BlackLivesMatter

[calitennis127]

Racism also exists in the UK. I'm constantly amazed at the indifference of white ex soccer players to the fact that there are a negligible number of black coaches and managers in the football leagues in England. While black players are a significant percentage of all football teams now. The stats are so overwhelming, it's actually hilarious that anyone with half a brain cell can try to refute this.

But what seems to be happening in the United States seems to be on a whole other level (not in sports though).

Silly argument Federberg.....you could easily turn this on its head and say that racism explains why most players in sports leagues are black. Is the NFL racist because 98% of wide receivers, defensive backs, and running backs are African-American? Should they impose a rule that states 50% of all teams should be white to be fair?

 

[Federberg]

Racism also exists in the UK. I'm constantly amazed at the indifference of white ex soccer players to the fact that there are a negligible number of black coaches and managers in the football leagues in England. While black players are a significant percentage of all football teams now. The stats are so overwhelming, it's actually hilarious that anyone with half a brain cell can try to refute this.

But what seems to be happening in the United States seems to be on a whole other level (not in sports though).

Silly argument Federberg.....you could easily turn this on its head and say that racism explains why most players in sports leagues are black. Is the NFL racist because 98% of wide receivers, defensive backs, and running backs are African-American? Should they impose a rule that states 50% of all teams should be white to be fair?

Perhaps Cali, but not for the reason you're hinting at. When your opportunities are frustrated in other walks of life it is natural to see talented individuals gravitate towards industries that are meritocratic or at least see the advantage of employing you. Clearly sporting franchises everywhere aren't going to spite themselves by excluding the best athletes. Please not I'm not saying that the best athletes are black, but clearly the way the system works it is entirely understandable that a disproportionate amount of blacks will see the chance of fulfilling careers in sports than in other areas of endeavour.

But the situation flips when we're talking about management or coaching roles. No one can argue with LeBron James is an excellent basketball player that will enhance your team. But when it comes to management there is no reason why he should be better than a less able white athlete. It is to some extent an act of faith to give him the opportunity instead of someone else. Now obviously the colour barrier has been breached much more successfully in American sports. My point.. is that this is certainly not the case in the UK. Not yet at least

 

[britbox]

Agree with Cali to a certain extent... if we're all supposedly born equal then why so few white fellas in the 100m final?

 

[Federberg]

I'm not disputing that major sports are becoming less and less white. I'm not sure the reason for that has anything to do with racism though. I think that's entirely to do with who is looking to become a sports professional. I would argue that a disproportionate number of the seekers these days are black. They are less likely to get opportunities to become hedge fund traders, advertising executives or at least that's what the data tells us. Becoming an athlete is something that is entirely meritocratic these days. No one is going to frustrate the chances of a Lebron James from becoming a basket ball player just because he's black. They know if they do, another franchise will grab him and they will be the poorer for it.

It's interesting when you look at boxing these days. It tells you a lot. Over the last decade we have seen a huge number of boxers come from Eastern Europe. They're white, and they've been succesful, which completely contradicts what was almost becoming an accepted wisdom that white guys couldn't fight. It's all about alternative opportunities the way I see it. An African American is more likely to want to become a boxer in the United States than a caucasian. For the same reason, an Eastern European with a much more restricted opportunity set to choose from is more likely to become a boxer than a white American. It has nothing to do with racial ability. And everything to do with what alternatives you have to choose from. I have never heard anything about white athletes being denied opportunities, have you?

 

[Kieran]

Agree with Cali to a certain extent... if we're all supposedly born equal then why so few white fellas in the 100m final?

I read somewhere before that it's to do with the physical make-up of the body, the narrowness of the hips, or whatever. I don't have a link, but I agree with you, it's got nothing to do with "equality" because that's a dumb, misused, over-abused political term anyway. There are different attributes, and some fit snugly into this kind of athletic prowess, but not so well into other endeavors...

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

black sprinters have more fast twitch fibres in muscles than white sprinters, only one white bloke has ever run under 10secs for 100m...Christophe Lemetre of france ..

and even he in 2012 decided with his coach that he was too slow for the 100m, so didn't compete in the 100m at 2012olympics. ran in 200m but finished 5th in final or thereabouts.

 

[Federberg]

^there was a study of fast twitch done some years ago in Europe that was peer reviewed and published. The conclusion was that although there was a preponderance of fast twitch genes in West Africa there was no more than amongst the European gene stock. Some sports journalists in the UK wrote an article about it, I forget which newspaper, but the conclusion was that perhaps the success of African Americans and Jamaicans has more to do with nurture and a cultural disposition for those sports.

No one makes an issue of South East Asians dominating badminton or Northern Europeans skiing, but it's all about role models and the infrastructure that is offered.

In the 80s I watched a documentary on the Beeb explaining why West Indian cricketers were genetically predisposed to be superior cricketers :snicker no one is saying that now!

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

^^yes but for whatever reason..white blokes are slow.

only one has ever run under 10secs, that's a pretty amazing stat.

 

[Federberg]

That's not what I take from that. Fast white athletes find other options.

 

[calitennis127]

^there was a study of fast twitch done some years ago in Europe that was peer reviewed and published. The conclusion was that although there was a preponderance of fast twitch genes in West Africa there was no more than amongst the European gene stock. Some sports journalists in the UK wrote an article about it, I forget which newspaper, but the conclusion was that perhaps the success of African Americans and Jamaicans has more to do with nurture and a cultural disposition for those sports.

No one makes an issue of South East Asians dominating badminton or Northern Europeans skiing, but it's all about role models and the infrastructure that is offered.

In the 80s I watched a documentary on the Beeb explaining why West Indian cricketers were genetically predisposed to be superior cricketers :snicker no one is saying that now!

Well there are about a million other studies which show the opposite.....any discussion of genetic differences that does not mention the differences between sympathetic and parasympathetic nerve dominance is incomplete.

The notion that society/nurture is mainly to account for the demographic trends we see in athletics is nonsense. In America, there are far more whites in the country who love football than even the total number of blacks, and yet blacks dominate at the skill positions. There is no comparison in the average athleticism.

 

[Federberg]

^Let's agree to disagree then. We have seen cycles where different nations have dominated at various sports, and there is always an attempt to suggest dominance is genetically pre-determined, and then those nations success fades away. It's not clear to me that it's anything more than clustering. Success breeds success. The recent success of Eastern Europeans in boxing is a perfect example of this, but you can look at Cuban amateur boxing as well. It is not clear to me that genetics is necessarily responsbile for this. I don't dismiss it, but that's the easy excuse

 

[calitennis127]

^Let's agree to disagree then. We have seen cycles where different nations have dominated at various sports, and there is always an attempt to suggest dominance is genetically pre-determined, and then those nations success fades away. It's not clear to me that it's anything more than clustering. Success breeds success. The recent success of Eastern Europeans in boxing is a perfect example of this, but you can look at Cuban amateur boxing as well. It is not clear to me that genetics is necessarily responsbile for this. I don't dismiss it, but that's the easy excuse

No, it is an explanation of scientists who do hard research without PC sensibilities affecting them. Black dominance at wide receiver and running back is not going to end any time soon. The only way you can think they are not genetically superior in terms of athleticism is if you really haven't been around athletic scenes with a racial mix too much.

There are no white Russell Westbrooks or LeBron James or Percy Harvins. You can look far and wide and you won't find them, even though whites love sports just as much as blacks and outnumber them 6 to 1 in the American population.

Look at what Serena is doing.....if that doesn't show you reality, then nothing will.

 

[Riotbeard]

^Let's agree to disagree then. We have seen cycles where different nations have dominated at various sports, and there is always an attempt to suggest dominance is genetically pre-determined, and then those nations success fades away. It's not clear to me that it's anything more than clustering. Success breeds success. The recent success of Eastern Europeans in boxing is a perfect example of this, but you can look at Cuban amateur boxing as well. It is not clear to me that genetics is necessarily responsbile for this. I don't dismiss it, but that's the easy excuse

No, it is an explanation of scientists who do hard research without PC sensibilities affecting them. Black dominance at wide receiver and running back is not going to end any time soon. The only way you can think they are not genetically superior in terms of athleticism is if you really haven't been around athletic scenes with a racial mix too much.

There are no white Russell Westbrooks or LeBron James or Percy Harvins. You can look far and wide and you won't find them, even though whites love sports just as much as blacks and outnumber them 6 to 1 in the American population.

Look at what Serena is doing.....if that doesn't show you reality, then nothing will.

Stop languishing in vagaries. Provide a citation, let us look at articles by these scientists and decide for ourselves. You are making pretty radical genetic claims, without specific authorities.

Also look beyond the U.S. If your theory is correct, why isn't the world cup or tennis dominated by African countries?

 

[calitennis127]

Stop languishing in vagaries. Provide a citation, let us look at articles by these scientists and decide for ourselves. You are making pretty radical genetic claims, without specific authorities.

First of all, these claims are not "radical" but obvious - as murat would say (inappropriately) of atheism - to anyone who gets to puberty. In athletic settings throughout my life, I have been around whites, blacks, Puerto Ricans, Chinese, Indians, you name it. Just to the naked eye, the average athleticism of blacks is far above the average athleticism in the other groups. It is so obvious that to deny it would be like saying that a snowball is as big as a boulder. No one wants to say it publicly though, because it will violate the precious doctrine of human equality that the post-Christian West has hinged itself to in a dimwitted fashion. If you dispense with the doctrine of human equality, then you may have to dispense with such precious leftwing notions as "fund Baltimore more and it will look just like the suburbs".

As for the studies, I will just tell you this: if you look at the peer-reviewed literature of physiologists, which consists of scientific studies that are published only after being reviewed and challenged by other researchers in the field, you see countless studies of hard science which show huge differences in racial anatomy. I would gladly PM a couple examples for you. I was introduced to this a couple years ago by a friend who is a brilliant doctor, and he gave me examples of studies from, among others, Duke University's Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences as well as the University of Alabama School of Medicine, the Department of Applied Physiology at Florida, and numerous others.

Physiologists know the realities here.....it is the scientific illiterates in academia and the media who prop up the equality myth because of their political ideas. The knowledgeable doctors just won't say anything about it because they would rather have their cushy jobs and social prominence than be harassed by leftwing activists with no lives about how "racist" they are and how they are unfit to be in their profession.

Also look beyond the U.S. If your theory is correct, why isn't the world cup or tennis dominated by African countries?

It is hard for me to comment on soccer, since I don't know very much about it. But my understanding about many of the athletic scenes in Africa is that the infrastructure, organization, and nutrition is so bad that many of these teams are hopeless. In America - where the basic healthcare and nutrition is more or less equal across society - you see that whites simply cannot compete with blacks for the most part in football and basketball. There are some whites who are exceptions to the rule, of course, but they are exceptions. It is no coincidence that almost all of the mobile QBs in the NFL including your precious Cam Newton are black. Manziel is the only scrambling white QB I can think of with any notoriety. Vick, Kaepernick, RG III, Russell Wilson, and other mobile QBs are almost all black.

As for tennis, you see in the few blacks who do play it that they are far more athletic than their peers on average. Monfils is a great example of this, as are Venus and Serena. Isn't it interesting that when you think of the "most athletic" players on both the men's and women's side, automatically the tiny number of blacks on tour come to mind? And blacks constitute maybe 2 or 3% of the players.

 

[Riotbeard]

As for the studies, I will just tell you this: if you look at the peer-reviewed literature of physiologists, which consists of scientific studies that are published only after being reviewed and challenged by other researchers in the field, you see countless studies of hard science which show huge differences in racial anatomy. I would gladly PM a couple examples for you.

Please send along, I would honestly be interested to see them, as it contradicts the way historians of science (including myself) frame this dialog. I would be honestly interested to read a relatively recent peer review study that discusses differential physiology or anatomy.

It is hard for me to comment on soccer, since I don't know very much about it. But my understanding about many of the athletic scenes in Africa is that the infrastructure, organization, and nutrition is so bad that many of these teams are hopeless. In America - where the basic healthcare and nutrition is more or less equal across society - you see that whites simply cannot compete with blacks for the most part in football and basketball. There are some whites who are exceptions to the rule, of course, but they are exceptions. It is no coincidence that almost all of the mobile QBs in the NFL including your precious Cam Newton are black. Manziel is the only scrambling white QB I can think of with any notoriety. Vick, Kaepernick, RG III, Russell Wilson, and other mobile QBs are almost all black.

As for tennis, you see in the few blacks who do play it that they are far more athletic than their peers on average. Monfils is a great example of this, as are Venus and Serena. Isn't it interesting that when you think of the "most athletic" players on both the men's and women's side, automatically the tiny number of blacks on tour come to mind? And blacks constitute maybe 2 or 3% of the players.

This is all anecdotal evidence and would not at all hold up to scientific study. My only point with soccer and tennis is that they are truly international (thus outside of the socioeconomic contexts of the U.S.) and your point falls apart or is at least not supported by anecdotal data. I wouldn't say Monfils is a more talented athlete than say Nadal, and I can think of plenty of great tennis players who are better athletes than James Blake or Tsonga, for example.

[/quote]

 

[calitennis127]

It is hard for me to comment on soccer, since I don't know very much about it. But my understanding about many of the athletic scenes in Africa is that the infrastructure, organization, and nutrition is so bad that many of these teams are hopeless. In America - where the basic healthcare and nutrition is more or less equal across society - you see that whites simply cannot compete with blacks for the most part in football and basketball. There are some whites who are exceptions to the rule, of course, but they are exceptions. It is no coincidence that almost all of the mobile QBs in the NFL including your precious Cam Newton are black. Manziel is the only scrambling white QB I can think of with any notoriety. Vick, Kaepernick, RG III, Russell Wilson, and other mobile QBs are almost all black.

As for tennis, you see in the few blacks who do play it that they are far more athletic than their peers on average. Monfils is a great example of this, as are Venus and Serena. Isn't it interesting that when you think of the "most athletic" players on both the men's and women's side, automatically the tiny number of blacks on tour come to mind? And blacks constitute maybe 2 or 3% of the players.

This is all anecdotal evidence and would not at all hold up to scientific study.

Of course it isn't a scientific study in the formal laboratory sense. But even if you go by 40-times and the statistical production that is directly caused by speed advantage (rushing yards), black mobile quarterbacks are just one piece of a huge amount of evidence of black athletic superiority. Most quarterbacks are white, and even in a total sense, they don't have as many super athletes among them as the much smaller total number of black quarterbacks.

My only point with soccer and tennis is that they are truly international (thus outside of the socioeconomic contexts of the U.S.) and your point falls apart or is at least not supported by anecdotal data.

How? Blacks hardly play tennis, and as I said about African soccer, most of those teams and players are at a total disadvantage in terms of training, nutrition, infrastructure, and so forth. Race is not the only factor at play, but all else equal, blacks are far more athletic than whites.

I mean, for goodness sake, do you follow the NFL Combine at all? When was the last time a white player ever clocked in with the highest 40 time? When was the last time the top 20 40-times were from all white players or 95% white players like they are every year from black players?

I have been following basketball all my life. I have never seen a white post player remotely as athletic as DeAndre Jordan or Dwight Howard. And where are the white analogues to the black swingmen players like LeBron, Kobe, Jordan, Wade, Clyde Drexler? You can search and search all day and you won't find them.

Oh yeah, Larry Bird. The guy who was known for being great despite not being an athletic freak.

I wouldn't say Monfils is a more talented athlete than say Nadal, and I can think of plenty of great tennis players who are better athletes than James Blake or Tsonga, for example.

The percentage of black players on the ATP Tour and WTA Tour is miniscule. The fact that there are a small handful of highly athletic whites on the ATP Tour who are in the athleticism conversation with Monfils does not refute the point that on average blacks are far more athletic than whites; in fact, it only reinforces it. On a tour that is 90%-plus white, only the very very elite minority is in the same athletic conversation as the tiny number of blacks on tour. That should tell you something.

And even in the case of Blake - as much of a fruit as he was - when he was at his peak and really attacking with his forehand, he was far more explosive than pretty much everyone on tour. Federer was his main foil when he was on fire, but again, Federer is in that .00000001% of whites that we are talking about.

Tsonga is not the best mover side to side, but even for a big guy, he is much more athletic than most of his big-guy counterparts. And in terms of explosive power in the upper body he is just in a different league than the rest.

 

[Riotbeard]

It is hard for me to comment on soccer, since I don't know very much about it. But my understanding about many of the athletic scenes in Africa is that the infrastructure, organization, and nutrition is so bad that many of these teams are hopeless. In America - where the basic healthcare and nutrition is more or less equal across society - you see that whites simply cannot compete with blacks for the most part in football and basketball. There are some whites who are exceptions to the rule, of course, but they are exceptions. It is no coincidence that almost all of the mobile QBs in the NFL including your precious Cam Newton are black. Manziel is the only scrambling white QB I can think of with any notoriety. Vick, Kaepernick, RG III, Russell Wilson, and other mobile QBs are almost all black.

As for tennis, you see in the few blacks who do play it that they are far more athletic than their peers on average. Monfils is a great example of this, as are Venus and Serena. Isn't it interesting that when you think of the "most athletic" players on both the men's and women's side, automatically the tiny number of blacks on tour come to mind? And blacks constitute maybe 2 or 3% of the players.

This is all anecdotal evidence and would not at all hold up to scientific study.

Of course it isn't a scientific study in the formal laboratory sense. But even if you go by 40-times and the statistical production that is directly caused by speed advantage (rushing yards), black mobile quarterbacks are just one piece of a huge amount of evidence of black athletic superiority. Most quarterbacks are white, and even in a total sense, they don't have as many super athletes among them as the much smaller total number of black quarterbacks.

My only point with soccer and tennis is that they are truly international (thus outside of the socioeconomic contexts of the U.S.) and your point falls apart or is at least not supported by anecdotal data.

How? Blacks hardly play tennis, and as I said about African soccer, most of those teams and players are at a total disadvantage in terms of training, nutrition, infrastructure, and so forth. Race is not the only factor at play, but all else equal, blacks are far more athletic than whites.

I mean, for goodness sake, do you follow the NFL Combine at all? When was the last time a white player ever clocked in with the highest 40 time? When was the last time the top 20 40-times were from all white players or 95% white players like they are every year from black players?

I have been following basketball all my life. I have never seen a white post player remotely as athletic as DeAndre Jordan or Dwight Howard. And where are the white analogues to the black swingmen players like LeBron, Kobe, Jordan, Wade, Clyde Drexler? You can search and search all day and you won't find them.

Oh yeah, Larry Bird. The guy who was known for being great despite not being an athletic freak.

I wouldn't say Monfils is a more talented athlete than say Nadal, and I can think of plenty of great tennis players who are better athletes than James Blake or Tsonga, for example.

The percentage of black players on the ATP Tour and WTA Tour is miniscule. The fact that there are a small handful of highly athletic whites on the ATP Tour who are in the athleticism conversation with Monfils does not refute the point that on average blacks are far more athletic than whites; in fact, it only reinforces it. On a tour that is 90%-plus white, only the very very elite minority is in the same athletic conversation as the tiny number of blacks on tour. That should tell you something.

And even in the case of Blake - as much of a fruit as he was - when he was at his peak and really attacking with his forehand, he was far more explosive than pretty much everyone on tour. Federer was his main foil when he was on fire, but again, Federer is in that .00000001% of whites that we are talking about.

Tsonga is not the best mover side to side, but even for a big guy, he is much more athletic than most of his big-guy counterparts. And in terms of explosive power in the upper body he is just in a different league than the rest.

It just feels like great white athletes for you are the exception, and with black people, who maybe are not great athletes or not dominating a sport, they are the exception. Your seeing the conclusion without laying out the facts. Take a country like Brazil with a very similar ratio of black to white people, why is there athletic scene not dominated by black people? There are certainly great Afro-Brazillian football players, but their hardly a monolithic force. Plenty of Latin American countries have large populations of people of African descendants, but to my knowledge they don't have such a disproportionate amount of black athletes.

Also correlation is not causation. Just because there are a disproportionate amount of black athletes does not mean inherent, inherited physical differences (I will admit I have only skimmed what you pm'd and plan on giving it a closer look tomorrow, when I have more time).

 

[calitennis127]

It just feels like great white athletes for you are the exception, and with black people, who maybe are not great athletes or not dominating a sport, they are the exception. Your seeing the conclusion without laying out the facts. Take a country like Brazil with a very similar ratio of black to white people, why is there athletic scene not dominated by black people? There are certainly great Afro-Brazillian football players, but their hardly a monolithic force.

I know very little about international soccer so it is hard for me to comment. However, I will say that soccer is a game which places more of a premium on endurance and lateral quickness than it does leaping ability or straight-line speed the way basketball and football do. In soccer, the field is very congested and it is very hard to individually take over as a physical specimen. In the World Cup, for example, you can't be a stud who runs a 4.3 40-yard dash and just kick the ball straight up the field while you run past everyone and then take a clear shot at net. Rather, you have to pass and methodically make your way up the field with your teammates. Plus, you have to go for hours and hours and hours on end.

The specific black strengths in athletics have to do with leaping and running explosiveness in short bursts, not long-term endurance. (Although, even then, Kenyans are generally the best long-distance runners in the Olympics.) But even among racial groups, there is a wide variation of physical qualities such that they are not homogeneous. There is a difference between Northern Europeans and Spaniards, for instance, just as there are differences between East Africans and West Africans. This owes to biological differences going back millennia.

Plenty of Latin American countries have large populations of people of African descendants, but to my knowledge they don't have such a disproportionate amount of black athletes.

I don't know much about that scene either, but I do know the NBA like a book, since it has been my favorite sports league throughout my life. And the only two Brazilians in the NBA (Nene and Barbosa) are both black - and they are physical freaks, even with a lot of mileage on their tires. Barbosa's athleticism really helped the Warriors in the Finals in many key moments.

Also correlation is not causation.

This line is one of my personal greatest pet peeves. It is said over and over in academic circles by people who think they are saying something really profound when they just aren't.

Just because there are a disproportionate amount of black athletes does not mean inherent, inherited physical differences

And my case is not based strictly on data that you are labeling as mere "correlation". I also have been looking into the hard science for a long time. But the preponderance of black athletes in all of the speed and high-athletic positions in the major sports is a clear reality and a very telling indicator; it is something that you need to address directly and not just brush aside because it is inconvenient.

Like I said, as someone who has followed all of the major sports closely throughout my life, with whites in America outnumbering blacks by a ratio of almost 7 to 1 and being just as sports-obsessed as blacks.....

- How do you explain the almost 100% black percentage of the NFL's primary speed and quickness positions (wide receiver, defensive back, running back and more and more, tight end and linebacker as well)?

- How do you explain why at the NFL Combine each year the fastest 40-times are always from black players, with the top 20 almost always being all black?

- How do you explain that every year in the NBA dunk contest all the contestants are black?

- How do you explain why there has never been even one white NBA swingman in the athletic class of Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, McGrady, Wade, etc.?

- Where are the white centers and power forwards with the athleticism of DeAndre Jordan or Dwight Howard?

- Where are the white point guards with 40-inch vertical leaps like John Wall and Derrick Rose?

- Why have so many leading base stealers in the MLB been black?

- Why are the NFL's and even college football's best rushing QB's almost all black?

- Why is the SEC Conference (the best college football conference as you know) almost all black at the key skill positions besides quarterback?


I could go on and on.....and these trends are such a clear pattern that to just dismiss them as a "couple anecdotes" or nothing more than mere "correlation" just doesn't make sense. They amount to a serious empirical pattern backed by statistics of all kinds, from 40-times, to vertical leap tests, to statistical production, to percentages of starting players at positions that demand the highest level of speed, leaping ability, and explosiveness, etc.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Racism also exists in the UK. I'm constantly amazed at the indifference of white ex soccer players to the fact that there are a negligible number of black coaches and managers in the football leagues in England. While black players are a significant percentage of all football teams now. The stats are so overwhelming, it's actually hilarious that anyone with half a brain cell can try to refute this.

But what seems to be happening in the United States seems to be on a whole other level (not in sports though).

The athletic prowess of different races or even a discussion about soccer shouldn't not be part of this thread. IMO

 

[Federberg]

I come over to the U.S all the time, but all this stuff... it's not encouraging. Here's another one...

http://www.iol.co.za/news/world/cops-release-sandra-bland-arrest-video-1.1888812?#.Va9bl_lVhBc

This is all started because of failure to signal?? A minor traffic violation leads to an alleged suicide. :cover

Out of interest does anyone have an impression about the odds of a white woman being incarcerated for the same type of violation? Judging by the family, she seems to come from a middle class background. Would that be accurate?