China Open, Beijing ATP 500

[isabelle]

This time Nadal prevailed, I'm not surprised he played much better this week

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

captain vamos reaches a hc final.   its better than a slap in the face with a damp hamster.

 

[britbox]

<cite>@JesuslookslikeBorg said:</cite>
captain vamos reaches a hc final.   its better than a slap in the face with a damp hamster.

Unless you're feeling hot and dehydrated. 

 

[Denis]

Happy Novak gets to improve the h2h tomorrow.

 

[MikeOne]

Novak didn't seem to be at his best and still dusted Ferrer, scary. Tomorrow will be fun as i expect Nadal to play freely, hopefully swinging away. He stated that Novak is a different level and that he's going to try things and have fun in final... who knows. One thing about Nadal is he has always surprised those who have brushed him off. In 09, many were saying the end was near after knee injury, look at what he did in 2010. In 2013, everyone wrote him off and he had an amazing year, reclaiming #1. 2015 has been some of the same, it wouldn't shock me if Nadal starts surprising people, once again, on near future.

 

[calitennis127]

<cite>@MikeOne said:</cite>
Novak didn't seem to be at his best and still dusted Ferrer, scary. Tomorrow will be fun as i expect Nadal to play freely, hopefully swinging away. He stated that Novak is a different level and that he's going to try things and have fun in final... who knows. One thing about Nadal is he has always surprised those who have brushed him off. In 09, many were saying the end was near after knee injury, look at what he did in 2010. In 2013, everyone wrote him off and he had an amazing year, reclaiming #1. 2015 has been some of the same, it wouldn't shock me if Nadal starts surprising people, once again, on near future.

 

I was not someone who wrote him off in 2013. I said that everything was clearly fine and intact during the Golden Swing in South America when others said that he was nowhere near his usual level or they weren't sure if he was back.

Then his win over Gulbis at Indian Wells confirmed to me that his way of weaseling out matches was still firmly in place.

 

 

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

<cite>@britbox said:</cite>
Unless you're feeling hot and dehydrated. 

hmm..a damp hamster in the face would be a welcome bonus in such a scenario.

 

[Mastoor]

I don't know if anyone noticed but in round 1 No1e allowed 2 games to Bolleli, then in round 2 three games to Zhang, then 4 games to Isner and 5 games to Ferrer, so you can deduct the number of games Rafa will win in the final. ;-)

 

 

 

[Moxie]

<cite>@MikeOne said:</cite>
Novak didn't seem to be at his best and still dusted Ferrer, scary. Tomorrow will be fun as i expect Nadal to play freely, hopefully swinging away. He stated that Novak is a different level and that he's going to try things and have fun in final... who knows. One thing about Nadal is he has always surprised those who have brushed him off. In 09, many were saying the end was near after knee injury, look at what he did in 2010. In 2013, everyone wrote him off and he had an amazing year, reclaiming #1. 2015 has been some of the same, it wouldn't shock me if Nadal starts surprising people, once again, on near future.

I'm pretty sure that tomorrow's final will only be fun for Djokovic fans.  No matter how loose Nadal feels and free to just enjoy it, Novak is playing at a very high level, and the court suits his game completely.  I think someone said he's never lost at this event.  They are currently playing at two very different levels.

 

[Front242]

Novak's not playing at that high a level at all and doesn't even need to.  He barely got out of 2nd gear against Ferrer.  The court is just so horribly slow it's impossible for anyone to hit any winners here.  Even for Novak himself.  First set against Ferrer  had a pathetic 3 winners for Djokovic and 4 for Ferrer.  With Novak being the most athletic guy currently on tour, all he needs to do on this horrendously slow court is just frustrate his opponent into making errors 'cos they can barely hit any winners or aces due to the awfully slow court.  Did I mention it was awfully slow?  Sure Novak's return of serve is unreal, but when a guy like Isner serves only 3 aces, there's a lot more to it than ROS.  Isner's serves didn't even look fast in their match and there's no way in hell he serves only 3 aces against Novak on a court faster than this pos.  This court is tailor made for Novak.  I give Rafa either 5 games or 6 tops.  6-2 6-3 or 6-3 6-3 to Novak.

 

[Billie]

If Nole wins tomorrow, I will wish for all courts to be just like this one.

 

[Billie]

<cite>@Front242 said:</cite>
Novak's not playing at that high a level at all and doesn't even need to.  He barely got out of 2nd gear against Ferrer.  The court is just so horribly slow it's impossible for anyone to hit any winners here.  Even for Novak himself.  First set against Ferrer  had a pathetic 3 winners for Djokovic and 4 for Ferrer.  With Novak being the most athletic guy currently on tour, all he needs to do on this horrendously slow court is just frustrate his opponent into making errors 'cos they can barely hit any winners or aces due to the awfully slow court.  Did I mention it was awfully slow?  Sure Novak's return of serve is unreal, but when a guy like Isner serves only 3 aces, there's a lot more to it than ROS.  Isner's serves didn't even look fast in their match and there's no way in hell he serves only 3 aces against Novak on a court faster than this pos.  This court is tailor made for Novak.  I give Rafa either 5 games or 6 tops.  6-2 6-3 or 6-3 6-3 to Novak.

Why is it Nole's fault that others can't play that well on these courts?  He plays all mandatory tournaments and some are slower than others, but you really sound it like this is not a tennis court at all.  :scratch:

 

[Moxie]

<cite>@Billie said:</cite>
Why is it Nole's fault that others can't play that well on these courts?  He plays all mandatory tournaments and some are slower than others, but you really sound it like this is not a tennis court at all.  :scratch:

You have just reiterated the Nadal fans' argument to Federer fans over the last 10 years...is it Nadal's fault that a particular surface suits him?  No, and it's not Novak's fault that Beijing suits him, or the AO, for that matter.  Both are great enough champions that other surfaces work for their game, too, Nole's especially.  Some fans try to peg it to a specific surface, and complain about it.  I think it's just sour grapes, when both have proven their games across a lot of types of court.  Of course, there are strengths, but it's petulant to complain, imo, when a top player has the luxury of playing to his.

 

[Front242]

Actually the WTF courts have become the same as this and Federer has a great record there but I still find the courts to be shockingly slow and boring to watch there.  Just watch some clips.  For me, slow tennis is the epitome of suck as it takes the winners and shot making out of the equation since most balls can be run down with ease by the top players.  So to reiterate, the WTF suits Federer's game very well too but the courts used to be faster and imo they now suck there too.  Way too slow and horrible bounce.  Watching clips is like slow motion.

 

[Billie]

I am trying to quote and reply to @Moxie but it is not working for some reason.  This is the post:

"You have just reiterated the Nadal fans’ argument to Federer fans over the last 10 years…is it Nadal’s fault that a particular surface suits him?  No, and it’s not Novak’s fault that Beijing suits him, or the AO, for that matter.  Both are great enough champions that other surfaces work for their game, too, Nole’s especially.  Some fans try to peg it to a specific surface, and complain about it.  I think it’s just sour grapes, when both have proven their games across a lot of types of court.  Of course, there are strengths, but it’s petulant to complain, imo, when a top player has the luxury of playing to his."

Absolutely agree with this.  We as fans are normally subjective about our champions, each player's fan base I mean, but at the end of the day they play for so many years, they play on all kinds of surfaces and some are more successful on some than others.   The top players can't of course play with the same intensity and the same success every single tournament or even every single year.   But the number of matches they win, tournaments they win, that can't be denied and taken away from them.   Frankly I get a bit annoyed at some suggesting how easy Nole had it this year as if he just appeared out of nowhere and fresh as a daisy while the others are old, washed up, in slump, etc.  Like he hasn't paid his dues and labored a great deal to arrive where he is today.  I don't, however, get too bothered about that. 

 

 

 

[Moxie]

I am trying to quote and reply to @Moxie but it is not working for some reason. This is the post: “You have just reiterated the Nadal fans’ argument to Federer fans over the last 10 years…is it Nadal’s fault that a particular surface suits him? No, and it’s not Novak’s fault that Beijing suits him, or the AO, for that matter. Both are great enough champions that other surfaces work for their game, too, Nole’s especially. Some fans try to peg it to a specific surface, and complain about it. I think it’s just sour grapes, when both have proven their games across a lot of types of court. Of course, there are strengths, but it’s petulant to complain, imo, when a top player has the luxury of playing to his.” Absolutely agree with this. We as fans are normally subjective about our champions, each player’s fan base I mean, but at the end of the day they play for so many years, they play on all kinds of surfaces and some are more successful on some than others. The top players can’t of course play with the same intensity and the same success every single tournament or even every single year. But the number of matches they win, tournaments they win, that can’t be denied and taken away from them. Frankly I get a bit annoyed at some suggesting how easy Nole had it this year as if he just appeared out of nowhere and fresh as a daisy while the others are old, washed up, in slump, etc. Like he hasn’t paid his dues and labored a great deal to arrive where he is today. I don’t, however, get too bothered about that.

Looks like there's an easier quote and reply function, so that may help us both.  Thanks for agreeing with me, anyway, about those who complain about elite players on their best surfaces.  Especially when they have relatively good-to-great success on surfaces not considered their best, as well.

I don't think anyone pretends that Novak this year has appeared out of nowhere, though.  That his best competition, Rafa and Roger, have fallen off somewhat, is actually a thing.  I don't see how that can be denied.  But he is miles above everyone, and that counts in his favor.  The Federer fans don't make apologies for the years when he was miles ahead of his own competition, now, do they?  :whistle:

 

[Billie]

Well, it is normal that each player has his own preferred surface, where he is at his best, but throughout the years, the very best show us how good they are on all surfaces.  I always considered # of semi finals and finals a telling stat as well.

I should start moaning how Nole was too young and not so good from 2006 to 2010 and that some took advantage of that, but what good it is.  Perhaps Nadal and Federer were better in those years and Nole is better these years.  It all evens out, I would say.

Nole is still the youngest player to reach all major semi finals and he did occasionally beat Federer and Nadal when Nole was 20 years old.  Who is to say that he wouldn't have been more successful against them if he were to compete against them as a player that he is now in those years?   We can spin arguments any way we want, but at the end of the day players play each season against players that are currently on the tour.

Frankly I sometimes frown at disrespect that their own fans show to Rafa and Roger, dismissing them so easily.  As if they haven't battled for a long time and still do their best, adapt and try to be as successful as possible.   And no, I won't dismiss Nole when he starts to decline, on the contrary, or diminish other peoples success over him.   It is really sometimes funny to me how I was occasionally accused of being fangirl, but I never show disrespect towards other players.  That I love Nole and plead his greatness, well I usually support that with some facts.  Can't blame me for that, can you?  

 

[Moxie]

Frankly I sometimes frown at disrespect that their own fans show to Rafa and Roger, dismissing them so easily. As if they haven’t battled for a long time and still do their best, adapt and try to be as successful as possible. And no, I won’t dismiss Nole when he starts to decline, on the contrary, or diminish other peoples success over him. It is really sometimes funny to me how I was occasionally accused of being fangirl, but I never show disrespect towards other players. That I love Nole and plead his greatness, well I usually support that with some facts. Can’t blame me for that, can you?

Fans fall into different categories, imo.  Some are the "call-it-as-it-is" types, who seem to prefer to be posters who rise above mere fandom, even while having a clear favorite.  Some are not reluctant to express their disgruntlement when their player is having a rough patch, and some are downright insulting about that. Which is probably what you don't relate to.  Nor do I.  But to each his own.  You and I are of the die-hard stripe, and will always pull for our player.  This is also a valid position, imo, and optimism for your guy's chances is not an especially bad or fannish thing, if one can "talk tennis" to back it up, I'd say. (Obviously, it's not as easy to be an optimistic Nadal fan as it is to be a Djokovic fan at the moment, but I'm up to the task.    As you will be when rockier times come for your player, as they inevitably will.)  But touting one player's strengths and another's weaknesses is not dissing that player, even if he's the current best.  It's optimistically positing the odds.  I think that's fair.  I said, I think it was on the Novak v. Rafa final thread, that I didn't think Rafa had a chance, as their levels were so different, at this moment.  That's not dissing Nadal, that was merely stating the obvious.  But Rafa did play well, despite the scoreline.  So...I hold out hope for the resurgence.   Why not?

 

[Billie]

Billie wrote:
Frankly I sometimes frown at disrespect that their own fans show to Rafa and Roger, dismissing them so easily. As if they haven’t battled for a long time and still do their best, adapt and try to be as successful as possible. And no, I won’t dismiss Nole when he starts to decline, on the contrary, or diminish other peoples success over him. It is really sometimes funny to me how I was occasionally accused of being fangirl, but I never show disrespect towards other players. That I love Nole and plead his greatness, well I usually support that with some facts. Can’t blame me for that, can you?

Fans fall into different categories, imo. Some are the “call-it-as-it-is” types, who seem to prefer to be posters who rise above mere fandom, even while having a clear favorite. Some are not reluctant to express their disgruntlement when their player is having a rough patch, and some are downright insulting about that. Which is probably what you don’t relate to. Nor do I. But to each his own. You and I are of the die-hard stripe, and will always pull for our player. This is also a valid position, imo, and optimism for your guy’s chances is not an especially bad or fannish thing, if one can “talk tennis” to back it up, I’d say. (Obviously, it’s not as easy to be an optimistic Nadal fan as it is to be a Djokovic fan at the moment, but I’m up to the task.

As you will be when rockier times come for your player, as they inevitably will.) But touting one player’s strengths and another’s weaknesses is not dissing that player, even if he’s the current best. It’s optimistically positing the odds. I think that’s fair. I said, I think it was on the Novak v. Rafa final thread, that I didn’t think Rafa had a chance, as their levels were so different, at this moment. That’s not dissing Nadal, that was merely stating the obvious. But Rafa did play well, despite the scoreline. So…I hold out hope for the resurgence. Why not?

Yeah a lot of good points.  Damnation!!!!  We agree Moxie

Frankly I already had a taste of defending Nole when it is not going as smoothly for him as this year (especially 2012, 2013 and beginning of 2014).  Some saw him take a big tumble never to return to top, even his own fans as well as non fans.  I always think it is hard to keep winning and don't really expect Nole to do it all the time, but I am always pleasantly surprised when he does do it.   As for me personally,  I am happy as long as Nole is happy with his life and is healthy.