Australian Open 2024 [Men] - Grand Slam

[nehmeth]

I was rewatching the Alcaraz v. Zverev match this afternoon and had a few thoughts and questions. I’ve been advocating for Carlos and his coach to create some healthy space for Carlos to grow and figure things out on his own. But I was thinking for that to occur during tournaments other than the slams. Carlos has all the shots, but he looked adrift during some portions of the match. Margaret mentioned getting in some match play before the AO which probably would have helped. Do you folks think he would have played this match differently/better with JCF there? Would there have been a different outcome? The young man is 20 years old and #2 in the world, and while the loss today was a bummer, he’s on a healthy trajectory.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I was rewatching the Alcaraz v. Zverev match this afternoon and had a few thoughts and questions. I’ve been advocating for Carlos and his coach to create some healthy space for Carlos to grow and figure things out on his own. But I was thinking for that to occur during tournaments other than the slams. Carlos has all the shots, but he looked adrift during some portions of the match. Margaret mentioned getting in some match play before the AO which probably would have helped. Do you folks think he would have played this match differently/better with JCF there? Would there have been a different outcome? The young man is 20 years old and #2 in the world, and while the loss today was a bummer, he’s on a healthy trajectory.

I feel he does play better with JCF in his box, still he has to work our situations by himself on court, I am totally against the coaching allowed both in the ATP/WTA, it is 'spoon feeding' as far as I am concerned especially at this level, when pressure points arise in a match, this is when a player has to play the correct shot, this is where I feel the player becomes more 'mentally strong' going forward in a match. I think at times we forget he is 20 years old, he is a quick learner and I am certain he will look back at the match he played against Zverev and learn from it going forward.

 

[shawnbm]

He just turned 20 years of age a few months ago and already owns 2 majors. That's is a lot. That puts them in the category with guys like Borg and Nadal. He will get some bones in the road, but you know he is going to be going very deep in the majors for years to come and I think he will in plenty more significant championships. There is simply too much talent, speed and power for him not to prevail in more major championships.

 

[tented]

I was rewatching the Alcaraz v. Zverev match this afternoon and had a few thoughts and questions. I’ve been advocating for Carlos and his coach to create some healthy space for Carlos to grow and figure things out on his own. But I was thinking for that to occur during tournaments other than the slams. Carlos has all the shots, but he looked adrift during some portions of the match. Margaret mentioned getting in some match play before the AO which probably would have helped. Do you folks think he would have played this match differently/better with JCF there? Would there have been a different outcome? The young man is 20 years old and #2 in the world, and while the loss today was a bummer, he’s on a healthy trajectory.

I don't think not playing a pre-AO tournament was the problem, or would have helped if he had. I think you're correct about creating space around him and figuring things out on his own. He has fallen into the trap of looking at JCF before and after every point. (I do agree with Margaret that allowing coaching should never have been implemented.)

But when has another true champion done this? I can't think of any. You never saw Roger look at his box. Djokovic looks in order to get positive feedback, but not coaching. Serena never looked at her box for help. But Carlos is, which is the tennis equivalent of not being weaned. JCF should tell everyone in their box not to do anything other than clap after points. No coaching. Force Alcaraz to figure things out himself.

He also needs to learn the lesson of playing a tournament point-by-point. I feel he looks ahead too much, anticipating matches he hasn't yet earned the right to be in, which has cost him a few losses, including today.

 

[El Dude]

Here's putting Alcaraz in context. He was about the same age at the 2024 AO, his 12th Slam appearance, as Daniil Medvedev was at his first Slam appearance. Medvedev broke in a bit late, but still.

Consider also that Alcaraz won his first at age 19, his second at age 20 -- his 8th and 10th Slam appearances, respectively. Medvedev won his only Slam (thus far) at age 25, his 19th appearance.

 

[nehmeth]

I feel he does play better with JCF in his box, still he has to work our situations by himself on court, I am totally against the coaching allowed both in the ATP/WTA, it is 'spoon feeding' as far as I am concerned especially at this level, when pressure points arise in a match, this is when a player has to play the correct shot, this is where I feel the player becomes more 'mentally strong' going forward in a match. I think at times we forget he is 20 years old, he is a quick learner and I am certain he will look back at the match he played against Zverev and learn from it going forward.

Completely agree. But after watching tennis for over 50 years, I just thought I was a recalcitrant dinosaur for hating the coaching.

 

[roberto]

Completely agree. But after watching tennis for over 50 years, I just thought I was a recalcitrant dinosaur for hating the coaching.

Me three lol--well put!

 

[roberto]

I don't think not playing a pre-AO tournament was the problem, or would have helped if he had. I think you're correct about creating space around him and figuring things out on his own. He had fallen into the trap of looking at JCF before and after every point. (I do agree with Margaret that allowing coaching should never have been implemented.)

But when has another true champion done this? I can't think of any. You never saw Roger look at his box. Djokovic looks in order to get positive feedback, but not coaching. Serena never looked at her box for help. But Carlos is, which is the tennis equivalent of not being weaned. JCF should tell everyone in their box not to do anything other than clap after points. No coaching. Force Alcaraz to figure things out himself.

He also needs to learn the lesson of playing a tournament point-by-point. I feel he looks ahead too much, anticipating matches he hasn't yet earned the right to be in, which has cost him a few losses, including today.

You saved me writing a post and more eloquently at that . I think weaning is a great way to put it---he's WAY too talented and creative on the court to be looking (and receiving gladly by the way so there's some co-dependence going on lol) to his box before almost every shot....I just don't know if JCF will cut him off message- wise since, kidding aside, he seems to be a willing accomplice

 

[don_fabio]

I don't think not playing a pre-AO tournament was the problem, or would have helped if he had. I think you're correct about creating space around him and figuring things out on his own. He had fallen into the trap of looking at JCF before and after every point. (I do agree with Margaret that allowing coaching should never have been implemented.)

But when has another true champion done this? I can't think of any. You never saw Roger look at his box. Djokovic looks in order to get positive feedback, but not coaching. Serena never looked at her box for help. But Carlos is, which is the tennis equivalent of not being weaned. JCF should tell everyone in their box not to do anything other than clap after points. No coaching. Force Alcaraz to figure things out himself.

I do find it annoying when a potential future all time great player looks at his box before and after each point. Feels like a completely wrong approach. Alcaraz needs to learn how to play with a well prepared game plan ahead and then just execute it on the court, concentrate on that part and stay more with himself on the court, locked in as they say. Constantly looking for answers elsewhere is just a distraction for a player and won't do him good in the long run.

He also needs to learn the lesson of playing a tournament point-by-point. I feel he looks ahead too much, anticipating matches he hasn't yet earned the right to be in, which has cost him a few losses, including today.

He does seem to get cocky a little bit. He knows he can beat all the guys, he probably thinks he is a better player, but on any given day in the arena you have to stay in the moment and earn it. It's simple. I want to see him work on improving his game, instead of looking ahead to play final of a slam. Sinner is a best example of a hard working guy, who improved a lot recently and it will pay off.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I do find it annoying when a potential future all time great player looks at his box before and after each point. Feels like a completely wrong approach. Alcaraz needs to learn how to play with a well prepared game plan ahead and then just execute it on the court, concentrate on that part and stay more with himself on the court, locked in as they say. Constantly looking for answers elsewhere is just a distraction for a player and won't do him good in the long run.

He does seem to get cocky a little bit. He knows he can beat all the guys, he probably thinks he is a better player, but on any given day in the arena you have to stay in the moment and earn it. It's simple. I want to see him work on improving his game, instead of looking ahead to play final of a slam. Sinner is a best example of a hard working guy, who improved a lot recently and it will pay off.

Don I agree with your post, though regarding Sinner his improvement has paid off due to his hard work,. Sinner doesent have the weapons than Alcaraz, has,he has been a work in progress, has developed his game at his own pace.

 

[Moxie]

I don't think not playing a pre-AO tournament was the problem, or would have helped if he had. I think you're correct about creating space around him and figuring things out on his own. He had fallen into the trap of looking at JCF before and after every point. (I do agree with Margaret that allowing coaching should never have been implemented.)

But when has another true champion done this? I can't think of any. You never saw Roger look at his box. Djokovic looks in order to get positive feedback, but not coaching. Serena never looked at her box for help. But Carlos is, which is the tennis equivalent of not being weaned. JCF should tell everyone in their box not to do anything other than clap after points. No coaching. Force Alcaraz to figure things out himself.

He also needs to learn the lesson of playing a tournament point-by-point. I feel he looks ahead too much, anticipating matches he hasn't yet earned the right to be in, which has cost him a few losses, including today.

I agree with almost all of this, including that I don't think not playing a tune-up was the problem. I definitely think that impatience is a problem, and a love of going for the big shot, which somewhat relates to playing more point-by-point. Personally, I see that as impatience within a match, not beyond it. I have never felt like he is ahead of himself in anticipating the next round, but I could be wrong and will look for that. Interesting point.

I didn't start watching the match today until it turned around, so I only know what the commentators said, and what was posted here, but it seemed he had no Plan B for dealing with Zverev having the kind of serving day he was having today. No adjustments?

Which leads us to coaching, on- and off the court. Obviously, he could talk to JCF on the phone/zoom prior to the match to formulate one. Whether they did that or not...?? But I agree with all who say that there never should have been on-court coaching, and I fear for a young player like Alcaraz, and it's all he knows. It's no way to cut your chops. Alcaraz seems to have good court awareness and generally makes pretty good and sometimes awesome, creative choices. Maybe there was not much he could do against a barrage of out-of-his-shoes serving by AZ...but some change in court positioning, a la Medvedev v. HH might have helped. I don't know if he was being stubborn or stupid, but he doesn't come off as stupid.

And as has also been said, he's 20, and still has lessons to learn.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I agree with almost all of this, including that I don't think not playing a tune-up was the problem. I definitely think that impatience is a problem, and a love of going for the big shot, which somewhat relates to playing more point-by-point. Personally, I see that as impatience within a match, not beyond it. I have never felt like he is ahead of himself in anticipating the next round, but I could be wrong and will look for that. Interesting point.

I didn't start watching the match today until it turned around, so I only know what the commentators said, and what was posted here, but it seemed he had no Plan B for dealing with Zverev having the kind of serving day he was having today. No adjustments?

Which leads us to coaching, on- and off the court. Obviously, he could talk to JCF on the phone/zoom prior to the match to formulate one. Whether they did that or not...?? But I agree with all who say that there never should have been on-court coaching, and I fear for a young player like Alcaraz, and it's all he knows. It's no way to cut your chops. Alcaraz seems to have good court awareness and generally makes pretty good and sometimes awesome, creative choices. Maybe there was not much he could do against a barrage of out-of-his-shoes serving by AZ...but some change in court positioning, a la Medvedev v. HH might have helped. I don't know if he was being stubborn or stupid, but he doesn't come off as stupid.

And as has also been said, he's 20, and still has lessons to learn.

Seeing this is the first GS of the year, I feel it helps all players, playing a pre tournament, getting use to our climate and conditions, you can come here and practice early all your like, though that dosent equate playing a pre tournament and getting match practice. Maybe it wasnt the problem, but personally speaking I felt it might have helped Alcaraz in the long run, I understand he injured himself in practice last year and had to withdraw, maybe that was a reason he didnt play a pre tournament, in fear of getting an injury, he did play 2 exho matches before arriving in Australia

 

[Moxie]

Seeing this is the first GS of the year, I feel it helps all players, playing a pre tournament, getting use to our climate and conditions, you can come here and practice early all your like, though that dosent equate playing a pre tournament and getting match practice. Maybe it wasnt the problem, but personally speaking I felt it might have helped Alcaraz in the long run, I understand he injured himself in practice last year and had to withdraw, maybe that was a reason he didnt play a pre tournament, in fear of getting an injury, he did play 2 exho matches before arriving in Australia

I understand the reasoning, but it's hard to say it affected him. He was playing himself into the tournament, and played an immaculate match the round prior. It doesn't seem that the conditions got to him, or lack of conditioning. He got a fully on-song Zverev, and he handled it poorly. It seemed a lot more about lack of strategy than lack of match play.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I understand the reasoning, but it's hard to say it affected him. He was playing himself into the tournament, and played an immaculate match the round prior. It doesn't seem that the conditions got to him, or lack of conditioning. He got a fully on-song Zverev, and he handled it poorly. It seemed a lot more about lack of strategy than lack of match play.

Quite frankly I was shocked, his prior match to me was a 'mini statement' as one of the players ready to reach the final, a learning curve going forward, his lack of strategy in the match

 

[Moxie]

Quite frankly I was shocked, his prior match to me was a 'mini statement' as one of the players ready to reach the final, a learning curve going forward, his lack of strategy in the match

He definitely looked ready to peak for the next round and beyond. Maybe @tented was right that he underestimated Zverev and just wasn't ready for him to play this well. Back to the drawing board!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I am a doubles tragic just watched a men's SF final match between Rohan Bopana/Matt Ebden v Machac/Zhizhen, Bopana/Ebden were pushed all the way and it went down to the 10 point TB. Well done to Bopana/Ebden winning 64 36 (10-7) into the mens final!
I wonder if the pressure of being the No 1 doubles player now will get to Bopana, in the final, though this has been his dream of reaching the top in doubles and at the tender age of 43 he has deserved it! One of my favorite doubles player!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

The 2nd Mens SF again is going to a 10 point TB
S.Bolelli/A.Vavassori vs Y.Hanfmann/D.Koepfer
My Italians are leading 8-5 Forza Italy!
Italian team of S.Bolelli/Vavassori win the ten point TB 10-5 and have made the mens final Forza Italy and will play Bopana/Ebden in the final

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

The lack of playing a pre-tournament event excuse is BS. Alcaraz played many tournaments in the fall, after the US Open. He just wasn't winning any of them. The fact of the matter is that we have 4 months of evidence, beginning at the US Open, of Alcaraz not playing well. Alcaraz has been losing to players he really shouldn't. It's time to start wondering if players have figured him out.

 

[nehmeth]

The lack of playing a pre-tournament event excuse is BS. Alcaraz played many tournaments in the fall, after the US Open. He just wasn't winning any of them. The fact of the matter is that we have 4 months of evidence, beginning at the US Open, of Alcaraz not playing well. Alcaraz has been losing to players he really shouldn't. It's time to start wondering if players have figured him out.

You mean in the way Fokina, Safiullin, T. Daniel, or Mannarino have figured Shelton out? Or maybe the way Sinner figured Djokovic out? Carlos won Wimbledon and broke the streak of one of the winningest guys in history at SW19. He was launched into the spotlight of the worldwide media, not just the tennis part. For 20 years of age, I think the young man has handled all of it with aplomb. Zverev was playing excellent tennis, executing on his service games and return of serve. It was some of the best tennis I have ever seen him play.

 

[El Dude]

The lack of playing a pre-tournament event excuse is BS. Alcaraz played many tournaments in the fall, after the US Open. He just wasn't winning any of them. The fact of the matter is that we have 4 months of evidence, beginning at the US Open, of Alcaraz not playing well. Alcaraz has been losing to players he really shouldn't. It's time to start wondering if players have figured him out.

Even if this is true, we have to see how he counters. In other words, even if there is a "book on Carlos," players of his talent level almost always learn how to adjust, at least to some extent.

The other factor is that while I think it is basically a foregone conclusion that Alcaraz will enter the club of all-time greats, where exactly he ends up remains to be seen. There's several tiers of ATGs, from the "borderline ATGs" like Nastase/Vilas/Courier to the "lesser ATGs" like Wilander/Becker/Edberg/Agassi/Murray to the "greater ATGs" like Connors/Borg/McEnroe/Lendl/Sampras to the "GOATs" like the Big Three.

Given the last 20 years, I think we're all a bit jaded--or distorted--in our perspective of what constitutes greatness, when at least according to the paragraph above, there are four distinct tiers of greatness; a spectrum, in other words.

At this point, I see the over/under for Alcaraz being somewhere between lesser ATG and greater ATG...perhaps somewhere in the Agassi-to-Lendl range. He might be better or worse, but that's my personal midpoint of expectation. But expecting him to be as good as the Big Three is quite unfair.

And a note: When I'm talking about greatness, I am not merely talking about Slam total. Lendl was a far greater and more dominant player than Agassi, despite having the same number of Slams. But I won't go into that here at the risk of having my post be jettisoned to the History ghetto thread .