Another Look at Most Dominant Player

[Moxie]

2013 was actually pretty close between Rafa and Nole. Rafa won the extra slam and the 2 biggest meetings of the year so he does get the nod for most dominant but GSM's point about it being close is legit. Nole won 3 MS and 1 YEC which is better than 5 MS events IMO (regardless of what points say). The overall H2H was 3-3 that year though again Nadal won the 2 biggest meetings.

Not sure how I feel about saying 2 players were dominant unless each won 2 slams but that's just a difference in opinion.

So what do you think about 2016?

 

[GameSetAndMath]

No, he said that Novak wasn't dominant. I don't disagree with that. Read my post, and go back to the subtler arguments before the two of you decided to butt heads in ways that don't even make total sense. Novak was very strong that year, #1 most of it, but it was Rafa who took the tour by storm for the majority of that year. I agree that, if you were to pick a dominant player that year, it should be Nadal. But I thought we were understanding that you could have a "second most dominant" player, or some such title. In 2013, Rafa dominated, but Djokovic loomed large. In 2008, Nadal dominated, but Roger loomed. In 2011, Djokovic dominated, but Nadal kept close in the same way. This is the overlapping that El Dude was trying to describe, I think, and which I agree with.

In 2008 Nadal dominated and there is no question about that. He was both YE #1 and player of the year in 2008.

Similarly, in 2009 Fed dominated and there is no question about that. He was both YE #1 and player of the year in 2009.

But, 2013 was not comparable to 2008 and 2009 where there is a consensus on who is the most dominant player.
Very rarely is the player of the year award given in an year to a different player other than the one who finished YE#1.
2013 is one such year; Rafa finished #1 and Novak won player of the year award. That itself is good enough to
show that there is not much consensus about that year.

I would not bother to talk about 2011, where contrary to your claim Nadal was not looming large at all by any means.

 

[Carol]

2013 was actually pretty close between Rafa and Nole. Rafa won the extra slam and the 2 biggest meetings of the year so he does get the nod for most dominant but GSM's point about it being close is legit. Nole won 3 MS and 1 YEC which is better than 5 MS events IMO (regardless of what points say). The overall H2H was 3-3 that year though again Nadal won the 2 biggest meetings.

Not sure how I feel about saying 2 players were dominant unless each won 2 slams but that's just a difference in opinion.

Yeah, definitely it's your opinion......

 

[DarthFed]

So what do you think about 2016?

I'd say that's even closer. Obviously I'd prefer Nole's year but Murray did a lot better than him outside of slams and finished #1

 

[Moxie]

In 2008 Nadal dominated and there is no question about that. He was both YE #1 and player of the year in 2008.

Similarly, in 2009 Fed dominated and there is no question about that. He was both YE #1 and player of the year in 2009.

But, 2013 was not comparable to 2008 and 2009 where there is a consensus on who is the most dominant player.
Very rarely is the player of the year award given in an year to a different player other than the one who finished YE#1.
2013 is one such year; Rafa finished #1 and Novak won player of the year award. That itself is good enough to
show that there is not much consensus about that year.

I would not bother to talk about 2011, where contrary to your claim Nadal was not looming large at all by any means.

I've already said that 2013 was complicated. But you're the one that put up the blog post about levels of finishing meaning something, so I was just trying to support you. That's the thing that puts Fed lightyears ahead on the GOAT chart. Isn't that what you wanted? Either 2nd finishes matter to you, or they don't.

 

[DarthFed]

Yeah, definitely it's your opinion......

Yeah it is so outlandish to say that 3 MS wins and 1 YEC is better than 5 MS wins. But then you are a Nadal fan who probably thinks the YEC is a joke. Move along...

 

[Moxie]

I'd say that's even closer. Obviously I'd prefer Nole's year but Murray did a lot better than him outside of slams and finished #1

Last year was odd and hard to call for one player. If their relative fortunes had been more evenly distributed, I think everyone would give it to Novak. However, given how much he started dropping off the map mid-year, and how much Murray picked up the mantle, I'd give the edge to Murray.

 

[DarthFed]

^ I disagree but just an opinion (right Carol). Anytime a player wins more slams than the other I will prefer the year of the guy with more slams. Also of note is that Nole achieved the non calendar year slam in 2016. It's true that 1/2 of those GS wins occurred in 2015 but it is still a historic achievement that he accomplished in 2016.

 

[Moxie]

^ I disagree but just an opinion (right Carol). Anytime a player wins more slams than the other I will prefer the year of the guy with more slams. Also of note is that Nole achieved the non calendar year slam in 2016. It's true that 1/2 of those GS wins occurred in 2015 but it is still a historic achievement that he accomplished in 2016.

Good points, and that's another way of looking at it. Now I'm just being guilty of short-term memory at the end of the year. :lulz2:

 

[GameSetAndMath]

In the history of the "World Champion" award by ITF since its inception in 1978, only in four years, the award was given to a player other than who finished #1 in the ATP rankings chart.

1. In 1978, Jimmy Connors was YE #1, but Borg got the award (Borg won RG and W, Jimmy won USO).
2. In 1982, JMac was YE #1, but Jimmy got the award. (Jimmy won W & USO, JMac none).
3. In 1989, Lendl was YE #1, but Becker got the award. (Lendl won AO, Becker won W & USO)
4. In 2013, Rafa was YE #1, but Novak got the award. (Rafa won RG & USO and Novak won AO).

Except in 2013, even though the award was given to a different person, that person had won more slams in that year. So, it was quite unusual.

BTW, if I have to pick one player only, I would give 2013 to Rafa. But, the point is that it is not an universal consensus and the two were very close that year. So, it is certainly appropriate to include 2013 a part of Novak's dominant stretch.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

^ I disagree but just an opinion (right Carol). Anytime a player wins more slams than the other I will prefer the year of the guy with more slams. Also of note is that Nole achieved the non calendar year slam in 2016. It's true that 1/2 of those GS wins occurred in 2015 but it is still a historic achievement that he accomplished in 2016.

Interestingly, the "World Champion" award was given to Andy in 2016 by ITF even though Novak had won two slams. But, it was not considered much controversial due to Andy finishing YE #1 and also winning the Olympics, an ITF event.

 

[Carol]

Yeah it is so outlandish to say that 3 MS wins and 1 YEC is better than 5 MS wins. But then you are a Nadal fan who probably thinks the YEC is a joke. Move along...

I'm Nadal fan and I've never said that YEC is a joke but Rafael Nadal did dominate 2013 without any doubt it doesn't matter how much you try to insist again and again about something as clear as crystal like he was the 2008 Wimbledon brilliant winner with ALL THE HONORS AND CREDIT. Move along.....

 

[Moxie]

BTW, if I have to pick one player only, I would give 2013 to Rafa. But, the point is that it is not an universal consensus and the two were very close that year. So, it is certainly appropriate to include 2013 a part of Novak's dominant stretch.

Wait, aren't you now bastardizing your own theory? I thought you were arguing that there aren't always clean stretches? Even you agree that 2013 you'd give to Nadal. And except for the self-interested ITF, I believe there is universal consensus on 2013. Hell, even Darth gives 2013 to Nadal, so I should rest my case on that one. 2011-2016 is not an unbroken path of dominance by Djokovic, but I thought that was your argument.

 

[Moxie]

Interestingly, the "World Champion" award was given to Andy in 2016 by ITF even though Novak had won two slams. But, it was not considered much controversial due to Andy finishing YE #1 and also winning the Olympics, an ITF event.

I believe that was the one some of us considered Karma payback. Point being, that award prizes ITF events, and the calendar is mainly comprised of ATP ones.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Wait, aren't you now bastardizing your own theory? I thought you were arguing that there aren't always clean stretches? Even you agree that 2013 you'd give to Nadal. And except for the self-interested ITF, I believe there is universal consensus on 2013. Hell, even Darth gives 2013 to Nadal, so I should rest my case on that one. 2011-2016 is not an unbroken path of dominance by Djokovic, but I thought that was your argument.

No, I am not destabilizing my theory. Giving an year to a player does not necessarily conflict with including that year in another player's dominant stretch. That was the whole premise behind dominant stretch theory, that I am advocating. It is a long stretch in which a player was dominant most of the time and never irrelevant any time.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

I believe that was the one some of us considered Karma payback. Point being, that award prizes ITF events, and the calendar is mainly comprised of ATP ones.

You probably misread. In 2016 Andy was both YE#1 and World Champion Award winner.

 

[Moxie]

No, I am not destabilizing my theory. Giving an year to a player does not necessarily conflict with including that year in another player's dominant stretch. That was the whole premise behind dominant stretch theory, that I am advocating. It is a long stretch in which a player was dominant most of the time and never irrelevant any time.

Very concise. Thank you.

 

[DarthFed]

I'm Nadal fan and I've never said that YEC is a joke but Rafael Nadal did dominate 2013 without any doubt it doesn't matter how much you try to insist again and again about something as clear as crystal like he was the 2008 Wimbledon brilliant winner with ALL THE HONORS AND CREDIT. Move along.....

I already said he was clearly the best player that year. But GSM's point that Nole was also a dominant player that season is not without merit. And it was the part about 3 MS wins and 1 YEC being better than 5 MS wins that you took offense to. But then you are easily riled, kind of entertaining, you do make a good puppet at times.

 

[Carol]

^ I disagree but just an opinion (right Carol). Anytime a player wins more slams than the other I will prefer the year of the guy with more slams. Also of note is that Nole achieved the non calendar year slam in 2016. It's true that 1/2 of those GS wins occurred in 2015 but it is still a historic achievement that he accomplished in 2016.

Then pick at your mind, Nadal was the dominant in 2013 or not?

 

[Moxie]

You probably misread. In 2016 Andy was both YE#1 and World Champion Award winner.

I don't think I did. Novak had 2 Majors, but didn't get the ITF award, same way that Rafa didn't, with 2 Majors in 2013.