Aussie Open 2014: Ball and Courts faster...

[Luxilon Borg]

^ Federer uses both and somewhere in between with subtle adjustments depending on the shot. "Officially" it's usually claimed to be an Eastern, but agree that if you look at photos/footage it usually looks more like a semi-western.

I remember discussing this a few years ago and apparently Federer himself isn't really sure himself.

From studying hundreds of photos, I believe it is a semi western 90% of the time. On the return of serve it may lean toward Eastern.

 

[brokenshoelace]

No. He is a grinder who happens to do well on fast(er) surfaces than the others.

He has been blown away on fast courts far more than he has prevailed. Safin blew him away in the final, Federer at the US final, etc. etc. Stop the name calling. You are too aggressive.

First of all, I'm not resorting to name calling, though this type of arguments makes it pretty inviting. Hewitt being blown away by Fed and Safin has nothing to do with what type of courts he prefers, it just means that Federer and Safin played much better than him (Federer of course, is a far superior player).

My question to you, oh mighty expert, is WHEN HAS HEWITT EVER DONE WELL ON SLOW SURFACES? Until you can answer that question, and explain how he's had better results on faster surfaces, keep your silly arguments away.

"Mighty Expert"? You are just as guilty as trying to drown everybody in your world view.

My INITIAL comment which started you off on a tirade is that I thought it was amusing Hewitt asked Tennis Australia to speed up the Open. Then we got into all sorts of back and forth about a counter puncher is.

Let me make you happy..Hewitt is a grinder. Does that sound better?

A simple explanation of why Hewitt has not done better on clay is that he is one of the rare breed of consistent baseliners without a ton of rotation on his ball.

Let me offer this is side thought, not particularly related to the discussion,yesterdays final reminded me of the Hewitt's US win when Sampras just self destructed like Mission Impossible tape recorder.

Hewitt IS a counter-puncher. Nobody ever debated that. Just like nobody ever, until you, debates that he does better on faster surfaces. Which is why he wanted the AO to speed up the courts. Makes sense doesn't it?

But no of course, you think he's stupid for doing so.

"A simple explanation of why Hewitt has not done better on clay is that he is one of the rare breed of consistent baseliners without a ton of rotation on his ball."

They're not a rare breed. Davydenko, Nalbandian, Hewitt, Murray and even Djokovic play pretty flat.

Agree about Davydenko (in general) and Nalbandian, but surely you must be mistaken about Joker and Murray. We cannot be talking about the same two players. I have sat courtside side for over 50 of their matches and practice sessions. The amount of rotation on their ball is phenomenal. Really, this is not a matter of interpretation.

John Yandell measured Nadal at an average of 3300 rpm, Federer AND Joker and 2700, and Murray at
2400. Sampras? 1000.

Please don't spin this..no pun intended.

I have a question for you..do you think Federer uses an Eastern or Semi Western? There is much debate. I fall on the side of Semi Western.

I believe the ARE a rare breed...flat grinders.

Federer uses semi western.

Djoker and Murray definitely hit with much spin on their cross court forehands, but their down the line forehands and their respective backhands are pretty flat. Davydenko and Nalbandian hit the ball as flat as a pancake.

 

[Front242]

Most notable thing about the ROS these days is it's a pile of crap.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

First of all, I'm not resorting to name calling, though this type of arguments makes it pretty inviting. Hewitt being blown away by Fed and Safin has nothing to do with what type of courts he prefers, it just means that Federer and Safin played much better than him (Federer of course, is a far superior player).

My question to you, oh mighty expert, is WHEN HAS HEWITT EVER DONE WELL ON SLOW SURFACES? Until you can answer that question, and explain how he's had better results on faster surfaces, keep your silly arguments away.

"Mighty Expert"? You are just as guilty as trying to drown everybody in your world view.

My INITIAL comment which started you off on a tirade is that I thought it was amusing Hewitt asked Tennis Australia to speed up the Open. Then we got into all sorts of back and forth about a counter puncher is.

Let me make you happy..Hewitt is a grinder. Does that sound better?

A simple explanation of why Hewitt has not done better on clay is that he is one of the rare breed of consistent baseliners without a ton of rotation on his ball.

Let me offer this is side thought, not particularly related to the discussion,yesterdays final reminded me of the Hewitt's US win when Sampras just self destructed like Mission Impossible tape recorder.

Hewitt IS a counter-puncher. Nobody ever debated that. Just like nobody ever, until you, debates that he does better on faster surfaces. Which is why he wanted the AO to speed up the courts. Makes sense doesn't it?

But no of course, you think he's stupid for doing so.

"A simple explanation of why Hewitt has not done better on clay is that he is one of the rare breed of consistent baseliners without a ton of rotation on his ball."

They're not a rare breed. Davydenko, Nalbandian, Hewitt, Murray and even Djokovic play pretty flat.

Agree about Davydenko (in general) and Nalbandian, but surely you must be mistaken about Joker and Murray. We cannot be talking about the same two players. I have sat courtside side for over 50 of their matches and practice sessions. The amount of rotation on their ball is phenomenal. Really, this is not a matter of interpretation.

John Yandell measured Nadal at an average of 3300 rpm, Federer AND Joker and 2700, and Murray at
2400. Sampras? 1000.

Please don't spin this..no pun intended.

I have a question for you..do you think Federer uses an Eastern or Semi Western? There is much debate. I fall on the side of Semi Western.

I believe the ARE a rare breed...flat grinders.

Federer uses semi western.

Djoker and Murray definitely hit with much spin on their cross court forehands, but their down the line forehands and their respective backhands are pretty flat. Davydenko and Nalbandian hit the ball as flat as a pancake.

Thanks. We agree on that..many others for some reason are adamant about calling it an Eastern...
I disagree about their backhands. Both create a gorgeous textbook arc. Really, I can't see calling those two strokes flat. Of course, they CAN flatten it out..everyone can. I am talking about rally balls.

As you said, Nalby hits flat as a pan cake even in neutral rallies.

 

[brokenshoelace]

"Mighty Expert"? You are just as guilty as trying to drown everybody in your world view.

My INITIAL comment which started you off on a tirade is that I thought it was amusing Hewitt asked Tennis Australia to speed up the Open. Then we got into all sorts of back and forth about a counter puncher is.

Let me make you happy..Hewitt is a grinder. Does that sound better?

A simple explanation of why Hewitt has not done better on clay is that he is one of the rare breed of consistent baseliners without a ton of rotation on his ball.

Let me offer this is side thought, not particularly related to the discussion,yesterdays final reminded me of the Hewitt's US win when Sampras just self destructed like Mission Impossible tape recorder.

Hewitt IS a counter-puncher. Nobody ever debated that. Just like nobody ever, until you, debates that he does better on faster surfaces. Which is why he wanted the AO to speed up the courts. Makes sense doesn't it?

But no of course, you think he's stupid for doing so.

"A simple explanation of why Hewitt has not done better on clay is that he is one of the rare breed of consistent baseliners without a ton of rotation on his ball."

They're not a rare breed. Davydenko, Nalbandian, Hewitt, Murray and even Djokovic play pretty flat.

Agree about Davydenko (in general) and Nalbandian, but surely you must be mistaken about Joker and Murray. We cannot be talking about the same two players. I have sat courtside side for over 50 of their matches and practice sessions. The amount of rotation on their ball is phenomenal. Really, this is not a matter of interpretation.

John Yandell measured Nadal at an average of 3300 rpm, Federer AND Joker and 2700, and Murray at
2400. Sampras? 1000.

Please don't spin this..no pun intended.

I have a question for you..do you think Federer uses an Eastern or Semi Western? There is much debate. I fall on the side of Semi Western.

I believe the ARE a rare breed...flat grinders.

Federer uses semi western.

Djoker and Murray definitely hit with much spin on their cross court forehands, but their down the line forehands and their respective backhands are pretty flat. Davydenko and Nalbandian hit the ball as flat as a pancake.

Thanks. We agree on that..many others for some reason are adamant about calling it an Eastern...
I disagree about their backhands. Both create a gorgeous textbook arc. Really, I can't see call those two strokes flat. Of course, they CAN flatten it out..everyone can. I am talking about rally balls.

As you said, Nalby hits flat as a pan cake even in neutral rallies.

Most players these days will put SOME spin on their shots. But I'd say Novak's backhand, as well as Murray's (especially the latter) are more flatly hit than they are spinny, even in rallies.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Most notable thing about the ROS these days is it's a pile of crap.

:laydownlaughing

Well, Novak, Murray and Ferrer are all fine returners. Djokovic in fact, is a phenomenal one. Nadal is such an interesting case because his actual return (as a stroke) ranges from decent to flat out poor, and yet he breaks serve more than anyone on tour. Federer's return these days is atrocious but he used to be masterful at neutralizing rallies with a chipped return. Players have little incentive nowadays to be very aggressive with the return. Guys like Davydenko, Nalbandian and Hewitt were real punishers with their returns. The rest of the top 10 today mostly have iffy returns (Berdych, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Gasquet, etc...).

 

[Front242]

Most notable thing about the ROS these days is it's a pile of crap.

:laydownlaughing

Well, Novak, Murray and Ferrer are all fine returners. Djokovic in fact, is a phenomenal one. Nadal is such an interesting case because his actual return (as a stroke) ranges from decent to flat out poor, and yet he breaks serve more than anyone on tour. Federer's return these days is atrocious but he used to be masterful at neutralizing rallies with a chipped return. Players have little incentive nowadays to be very aggressive with the return. Guys like Davydenko, Nalbandian and Hewitt were real punishers with their returns. The rest of the top 10 today mostly have iffy returns (Berdych, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Gasquet, etc...).

Seriously, I'm too depressed seeing the crap ROS to wonder or observe how he's gripping his racquet

Edit: You know I meant Federer, right

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Hewitt IS a counter-puncher. Nobody ever debated that. Just like nobody ever, until you, debates that he does better on faster surfaces. Which is why he wanted the AO to speed up the courts. Makes sense doesn't it?

But no of course, you think he's stupid for doing so.

"A simple explanation of why Hewitt has not done better on clay is that he is one of the rare breed of consistent baseliners without a ton of rotation on his ball."

They're not a rare breed. Davydenko, Nalbandian, Hewitt, Murray and even Djokovic play pretty flat.

Agree about Davydenko (in general) and Nalbandian, but surely you must be mistaken about Joker and Murray. We cannot be talking about the same two players. I have sat courtside side for over 50 of their matches and practice sessions. The amount of rotation on their ball is phenomenal. Really, this is not a matter of interpretation.

John Yandell measured Nadal at an average of 3300 rpm, Federer AND Joker and 2700, and Murray at
2400. Sampras? 1000.

Please don't spin this..no pun intended.

I have a question for you..do you think Federer uses an Eastern or Semi Western? There is much debate. I fall on the side of Semi Western.

I believe the ARE a rare breed...flat grinders.

Federer uses semi western.

Djoker and Murray definitely hit with much spin on their cross court forehands, but their down the line forehands and their respective backhands are pretty flat. Davydenko and Nalbandian hit the ball as flat as a pancake.

Thanks. We agree on that..many others for some reason are adamant about calling it an Eastern...
I disagree about their backhands. Both create a gorgeous textbook arc. Really, I can't see call those two strokes flat. Of course, they CAN flatten it out..everyone can. I am talking about rally balls.

As you said, Nalby hits flat as a pan cake even in neutral rallies.

Most players these days will put SOME spin on their shots. But I'd say Novak's backhand, as well as Murray's (especially the latter) are more flatly hit than they are spinny, even in rallies.

Honestly, this not a who is right who is wrong, but two completely different interpretations. The amount of rotation on their forehands AND backhands is clear as day to me at least.

The RPM numbers back my observations.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Most notable thing about the ROS these days is it's a pile of crap.

:laydownlaughing

Well, Novak, Murray and Ferrer are all fine returners. Djokovic in fact, is a phenomenal one. Nadal is such an interesting case because his actual return (as a stroke) ranges from decent to flat out poor, and yet he breaks serve more than anyone on tour. Federer's return these days is atrocious but he used to be masterful at neutralizing rallies with a chipped return. Players have little incentive nowadays to be very aggressive with the return. Guys like Davydenko, Nalbandian and Hewitt were real punishers with their returns. The rest of the top 10 today mostly have iffy returns (Berdych, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Gasquet, etc...).

Have to agree.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Most notable thing about the ROS these days is it's a pile of crap.

:laydownlaughing

Well, Novak, Murray and Ferrer are all fine returners. Djokovic in fact, is a phenomenal one. Nadal is such an interesting case because his actual return (as a stroke) ranges from decent to flat out poor, and yet he breaks serve more than anyone on tour. Federer's return these days is atrocious but he used to be masterful at neutralizing rallies with a chipped return. Players have little incentive nowadays to be very aggressive with the return. Guys like Davydenko, Nalbandian and Hewitt were real punishers with their returns. The rest of the top 10 today mostly have iffy returns (Berdych, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Gasquet, etc...).

Seriously, I'm too depressed seeing the crap ROS to wonder or observe how he's gripping his racquet

Edit: You know I meant Federer, right

Tell me about it mate. I cried in my beer last night...:cry

 

[Front242]

Most notable thing about the ROS these days is it's a pile of crap.

:laydownlaughing

Well, Novak, Murray and Ferrer are all fine returners. Djokovic in fact, is a phenomenal one. Nadal is such an interesting case because his actual return (as a stroke) ranges from decent to flat out poor, and yet he breaks serve more than anyone on tour. Federer's return these days is atrocious but he used to be masterful at neutralizing rallies with a chipped return. Players have little incentive nowadays to be very aggressive with the return. Guys like Davydenko, Nalbandian and Hewitt were real punishers with their returns. The rest of the top 10 today mostly have iffy returns (Berdych, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Gasquet, etc...).

Seriously, I'm too depressed seeing the crap ROS to wonder or observe how he's gripping his racquet

Edit: You know I meant Federer, right

Tell me about it mate. I cried in my beer last night...:cry

I take it you saw the first set of the Brisbane final then :cry

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Most notable thing about the ROS these days is it's a pile of crap.

:laydownlaughing

Well, Novak, Murray and Ferrer are all fine returners. Djokovic in fact, is a phenomenal one. Nadal is such an interesting case because his actual return (as a stroke) ranges from decent to flat out poor, and yet he breaks serve more than anyone on tour. Federer's return these days is atrocious but he used to be masterful at neutralizing rallies with a chipped return. Players have little incentive nowadays to be very aggressive with the return. Guys like Davydenko, Nalbandian and Hewitt were real punishers with their returns. The rest of the top 10 today mostly have iffy returns (Berdych, Wawrinka, Tsonga, Gasquet, etc...).

Seriously, I'm too depressed seeing the crap ROS to wonder or observe how he's gripping his racquet

Edit: You know I meant Federer, right

Tell me about it mate. I cried in my beer last night...:cry

I take it you saw the first set of the Brisbane final then :cry

Yeh then went for sushi and ordered a pitcher of Japan's finest..Asahi...while I can, before
tournament season.

 

[Front242]

Well if Roger plays any set in Melbourne like he did that first set in Brisbane, we'll need a pitcher of whiskey instead of beer :/

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Well if Roger plays any set in Melbourne like he did that first set in Brisbane, we'll need a pitcher of whiskey instead of beer :/

You ain't kidding.uzzled

 

[britbox]

Roger Rasheed says Melbourne is slower than Brisbane.

https://twitter.com/roger_rasheed

"Hit on Margerat Court Arena today, when finished it will be superb, will add great atmosphere this year. Court is slower than Brisbane btw".

This is literally my least favorite part of any slam. Different players/coaches/commentators will provide different accounts of how fast/slow courts are playing, and people will lose their minds. While watching, very few will actually notice any difference...and Djokovic will play Nadal in the final

The aftermath of the draw is usually my least favourite part of a slam... two dozen conspiracy theories on how it was rigged and lengthy discussions about matches that often never take place!

 

[Denis]

Roger Rasheed says Melbourne is slower than Brisbane.

https://twitter.com/roger_rasheed

"Hit on Margerat Court Arena today, when finished it will be superb, will add great atmosphere this year. Court is slower than Brisbane btw".

This is literally my least favorite part of any slam. Different players/coaches/commentators will provide different accounts of how fast/slow courts are playing, and people will lose their minds. While watching, very few will actually notice any difference...and Djokovic will play Nadal in the final

The aftermath of the draw is usually my least favourite part of a slam... two dozen conspiracy theories on how it was rigged and lengthy discussions about matches that often never take place!

I love it actually. Nothing better than a good draw discussion and unsubstantiated speculation! If Nadal gets Ferrer, it was rigged by Nike. Everyone knows that.

 

[Moxie]

Roger Rasheed says Melbourne is slower than Brisbane.

https://twitter.com/roger_rasheed

"Hit on Margerat Court Arena today, when finished it will be superb, will add great atmosphere this year. Court is slower than Brisbane btw".

This is literally my least favorite part of any slam. Different players/coaches/commentators will provide different accounts of how fast/slow courts are playing, and people will lose their minds. While watching, very few will actually notice any difference...and Djokovic will play Nadal in the final

The aftermath of the draw is usually my least favourite part of a slam... two dozen conspiracy theories on how it was rigged and lengthy discussions about matches that often never take place!

I love it actually. Nothing better than a good draw discussion and unsubstantiated speculation! If Nadal gets Ferrer, it was rigged by Nike. Everyone knows that.

I'm with you, Deni. Love the anticipation. Still, if anyone mentions rigged draws or "cupcakes," I'll roll my eyes so hard they'll get stuck up in my head. :roll eyes: :snigger

 

[brokenshoelace]

Roger Rasheed says Melbourne is slower than Brisbane.

https://twitter.com/roger_rasheed

"Hit on Margerat Court Arena today, when finished it will be superb, will add great atmosphere this year. Court is slower than Brisbane btw".

This is literally my least favorite part of any slam. Different players/coaches/commentators will provide different accounts of how fast/slow courts are playing, and people will lose their minds. While watching, very few will actually notice any difference...and Djokovic will play Nadal in the final

The aftermath of the draw is usually my least favourite part of a slam... two dozen conspiracy theories on how it was rigged and lengthy discussions about matches that often never take place!

Nike dolls always get their wishes....

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Nike dolls always get their wishes....

Broken Mastoor... New poster. Welcome to the boards...

 

[brokenshoelace]

John Yandell measured Nadal at an average of 3300 rpm, Federer AND Joker and 2700, and Murray at
2400. Sampras? 1000.

Please don't spin this..no pun intended.

That's my issue with looking at numbers. They're so misleading and at times, flat out false. A quick Google search reveals various articles that have conflicting numbers to the ones you posted. I'm aware of the study you're referring to, but keep in mind it is measuring FOREHANDS. Novak Djokovic's backhand, and especially Andy Murray's backhand are relatively flat shots. I'm honestly not sure how that's even debatable. Murray in fact, by your definition, is from that "rare bread" (like Hewitt) that is a flat hitting counterpuncher (I maintain it's not THAT rare, and Gilles Simon is a prime example, who hits the ball with almost retro levels of flat). In fact, Murray's flat groundies are part of the reason why he hasn't excelled on clay (like Hewitt). His forehand has some spin when he hits it cross court, but it is significantly less than that of Nadal, Federer and even Djokovic. It's not nearly as heavy. Sometimes watching is enough to determine these things.

The study you're referring to says Federer hits with as much spin as Djokovic. I honestly find that hard to believe. His ground strokes have significantly more spin, especially on the backhand side (which the study doesn't account for). This is discounting the slice backhand, which Federer often uses, and I assume it has a crap ton of backspin/underspin. But that's a different issue.

You also have to keep in mind that all depends on the match-up strategies. For instance, Novak Djokovic will put more spin on his rally cross court forehand against Nadal than he would against other players, and that is because part of his strategy is to take Nadal off the court by gradually pulling him wide on his backhand side with heavy cross court forehands and open up the court. Against someone like Federer, Novak hits a bit flatter.

Very few players nowadays play "flat" in the traditional sense of the word (Berdych and Del Potro stand out). So of course someone like Pete Sampras will have average far less RPM's.