final revelation of the Almighty was made--in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. That changes the dynamic and serves to put into context that which came before. The Christian Church did not throw out the Scriptures they received, but they could see the inspired Truth within it that was made manifest in Christ. Clearly, Jesus taught differently than what you cite and as for the Masters and Slaves issue--that is merely an acknowledgment of the prevailing societal norms of the known world at the time. The idea of an egalitarian democratic public was not in place yet. Slavery in those times was not what many moderns envision it as being. On top of all that, it was understood in Christian theology that the purpose of living in Christ was to transform the world through the Gospel, not overturn it by violence. It necessarily meant that not all things perceived as unjust or against modern notions of liberty could be changed immediately. That is why Saint Paul's message in Philemon and elsewhere spoke to the heart of both masters and slaves--that as long as they lived the Christian ethic between themselves, mercy, compassion, brotherly love and possibly even actual freedom would follow.

Well, that is long enough on this. I still believe equating what happens nearly everyday in the Middle East and elsewhere in the name of Islam is a different "animal" than the very occasional wacko who commits a random act of violence against an abortion clinic (come to think of it, that has not happened in USA in a few years thank God) or does what the guy in Norway did (and I don't know if it was solely on religious versus nativist grounds) on allegedly Christian grounds. That kind of violence is literally and historically in contrast with Christian teaching from the beginning. Again, the opposite appears to be the case with Islam, in particular.

 

[Kieran]

There's more after that, Murat, which explains what St Peter is saying. In no sense is he saying that this is good, or just. In fact, he says it's unjust, but he's making a spiritual point. I'm tapping this on my phone and so can't paste the full words but there's more to it than the snippet you isolated.

I agree! People go to war for religion. But buddy, you agree they go to war when religion isn't even mentioned. And war isn't the only way to take a life, as the liberal west has shown.

You make an interesting point about Muhammad and the Koran. What a pity this isn't commonly known in that troubled region..

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Kieran, what I don't think you quite understand and certainly not Murat in this instance is that the whole evolution debate is rigged by anti-Christian liars and bigots from the start.

The purpose of the evolution conversation in the U.S. is simply to make Christianity look stupid. It is not to actually learn anything about science. What most people who believe in evolution and most people who don't believe in evolution share is this one commonality: they know nothing about science. Bill Maher, for instance, knows no more about science than redneck Gary Haybail in Arkansas. He simply takes the pro-Darwin side in the evolution debate because it is a convenient stick to beat religion with.

Education in America with respect to evolution amounts to this: 1) an utterly pitiful and childish attempt on the part of most Christians to learn theology without Latin, Greek, and history, and 2) a public education system that suppresses the humanities while propping up a couple pro-evolution dogmas not for the purpose of scientific inquiry, but to increase contempt for religion.

So, who is forcing over 100million Us citizens to believe that evolution is a hoax, that the world is only 6 thousand years old and that Jesus rode dinos in his free time? I am quiet knowledgible about evolution myself. I read. Who is stopping everyone from learning this scientific fact called Evolution By Natural Selection? Who is behind this conspiracy? Could it just be that their religious beliefs just does not let them believe in anything else? Who knows?

And really, who cares about Maher. Nobody ever said all atheists are smart. Check out Stephen Hawking for a change...check out Russell, Feynman, Higgs...stop watching HBO for a minute man.

 

[Kieran]

Murat, I have to hand it to you, brother, you're getting it from all of us tonight! :snigger

I'm off to bed now but thanks for the replies, I enjoy these rallies with you because you're a good bloke with a firm handshake when it comes to disagreement... :hug

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I hear what you are saying, Murat, but there is a key distinction--that maniac in Norway was not a religious leader who spoke out for Christians to do that which occurred there. Furthermore, the attack was UNIVERSALLY condemned by dozens of not hundreds of Christian denominations and the Catholic Church, in particular. That is a very far cry from modern Sunni (mostly) Islam. In fact, the opposite happens when these attacks occur; many Muslim leaders and sheiks have to be cajoled to speak out and to do so forcefully. Many don't and, in fact, say this is what happens when X or Y occurs in world politics (speaking of blatant terror attacks on innocents). Medieval writers were right when they said that Islam was spread by the sword, conquest and imposition of Muslim law--that is a historical fact. Only after that occurred did people start to reproduce and more people were born to Muslim parents and brought up with the religion. But for the first thousand years of Islam (and is still the case with jihadists today), the world must be BROUGHT UNDER Islam--one way or another. This is in stark contrast to the Christian ideal, which speaks of conversion of the heart and mind--not the rifle or the sword. Not all religions are equal, from an objective standpoint. I have focused on Christianity and Islam in this response because of the call of the question.

Honestly, that is where the problem lies. Would you change your mind if I recited 100 versus from the Old and the New testament that encourage violence? When you read Samuel 15;3 and it says ""This is what the Lord Almighty says ... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' ", you see conversion of heart and mind???? Come on man...When you hear Peter 2;18 say "“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” you do not for a minute think how slavery was condoned in the US for centuries and maybe, just maybe this verse has something to do with it? Where is the conversion of heart there ?

We have to be honest with ourselves, not live in a fairy tail world. Religions are violent. If you tell me you disregard the violence, only read the happy parts, well, that is great, but it does not change the facts.

I thank you for the reply, Murat, and will keep this brief as it is going to go off on a tangent that is never-ending. I do not know how well you know the Bible, but from the Christian viewpoint, taking those verses as a command to us in the world today is missing the boat, so to speak. The books of the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament were an inspired telling (it is believed) of God's work in the world, but specifically through the people of Israel He chose to make manifest His redemption of the world and us, His creatures. The books of Samuel and Kings were written a thousand years before Christians believe the full and final revelation of the Almighty was made--in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. That changes the dynamic and serves to put into context that which came before. The Christian Church did not throw out the Scriptures they received, but they could see the inspired Truth within it that was made manifest in Christ. Clearly, Jesus taught differently than what you cite and as for the Masters and Slaves issue--that is merely an acknowledgment of the prevailing societal norms of the known world at the time. The idea of an egalitarian democratic public was not in place yet. Slavery in those times was not what many moderns envision it as being. On top of all that, it was understood in Christian theology that the purpose of living in Christ was to transform the world through the Gospel, not overturn it by violence. It necessarily meant that not all things perceived as unjust or against modern notions of liberty could be changed immediately. That is why Saint Paul's message in Philemon and elsewhere spoke to the heart of both masters and slaves--that as long as they lived the Christian ethic between themselves, mercy, compassion, brotherly love and possibly even actual freedom would follow.

Well, that is long enough on this. I still believe equating what happens nearly everyday in the Middle East and elsewhere in the name of Islam is a different "animal" than the very occasional wacko who commits a random act of violence against an abortion clinic (come to think of it, that has not happened in USA in a few years thank God) or does what the guy in Norway did (and I don't know if it was solely on religious versus nativist grounds) on allegedly Christian grounds. That kind of violence is literally and historically in contrast with Christian teaching from the beginning. Again, the opposite appears to be the case with Islam, in particular.

THAT sentence (taking those verses as a command to us in the world today) is the key to everything. THAT is what is happening everyday in the world, someone taking those things literal. Because people have their own versions of everything. That is the problem with religion. YOUR understanding of it is not the same as another's .

 

[shawnbm]

Murat, I have to hand it to you, brother, you're getting it from all of us tonight! :snigger

I'm off to bed now but thanks for the replies, I enjoy these rallies with you because you're a good bloke with a firm handshake when it comes to disagreement... :hug

I could not agree more. I am done with this topic, which I did not start but I did jump in sooooooo...

Goodnight Irene.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Murat, I have to hand it to you, brother, you're getting it from all of us tonight! :snigger

I'm off to bed now but thanks for the replies, I enjoy these rallies with you because you're a good bloke with a firm handshake when it comes to disagreement... :hug

I could not agree more. I am done with this topic, which I did not start but I did jump in sooooooo...

Goodnight Irene.

You guys....:hug:hug:basiate

I am done too, until Cali comes back and tells me who I am and what I am, etc....:snigger

 

[calitennis127]

Kieran, what I don't think you quite understand and certainly not Murat in this instance is that the whole evolution debate is rigged by anti-Christian liars and bigots from the start.

The purpose of the evolution conversation in the U.S. is simply to make Christianity look stupid. It is not to actually learn anything about science. What most people who believe in evolution and most people who don't believe in evolution share is this one commonality: they know nothing about science. Bill Maher, for instance, knows no more about science than redneck Gary Haybail in Arkansas. He simply takes the pro-Darwin side in the evolution debate because it is a convenient stick to beat religion with.

Education in America with respect to evolution amounts to this: 1) an utterly pitiful and childish attempt on the part of most Christians to learn theology without Latin, Greek, and history, and 2) a public education system that suppresses the humanities while propping up a couple pro-evolution dogmas not for the purpose of scientific inquiry, but to increase contempt for religion.

So, who is forcing over 100million Us citizens to believe that evolution is a hoax, that the world is only 6 thousand years old and that Jesus rode dinos in his free time? I am quiet knowledgible about evolution myself. I read. Who is stopping everyone from learning this scientific fact called Evolution By Natural Selection? Who is behind this conspiracy? Could it just be that their religious beliefs just does not let them believe in anything else?

Who knows?

I do.

I am friends with a geologist who is a Lutheran. He is immensely knowledgeable about both science and the early chapters of the Bible. His Christianity has made him a very thoughtful and temperate man, which has also helped him in his scientific inquiries. He cannot stand the "Young Earth Creationists" and their buffoonery. He is actually in the process of writing a book which makes the case that these people who argue that the world is 6,000 years old actually misunderstand and misinterpret the Bible itself.

And that's what I mean when I decry the state of education in America and the Western world. Christians as well as their anti-Christian enemies hardly understand the ancient texts. So these debates are, from the start, superficial and shallow.

Now, as far as your conspiracy question: you missed my point entirely Murat. So I will put it in caps.

EVOLUTION BY NATURAL SELECTION IS NOT TAUGHT BY THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM AS A MATTER OF SCIENCE, BUT AS A MATTER OF ANTI-CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

For you to talk about the evolution debate as if it is just a case of good ole biology teachers trying to show their kids what is scientifically valid is entirely off-base. The way that the atheist/anti-Christian school system present the evolution issue is this: if you are a smart agnostic human being, you believe in evolution. If you are a stupid Christian, then you believe in evolution.

This leads to Christians often being hostile to the official line and saying that they "don't believe in evolution".

But the larger point is that the evolution debate has absolutely nothing to do with pursuing scientific truth. The atheists who run the school system do not approach it even-handedly or charitably. They are simply trying to make Christianity look stupid by promoting it.

 

[calitennis127]

1- I am NOT saying religion is the only cause of pain and suffering. I am saying it is one of the biggest causes.

At times, it has been, and at other times, it is has been one of the main causes of human flourishing and an impediment to war.

Because it is much easier to get people going to war in the name of God than, say, evolution by natural selection.

It is also easy to caution people against going to war in the name of God. An example of this is how Pope John Paul II opposed the Iraq war.

And you bring up "evolution by natural selection"? Well, what about eugenics or scientific planning for society of the sort that the French Revolutionaries and the Bolsheviks promoted?

Not to mention SECULAR POLITICAL IDEOLOGY, such as the United States government's quest to spread democracy everywhere.

I gave you do George Bush example? Was I wrong?

Yes, you were. Bush's speeches and words were far more Jacobin and secular than they were Christian. Bringing up God once or twice is nothing more than a hollow cliche meant to be heartwarming to the voting masses. That's it.

When he said "God is on our side" didn't he make it a religious war in the eyes of the Muslims, even though it had nothing to do with religion?

No, that comment did not make it a religious war for Muslims. What made it a religious war for the Muslims is that they have a much stronger sense of history than Westerners and they always perceive the West as Christian. But, even more fundamentally, Muslims believe Allah is the true path and everything else is nonsense. So they will make it a religious war no matter what.

Not to mention that Bush was as doctrinaire as Obama about repeatedly assuring everyone that Islam was a "religion of peace".

Bush's religion was the secular religion of democracy. It was not Christianity.

Would people rally behind him if he said " Big Oil is behind us...let's go sacrifice ourselves so Haliburton can make a buck" ?

I believe some people actually would support that, but either way, you are conveniently omitting how the Bush administration used WMD as casus belli and preyed on Americans' fears of terrorism shortly after 9/11. For you to imply that he made the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq some kind of modern-day Christian holy war is just outlandish.

2-Christian imperialism caused the colonization of most of Africa, India, Pakistan and let to the enslaving of millions of people. Because "those savages" needed to learn who Christ was.

Please elaborate and justify these highly dubious assertions.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I will elaborate. As for the other stuff, well, I am tired. One thing I will say though: I am totally against any kind of politicized science, like eugenics. Eugenics is a black mark on civilized world's history. It was taught in schools as fact...In fact, Nazis built their program pretty much copied from American eugenics movement. We should all feel embarrassed by this.

Colonization of Africa ...Around the 16th century or so, as Christian Europe got better ships and weapons, the greed for more resources and gold led countries like Spain and Portugal to exploit less developed countries and continents, like Africa. Also the Churches idea of mission and the belief that they were the superior race, led to Prince Henry's initial exploits of Africa and so started the trans atlantic slave trade, with the church's blessing and full support. Other European countries followed suit. Papal bulls were issued to Henry, confirming that the " Crown of Portugal had dominion over all lands south of Cape Bojador in Africa. Along with encouraging the seizure of the lands of Saracen Turks and non-Christians", and it repeated the earlier bull's permission for the "enslavement of such peoples".

So, the transatlantic slave trade has its roots in Christianity, which had no problem with slavery in the first place and held onto those beliefs up until around 1865 in the USA. If you ask the KKK or the Aryan Nations end of slavery was not such a great idea however.


Peace out.

 

[Kieran]

"Christian Europe" is a very loose term, especially when applied to the Kings and Queens who were colonising Africa. Colonialisation wasn't about religion, anyway, it was about man doing what comes naturally, which is taking what he wants, by force if necessary. Putin isn't forcing the issue in Ukraine because of God: he's doing it because that's what tyrants do. Likewise, the tyrants of previous generations...

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

"Christian Europe" is a very loose term, especially when applied to the Kings and Queens who were colonising Africa. Colonialisation wasn't about religion, anyway, it was about man doing what comes naturally, which is taking what he wants, by force if necessary. Putin isn't forcing the issue in Ukraine because of God: he's doing it because that's what tyrants do. Likewise, the tyrants of previous generations...

I don't disagree about the first part, but do you think slavery would be what it became if the church said " Slavery is immoral, leave everyone be, also, no missionary activities allowed" ? All the activities were done with the churches blessings. This is documented clearly. That led to a lot of suffering that some still feel today.

 

[Kieran]

No missionary activities? First off, the missionary activities help feed the poor. Catholic charity has been immense throughout the centuries. Secondly, they have a duty to spread the Good News. Missionary activity is a duty, not an option.

The issue of slavery is far more complex than you're making out. You quoted St Peter in isolation above, but he said more on this than you reported. Plus you must remember always to judge historical activity in the context of its time. It's cosy to sit in the 21st century and judge the Christian past harshly, but brother, the liberal secularist present we live in is far more barbaric and indefensible - and the killing done in its name is not caused by religion.

And as for forced conversions etc, in the nations which Europe subdued, popes condemned this at the time and throughout its activity. Sometimes papal and church condemnations aren't listened to...

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Can't you feed the poor without pushing doctrine? There are a lot of charities that do that, without asking people for their soul. I give to one.

By the way, I am judging all religions equally, not just Christianity. I am an equal opportunity offender. And since religions claim to be timeless and God's word is final, and the books have not changed in any way since centuries, I CAN sit cosy in 21st century and bitch about what happened in the past, just like I will be able to bitch about NOW , in the 24th century. The crimes done in the name of religion are timeless as well. Started with sacrificing people after a volcano erupted because Gods wanted a virgin, going on today because "My religion beats your religion" arguments, that should have actually ended at kindergarten age are still present.

I am ready for Kumbaya....

 

[Billie]

I feel bad for Murat, as it seems that all are ganging up on him. I cringe when I have to go through airport security and I see the officers select people for more check-up only by the color of their skin or the way they look.:nono

I will say this, the growing of the Islamic radicalization is closely tied with the Western policies toward these countries. When they are partners in some cases (like years ago in Afghanistan, then in Bosnia and Kosovo recently) and then they become enemies in other countries (what's happening nowadays), it is hard to keep up with alliances.

Catholic church didn't do much to stop mass killings of Serbs in WWWII, well just because the killings were committed by Catholic Croatians and Serbs were Orthodox Christians, so that was OK, I guess (you can search for Jasenovac and Gradiska if you don't know about these camps). I highly doubt that they would bomb Serbia in 1999 if Serbs were part of their religion, considering that all international laws were broken and NATO started it under false pretences. It is great if you are on their side...

I often wonder how people have short memories and fail to research at least some "facts" presented by media, seems like history hasn't taught us anything. Some things do repeat itself, sadly.

http://www.reiss-institute.org/articles/allies-catholics-and-nazis/

http://libcom.org/library/role-catholic-church-yugoslavias-holocaust-se-n-mac-math-na-1941-1945

http://serbianna.com/analysis/archives/2614

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

No worries Billy. I have been ganged upon all my life when it came to matters of the spiritual. The funny thing is the burden of proof has always been put on me, as if proving a negative is easily achieved.

Thank you though ....:hug