Andy Murray: The LOSER among the Winners

[Kieran]

nehmeth, a question for you (or anyone): If Andy had a better mental game, how many more Slams do you think he would have won? I can give him maybe 1 or 2 more, but probably not more than that. I just don't think he is as good as the other three.

I think Andy suffered two major stutter moments at the same time: the back op, and Lendl leaving. He hasn't been the same player since the operation. He never got back to that pre-op level (unless it was back to his pre-op and pre-Lendl level, which was similar to now), and Lendl leaving only exacerbated things for him.

How many more would he have won without any of this? impossible to say, but he'd be much less a whipping boy than he is right now...

 

[El Dude]

Of course it is impossible to tease out the mental aspect, because it is a major part of what makes a champion. Tennis history is filled with players who "should have" won more than they did, but didn't have the mental game. On physical talent alone, David Naldbandian and Marat Safin "should have" won at least five each. But in the end, they didn't.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Of course it is impossible to tease out the mental aspect, because it is a major part of what makes a champion. Tennis history is filled with players who "should have" won more than they did, but didn't have the mental game. On physical talent alone, David Naldbandian and Marat Safin "should have" won at least five each. But in the end, they didn't.

With all due respect to Nalby, not in the same league, not even close as far his distance from the very best. He has 1 major final and a few semis.

Safin, is in Murray's league but he was so unpredictable, and his work ethic was 1/10th of Murray.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Outcome Year Championship Surface Opponent Score
Runner-up 2008 US Open Hard Switzerland Roger Federer 2–6, 5–7, 2–6
Runner-up 2010 Australian Open Hard Switzerland Roger Federer 3–6, 4–6, 6–7(11–13)
Runner-up 2011 Australian Open (2) Hard Serbia Novak Djokovic 4–6, 2–6, 3–6
Runner-up 2012 Wimbledon Grass Switzerland Roger Federer 6–4, 5–7, 3–6, 4–6
Winner 2012 US Open Hard Serbia Novak Djokovic 7–6(12–10), 7–5, 2–6, 3–6, 6–2
Runner-up 2013 Australian Open (3) Hard Serbia Novak Djokovic 7–6(7–2), 6–7(3–7), 3–6, 2–6
Winner 2013 Wimbledon Grass Serbia Novak Djokovic 6–4, 7–5, 6–4
Runner-up 2015 Australian Open (4) Hard Serbia Novak Djokovic 6–7(5–7), 7–6(7–4), 3–6, 0–6
Runner-up 2016 Australian Open (5) Hard Serbia Novak Djokovic 1–6, 5–7, 6–7(3–7)

This is not including a bevy of miserable semi and early round losses.

 

[Kieran]

2 FO semi defeats aren't miserable. It's kinda OTT, the negative hyperbole about Andy. I definitely think his career has gone downwards just when it was going upwards, but he's a trier and a competitor, unlike Safin and Nalby and a bunch of other shams we've seen over the last twelve or so years. Andy is limited - but he's done a lot of significant things too. Immense pressure as a Brit trying to firstly reach a Wimbledon final, then win one.

He achieved these things.

He's #2 in the world. He has a bunch of victories against 3 of the greatest players to ever swing a stick. He's won titles at all levels. The last two seasons have seen his best seasons on clay. he can correct his trajectory, he's not gone so far in the wrong direction. I dunno if the negativity is caused by anger at him for not being better, but it isn't for the want of some effort on his part that he isn't...

 

[Luxilon Borg]

2 FO semi defeats aren't miserable. It's kinda OTT, the negative hyperbole about Andy. I definitely think his career has gone downwards just when it was going upwards, but he's a trier and a competitor, unlike Safin and Nalby and a bunch of other shams we've seen over the last twelve or so years. Andy is limited - but he's done a lot of significant things too. Immense pressure as a Brit trying to firstly reach a Wimbledon final, then win one.

He achieved these things.

He's #2 in the world. He has a bunch of victories against 3 of the greatest players to ever swing a stick. He's won titles at all levels. The last two seasons have seen his best seasons on clay. he can correct his trajectory, he's not gone so far in the wrong direction. I dunno if the negativity is caused by anger at him for not being better, but it isn't for the want of some effort on his part that he isn't...

Actually, if you note, my thread was specifically a riff on the fact that he is absolutely one of the Big 4, and has a significant amount of achievements. However. 2 slams vs. 11, 14, and 17 is the back of the pack. Not to mention historic melt downs, coach juggling, and other things. As I noted, he the red headed step child in an ultra elite group. Meaning, compared to the everyone else, he is an Alpha Dog,

 

[Great Hands]

nehmeth, a question for you (or anyone): If Andy had a better mental game, how many more Slams do you think he would have won? I can give him maybe 1 or 2 more, but probably not more than that. I just don't think he is as good as the other three.

I would say a minimum of 4 more.

o.k. I have to ask; which 4?

WD was won by prime Roger and Rafa between 2003-2010, and then by Novak having one of the greatest seasons ever. Andy was nto beating those guys in their prime, even if he was mentally stronger - they are just better players, and mentally strong too. If two players are both mentally strong, the one who is the better player technically/athletically will triumph, and that would be prime Roger/Rafa/Novak in all those instances. 2012 Murray played great. He won the first set and was toe to toe in the second when Roger produced some genuinely stunning shots, described by all comentators as genius, to take the second. I watched those rallies again recently and Andy did nothing wrong in them, he played aggressively and well. Roger then played fantastically well under the roof. The greatest player of all-time on grass, playing well, is going to beat Andy Murray, even if he's mentally strong. Andy is not as good as Federer playing well. Fact. 2013 - he won it. 2014 - he was not right physically coming back from the surgery. 2015 - Federer plays what many commentators regard as one of his best ever performances to beat Andy. Andy's first serve percentage was in the 70s in that match, and he wasn't just spinning it in, his first and second serves were both much faster than his average - Roger has his best ever serving performance, statistically speaking, in a big match, and Murray just couldn't break him. The greatest grass court player of all time playing on grass, having his greatest ever servign perforamcne, is not going to get beaten by a very good grass court player, but not anywhjere near the greatest, even if he's very metnally strong.

French O[pen - it was deominated by prime Rafa, with one win slipped in by Roger, between 2005-2014.you'er telling me Andy is beating prime Rafa on clay? NO way, and that's nothign to do with the mental side, rafa is just a better clay court player - he's just a better player.

Australiam Open - Murray did not become a grand slam contender until late 2008. 2009 - ao was won by prime rafa, 2010 - ao was won by prime roger, ao 2011 - was won by prime novak. even if Andy was very metnalyl strong, he's not beating these players who are also mentally strong, and superior natural athelets and that bit more talented overall. 2012 - Murray played fantsticaly well, played his heart out, in the sf and still lost it. And even if he'd won it, do you think he would have been able to repeat the performance to beat a prime RAfa? No, no matter how mentally strong he was. Murray's losses to NOvak in teh fianls there - 2013, 2015, 2016 may have been exacerbated by his mentality, but the fact remains that Novak is just a btter player on that surface, and is a bad match up for Andy at the AO. No amount of positive attitude is going to change that. 2014 Murray was not fullt physically recorvered from the back surgery, so he' wasn't winning it that year either, whic is a hsame becuase that might have been his chance, with Stan beating Novak in the QFs.

USO - 2008 andy played the greatest player ever in his prime. Adny is not the greatest player ever, so he wasn't winning that one, even with a better mentality. 2009 he would had to beat at least two of orger , rafa and an amazing delpo back to back. Again, mentality would not have allowed him to do that. 2010 - prime rafa won, 2011 - prime novak. 2012 - he won it. 2013 - he had major back probelms during the tounra,net, so much so he had surgery soon afterwards. 2014 he had still not recorved form teh surgery. 2015 - even if he'd beaten Anderson, he'd have to ahve beaten Stan, a hugely in-form Roger, and then an unstoppable Novak back to back.

Please tell me where in all this you think Andy with an improved mentality coudl ahve at least four more lsma, because i jsut cannot see it.

to calrify, ia sking you to be specifc about which slams, not just say vaguely 'at least 4 more slams'

 

[Great Hands]

nehmeth, a question for you (or anyone): If Andy had a better mental game, how many more Slams do you think he would have won? I can give him maybe 1 or 2 more, but probably not more than that. I just don't think he is as good as the other three.

I would say a minimum of 4 more.

o.k. I have to ask; which 4?

WD was won by prime Roger and Rafa between 2003-2010, and then by Novak having one of the greatest seasons ever. Andy was nto beating those guys in their prime, even if he was mentally stronger - they are just better players, and mentally strong too. If two players are both mentally strong, the one who is the better player technically/athletically will triumph, and that would be prime Roger/Rafa/Novak in all those instances. 2012 Murray played great. He won the first set and was toe to toe in the second when Roger produced some genuinely stunning shots, described by all comentators as genius, to take the second. I watched those rallies again recently and Andy did nothing wrong in them, he played aggressively and well. Roger then played fantastically well under the roof. The greatest player of all-time on grass, playing well, is going to beat Andy Murray, even if he's mentally strong. Andy is not as good as Federer playing well. Fact. 2013 - he won it. 2014 - he was not right physically coming back from the surgery. 2015 - Federer plays what many commentators regard as one of his best ever performances to beat Andy. Andy's first serve percentage was in the 70s in that match, and he wasn't just spinning it in, his first and second serves were both much faster than his average - Roger has his best ever serving performance, statistically speaking, in a big match, and Murray just couldn't break him. The greatest grass court player of all time playing on grass, having his greatest ever servign perforamcne, is not going to get beaten by a very good grass court player, but not anywhjere near the greatest, even if he's very metnally strong.

French O[pen - it was deominated by prime Rafa, with one win slipped in by Roger, between 2005-2014.you'er telling me Andy is beating prime Rafa on clay? NO way, and that's nothign to do with the mental side, rafa is just a better clay court player - he's just a better player.

Australiam Open - Murray did not become a grand slam contender until late 2008. 2009 - ao was won by prime rafa, 2010 - ao was won by prime roger, ao 2011 - was won by prime novak. even if Andy was very metnalyl strong, he's not beating these players who are also mentally strong, and superior natural athelets and that bit more talented overall. 2012 - Murray played fantsticaly well, played his heart out, in the sf and still lost it. And even if he'd won it, do you think he would have been able to repeat the performance in teh fianl to beat a prime RAfa? No, no matter how mentally strong he was. Murray's losses to NOvak in teh fianls there - 2013, 2015, 2016 may have been exacerbated by his mentality, but the fact remains that Novak is just a btter player on that surface, and is a bad match up for Andy at the AO. No amount of positive attitude is going to change that. 2014 Murray was not fullt physically recorvered from the back surgery, so he' wasn't winning it that year either, whic is a hsame becuase that might have been his chance, with Stan beating Novak in the QFs.

USO - 2008 andy played the greatest player ever in his prime. Adny is not the greatest player ever, so he wasn't winning that one, even with a better mentality. 2009 he would had to beat at least two of orger , rafa and an amazing delpo back to back. Again, mentality would not have allowed him to do that. 2010 - prime rafa won, 2011 - prime novak. 2012 - he won it. 2013 - he had major back probelms during the tounra,net, so much so he had surgery soon afterwards. 2014 he had still not recorved form teh surgery. 2015 - even if he'd beaten Anderson, he'd have to ahve beaten Stan, a hugely in-form Roger, and then an unstoppable Novak back to back.

Please tell me where in all this you think Andy with an improved mentality coudl ahve at least four more lsma, because i jsut cannot see it.

to calrify, im asking you to be specifc about which slams, not just say vaguely 'at least 4 more slams'

 

[Great Hands]

nehmeth, a question for you (or anyone): If Andy had a better mental game, how many more Slams do you think he would have won? I can give him maybe 1 or 2 more, but probably not more than that. I just don't think he is as good as the other three.

I would say a minimum of 4 more.

o.k. I have to ask; which 4?

WD was won by prime Roger and Rafa between 2003-2010, and then by Novak having one of the greatest seasons ever. Andy was nto beating those guys in their prime, even if he was mentally stronger - they are just better players, and mentally strong too. If two players are both mentally strong, the one who is the better player technically/athletically will triumph, and that would be prime Roger/Rafa/Novak in all those instances. 2012 Murray played great. He won the first set and was toe to toe in the second when Roger produced some genuinely stunning shots, described by all comentators as genius, to take the second. I watched those rallies again recently and Andy did nothing wrong in them, he played aggressively and well. Roger then played fantastically well under the roof. The greatest player of all-time on grass, playing well, is going to beat Andy Murray, even if he's mentally strong. Andy is not as good as Federer playing well. Fact. 2013 - he won it. 2014 - he was not right physically coming back from the surgery. 2015 - Federer plays what many commentators regard as one of his best ever performances to beat Andy. Andy's first serve percentage was in the 70s in that match, and he wasn't just spinning it in, his first and second serves were both much faster than his average - Roger has his best ever serving performance, statistically speaking, in a big match, and Murray just couldn't break him. The greatest grass court player of all time playing on grass, having his greatest ever servign perforamcne, is not going to get beaten by a very good grass court player, but not anywhjere near the greatest, even if he's very metnally strong.

French O[pen - it was deominated by prime Rafa, with one win slipped in by Roger, between 2005-2014.you'er telling me Andy is beating prime Rafa on clay? NO way, and that's nothign to do with the mental side, rafa is just a better clay court player - he's just a better player.

Australiam Open - Murray did not become a grand slam contender until late 2008. 2009 - ao was won by prime rafa, 2010 - ao was won by prime roger, ao 2011 - was won by prime novak. even if Andy was very metnalyl strong, he's not beating these players who are also mentally strong, and superior natural athelets and that bit more talented overall. 2012 - Murray played fantsticaly well, played his heart out, in the sf and still lost it. And even if he'd won it, do you think he would have been able to repeat the performance in teh fianl to beat a prime RAfa? No, no matter how mentally strong he was. Murray's losses to NOvak in teh fianls there - 2013, 2015, 2016 may have been exacerbated by his mentality, but the fact remains that Novak is just a btter player on that surface, and is a bad match up for Andy at the AO. No amount of positive attitude is going to change that. 2014 Murray was not fullt physically recorvered from the back surgery, so he' wasn't winning it that year either, whic is a hsame becuase that might have been his chance, with Stan beating Novak in the QFs.

USO - 2008 andy played the greatest player ever in his prime. Adny is not the greatest player ever, so he wasn't winning that one, even with a better mentality. 2009 he would had to beat at least two of orger , rafa and an amazing delpo back to back. Again, mentality would not have allowed him to do that. 2010 - prime rafa won, 2011 - prime novak. 2012 - he won it. 2013 - he had major back probelms during the tounra,net, so much so he had surgery soon afterwards. 2014 he had still not recorved form teh surgery. 2015 - even if he'd beaten Anderson, he'd have to ahve beaten Stan, a hugely in-form Roger, and then an unstoppable Novak back to back.

Please tell me where in all this you think Andy with an improved mentality coudl ahve at least four more lsma, because i jsut cannot see it.

to calrify, im asking you to be specifc about which slams, not just say vaguely 'at least 4 more slams'