Chair umpires consider boycotting Serena's matches

[DarthFed]

There should only be one controversy we are still talking about after the US Open and that would be the one where Mo came down and acted as Nicko's coach/psychologist and gave him a pep rally when he was struggling. That one got like 1 hour of coverage and they didn't even give him a slap on the wrist. It's a little worse than a guy actually applying the rules in a major final and getting mercilessly criticized for actually doing his job. He called code violations on Serena so of course he must be racist and/or sexist. Seriously??? As I said before, tennis has become a really, really soft-ass sport.

 

[Horsa]

There should only be one controversy we are still talking about after the US Open and that would be the one where Mo came down and acted as Nicko's coach/psychologist and gave him a pep rally when he was struggling. That one got like 1 hour of coverage and they didn't even give him a slap on the wrist. It's a little worse than a guy actually applying the rules in a major final and getting mercilessly criticized for actually doing his job. He called code violations on Serena so of course he must be racist and/or sexist. Seriously??? As I sad before, tennis has become a really, really soft-ass sport.

I agree but I'd say that that should have been discussed already. Something should have been done about it & we should have been moving on to the high-lights & other things. The champions should have been given their moments of glory & fame & we should have been moving on to talking about other things which are happening at the moment. About the claim that Carlos was racist &/ sexist & everyone who thinks he was just doing his job is also racist &/ sexist I feel the need to add that although I'm white I'm not racist & I'm female so gender inequality has nothing to do with things. I'm just saying what I think according to what I saw & my core values. I've been angry a few times but have never called anyone else names or been threatening towards them. I've never damaged goods neither.

 

[britbox]

They won't boycott Serena matches... it's just closing ranks and making a statement along the lines of "we've got a pretty tough job, give us a damn break"

 

[Moxie]

They won't boycott Serena matches... it's just closing ranks and making a statement along the lines of "we've got a pretty tough job, give us a damn break"

Is it really that tough? Making judgements is their job. They are guaranteed to be occasionally controversial. And they are going to hear it from the players, sometimes. What about this is surprising or new?

 

[Moxie]

Here is Roger swearing and at the same impugning the umpiring of Carlos Ramos. Does anyone know if he got a violation or even a warning for it?

 

[tossip]

Here is Roger swearing and at the same impugning the umpiring of Carlos Ramos. Does anyone know if he got a violation or even a warning for it?

no definitely not...they wouldnt dare.

 

[Moxie]

no definitely not...they wouldnt dare.

I'm not sure, and I'd like to know.

 

[tossip]

there is video going viral on instagram where Venus was cautioned by the same umpire for coaching and Vee was giving him her piece of mind...these umpires have always had something against the sisters.Remember when a referee cheated Vee at Wimbledon and he just shrugged like nothing happened...and this year a woman ref rudely told Vee to remove her bra at Wimbledon.Remember that ref at RG when Serena was playing Maria Jose he ignored all that the spaniard did...lots of examples of their biased officiating against the sisters..

 

[Moxie]

there is video going viral on instagram where Venus was cautioned by the same umpire for coaching and Vee was giving him her piece of mind...these umpires have always had something against the sisters.Remember when a referee cheated Vee at Wimbledon and he just shrugged like nothing happened...and this year a woman ref rudely told Vee to remove her bra at Wimbledon.Remember that ref at RG when Serena was playing Maria Jose he ignored all that the spaniard did...lots of examples of their biased officiating against the sisters..

I really don't remember those. I suggest you post examples.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

I thought I addressed the issue in question when I said that I didn't blame the umpires for what they were doing as no one deserves to be threatened when they're doing their job to the best of their ability.

Yes, you addressed the issue of Carlos' integrity, and the integrity of tennis umpire job in general. And I agree with your view, thanks.

Now, based on our agreement above, I try to find out the answer to the issue: could all umps stand together for their colleague and the dignity of their jobs and successfully implement the boycotting of future Serena matches? Say, until e.g. Serena apologises for her behaviour?
As I said, I wish they could but I'm afraid they don't have enough power to do so. The ump average salary for chairing a match is few hundred dollars, maybe couple thousands at the most. While Serena's wager for win vs. lose is more than 1 million dollars. Thousand times more. So there is no surprise here that Serena, with her financial stake thousand times bigger, feels entitled to argue with the umps against the rules of the sport. She has the backing of some of her fans, including famous ones like Billy Jean King, and even some tennis orgs like WTA! I think her money (on top of the tennis resume) earn her such powerful backing. So it's a David vs. Goliath battle.

 

[Mastoor]

Here is Roger swearing and at the same impugning the umpiring of Carlos Ramos. Does anyone know if he got a violation or even a warning for it?

He should have penalised Fed for swearing in that video. However, they don't have equal measures for that among men neither. Have you ever seen any referee warning Murray after any of his many F words? I don't remember ever seeing that. I saw Tommy Hass warned even though no one sitting around me heard him saying it and he claimed the chair umpire misunderstood him, that he didn't say the f word but something else.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

He should have penalised Fed for swearing in that video. However, they don't have equal measures for that among men neither. Have you ever seen any referee warning Murray after any of his many F words? I don't remember ever seeing that. I saw Tommy Hass warned even though no one sitting around me heard him saying it and he claimed the chair umpire misunderstood him, that he didn't say the f word but something else.

I want to point out that verbal abuse is not defined as "swearing". In particular, Andy's F words are not targeted at anyone, maybe at the ball or at his racquet or even at himself but not at another person present at the stadium. As such, they do not make a definition of "verbal abuse". On the other hand Serena's word "thief" directed at Carlos, even if it sounds harmless to some who don't care about Carlos' emotions, is a verbal abuse, because it's a direct attack on his integrity as an ump on duty, the denigrating intent more than obvious.
Yes, credit to Serena that she learned how not to swear (she does not use F word as she did in 2009) but that effort did not address her vulnerability to the Code of Conduct violations. To address her vulnerability, she must change her moral motivation and stop accusing ump of being unjust towards her during the match. She is free to vent her accusations later, at the presser. I'm sure the authorities would look at her well thought presser statements with all seriousness, especially when she's concerned about gender equality. That would be an appropriate role model of human activism she is so passionate about. But by choosing to vent her accusations on the spot she gains nothing but loses her match quicker and in shameful style.

 

[Horsa]

Yes, you addressed the issue of Carlos' integrity, and the integrity of tennis umpire job in general. And I agree with your view, thanks.

Now, based on our agreement above, I try to find out the answer to the issue: could all umps stand together for their colleague and the dignity of their jobs and successfully implement the boycotting of future Serena matches? Say, until e.g. Serena apologises for her behaviour?
As I said, I wish they could but I'm afraid they don't have enough power to do so. The ump average salary for chairing a match is few hundred dollars, maybe couple thousands at the most. While Serena's wager for win vs. lose is more than 1 million dollars. Thousand times more. So there is no surprise here that Serena, with her financial stake thousand times bigger, feels entitled to argue with the umps against the rules of the sport. She has the backing of some of her fans, including famous ones like Billy Jean King, and even some tennis orgs like WTA! I think her money (on top of the tennis resume) earn her such powerful backing. So it's a David vs. Goliath battle.

You're welcome.

It would be good as it would show that they're willing to stand up for their rights & beliefs but don't think they could because the tennis authorities could warn them if they didn't do their jobs they would get other people trained up to do their jobs instead & there would be many people who would be willing to do their jobs because they're in worse circumstances.

 

[tossip]

I really don't remember those. I suggest you post examples.

You dont remember Venus playing Bagdhadis wife at Wimbledon?she was cheated in plain sight and he was escorted off the grounds.The most recent is 2016 at RG...these girls have endured bs from these umpires for years and the need to make a montage of all the bs they have endured ...

 

[Mastoor]

I want to point out that verbal abuse is not defined as "swearing". In particular, Andy's F words are not targeted at anyone, maybe at the ball or at his racquet or even at himself but not at another person present at the stadium. As such, they do not make a definition of "verbal abuse". On the other hand Serena's word "thief" directed at Carlos, even if it sounds harmless to some who don't care about Carlos' emotions, is a verbal abuse, because it's a direct attack on his integrity as an ump on duty, the denigrating intent more than obvious.
Yes, credit to Serena that she learned how not to swear (she does not use F word as she did in 2009) but that effort did not address her vulnerability to the Code of Conduct violations. To address her vulnerability, she must change her moral motivation and stop accusing ump of being unjust towards her during the match. She is free to vent her accusations later, at the presser. I'm sure the authorities would look at her well thought presser statements with all seriousness, especially when she's concerned about gender equality. That would be an appropriate role model of human activism she is so passionate about. But by choosing to vent her accusations on the spot she gains nothing but loses her match quicker and in shameful style.

I don't think there is a difference in the book between saying F word to someone or to no one in particular, saying BS, calling umpire a thief or breaking the racket, taking more than 25 seconds on serve. Any of that is equally a breach of rules and should be punished in a sequence: warning, point lost, game lost, set lost, disqualification.

 

[Moxie]

I don't think there is a difference in the book between saying F word to someone or to no one in particular, saying BS, calling umpire a thief or breaking the racket, taking more than 25 seconds on serve. Any of that is equally a breach of rules and should be punished in a sequence: warning, point lost, game lost, set lost, disqualification.

You're right about code violations (swearing, breaking a racquet, hitting a ball into the crowd in anger, impugning the umpire...and probably another player's GF.) However, I think slow play is a different category. Infractions only accumulate in their own category, if I understand correctly.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

I don't think there is a difference in the book between saying F word to someone or to no one in particular, saying BS, calling umpire a thief or breaking the racket, taking more than 25 seconds on serve. Any of that is equally a breach of rules and should be punished in a sequence: warning, point lost, game lost, set lost, disqualification.

Can you point me to the actual source of your opinion? Just to make sure we are looking at the same thing. I took a look at ITF officiating here:
https://www.itftennis.com/officiating/rulebooks/pro-circuit.aspx and downloaded 2018 Pro Circuit Regulations. Of our interest herein is article 4 On-site offences, and in particular sections D (time violation), section E (audible obscenity) and section G (verbal abuse), and section J (abuse of racquets). Firstly, I note that time violation results in "fault" (for server) while the other three violations of interest are assessed in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule. So Moxie is right above: time violation is just a fault and does not incur progressive penalty.

More importantly to me, you are correct that "F words" are penalised in the same way as "calling umpire a thief". But it's worth noting that "F word" falls into a different category of violations E (audible obscenity). So, e.g. Serena in 2009, with her threat to "shove a f..ing ball in f..ing throat of a lineswoman" should have been doubly penalised (for both sections E & G), but the officials did not clearly enforce the double penalty: i.e. they turned out to be lenient by citing one offence only (G verbal abuse). Since then, Serena worked on her behaviour to avoid violating section E but she forgot about section G, on which she still must work.

To clarify section E, we need to read what is "audible obscenity":
audible obscenity is defined as the use of words commonly known and understood to be profane and uttered clearly and loudly enough to be heard by the Court Officials or spectators. - ITF Rules 2018.
The key here is "loudly enough to be heard". So, in case of Sir Andy, even if he says his F words very visibly (everyone can deduce it from his hippopotamus mouth) but his words cannot be heard, then technically he cannot be charged with audible obscenity violation. And he is smart enough to shout his F words mostly at a time when there is a loud background noise at the stadium, to make sure his obscenity is not audible.

 

[Mastoor]

You're right about code violations (swearing, breaking a racquet, hitting a ball into the crowd in anger, impugning the umpire...and probably another player's GF.) However, I think slow play is a different category. Infractions only accumulate in their own category, if I understand correctly.

It is actually chair umpires who make confusion by randomly sanctioning or not sanctioning the players. I don't think there is a distinction in the book of rules between different code violations so I assume they should be all sanctioned equally. I guess the difference is only made later when they chose how much fine someone should pay, so you probably don't pay a fine if you were late with service, but you do if you break a racket, swear or assault someone in which case you may be even suspended.

 

[Mastoor]

Can you point me to the actual source of your opinion? Just to make sure we are looking at the same thing. I took a look at ITF officiating here:
https://www.itftennis.com/officiating/rulebooks/pro-circuit.aspx and downloaded 2018 Pro Circuit Regulations. Of our interest herein is article 4 On-site offences, and in particular sections D (time violation), section E (audible obscenity) and section G (verbal abuse), and section J (abuse of racquets). Firstly, I note that time violation results in "fault" (for server) while the other three violations of interest are assessed in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule. So Moxie is right above: time violation is just a fault and does not incur progressive penalty.

More importantly to me, you are correct that "F words" are penalised in the same way as "calling umpire a thief". But it's worth noting that "F word" falls into a different category of violations E (audible obscenity). So, e.g. Serena in 2009, with her threat to "shove a f..ing ball in f..ing throat of a lineswoman" should have been doubly penalised (for both sections E & G), but the officials did not clearly enforce the double penalty: i.e. they turned out to be lenient by citing one offence only (G verbal abuse). Since then, Serena worked on her behaviour to avoid violating section E but she forgot about section G, on which she still must work.

To clarify section E, we need to read what is "audible obscenity":
audible obscenity is defined as the use of words commonly known and understood to be profane and uttered clearly and loudly enough to be heard by the Court Officials or spectators. - ITF Rules 2018.
The key here is "loudly enough to be heard". So, in case of Sir Andy, even if he says his F words very visibly (everyone can deduce it from his hippopotamus mouth) but his words cannot be heard, then technically he cannot be charged with audible obscenity violation. And he is smart enough to shout his F words mostly at a time when there is a loud background noise at the stadium, to make sure his obscenity is not audible.

I don't have time to check this, but I guess I was then wrong about time violation. I understand you are saying each time they go over 25 seconds they should be faulted, but not ever sanctioned more than that. Ok.

 

[Vince Evert]

I feel while it is the official’s job to render decisions during a match that it is also their job to prepare for and subdue any reaction after their decisions. I don’t think he did that part of his job well at all, and I think he knew penalizing a game was going to enrage her from a situation in which he didn’t necessarily do the best at quelling when he first issued it. I will agree he followed the rules, but I think also part of the decision making process in issuing violations is the responsibility of reaching a consensus with the player before play resumes that everything is clear and understood.

I disagree. It's not for the chair ump to "prepare for and subdue any reaction" when a game-penalty was imposed, but rather she should have had the sense to stop and gotten her mind back to the tennis. She failed to do so. Another thing, Serena has had these meltdowns at the USO before and one wonders if she puts a lot of pressure on herself playing on the Arthur Ashe stadium court (a legend she obviously respected) and in front of her home crowd. Why only at the USO and not any other championship ?