23 forehand winners to 3 forehand winners: whose forehand is better?

[Front242]

We'll agree to disagree then. No problem

Meaning that you'll make a statement apropos of nothing on the thread, really, and when I show you evidence against, you just prefer to believe your statement, anyway. I guess that means you're actually conceding. :laydownlaughing

LOL, I'm not conceding anything. Bar the 2007 SF at the USO his slam results and results in general were nothing compared to what they were from 2011 onwards. His main weapon is his speed and fitness and his best results have been because of those traits imo which began circa 2011.

 

[Moxie]

We'll agree to disagree then. No problem

Meaning that you'll make a statement apropos of nothing on the thread, really, and when I show you evidence against, you just prefer to believe your statement, anyway. I guess that means you're actually conceding. :laydownlaughing

LOL, I'm not conceding anything. Bar the 2007 SF at the USO his slam results and results in general were nothing compared to what they were from 2011 onwards. His main weapon is his speed and fitness and his best results have been because of those traits imo which began circa 2011.

You forgot his YEC final against Federer in 2007, then, age 25. Which year, as you point out, he also reached the SF of the USO. And became #5 in the world. He won 9 titles before 2011, and has won 15 since. This is consistent with the later maturation of 2nd tier players. Ask El Dude. Wawrinka won 4 titles before age 29, and has won 8 since.

Ferrer's results are not dissimilar to his pre-2011 results, only more consistent. He hasn't won a Major, though he finally did make one final. He hasn't won the YEC, though he has played in it, never making the final again. When he fell out of the #5, but regained it again, that is pretty much where he wandered around for the last few years. The results speak to consistency gained by maturity, experience and confidence. I think you can agree on that. Same as Wawrinka, who has had better Major results, even with fewer actual titles. Bigger game, but similar career trajectories.

That being said, you claim that there is a change it Ferrer's speed and fitness. Surely, players can work on fitness. But I'm not sure how you're measuring his speed, or even his fitness change. What is your measure?

 

[Front242]

My measure is my eyes and google to re-review his results. And nope, didn't forget his YEC final, I just don't count winning 7 games as either (a) impressive or (b) backing up my claim regarding his fitness.

 

[Moxie]

My measure is my eyes and google to re-review his results. And nope, didn't forget his YEC final, I just don't count winning 7 games as either (a) impressive or (b) backing up my claim regarding his fitness.

Your eyes don't really count, if that's all you've got. And as to google, you really haven't made use of it towards your argument. It's not really a question of if you are impressed with his 7 games win at the YEC that year. That point was about his results, pre-age 29, as per your argument. That was his best result at the YEC, and you're trying to claim that his results pre-2011 were just mediocre, which they weren't. That particular point was not about his fitness. The fitness is another question, and you have yet to make a cogent argument that he was less-fit pre-2011.

You have made two separate arguments. One is fitness, the other is results. Don't confuse them. But I'm still challenging you to defend them.

 

[Front242]

My measure is my eyes and google to re-review his results. And nope, didn't forget his YEC final, I just don't count winning 7 games as either (a) impressive or (b) backing up my claim regarding his fitness.

Your eyes don't really count, if that's all you've got. And as to google, you really haven't made use of it towards your argument. It's not really a question of if you are impressed with his 7 games win at the YEC that year. That point was about his results, pre-age 29, as per your argument. That was his best result at the YEC, and you're trying to claim that his results pre-2011 were just mediocre, which they weren't. That particular point was not about his fitness. The fitness is another question, and you have yet to make a cogent argument that he was less-fit pre-2011.

You have made two separate arguments. One is fitness, the other is results. Don't confuse them. But I'm still challenging you to defend them.

It was you who started this here http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=4030&pid=192806#pid192806

You were debating with cali about stamina and referenced Ferrer. Stamina is his main asset as far as I'm concerned. Referencing your post above, obviously Nadal's prime forehand was a weapon and Ferrer has few weapons most of the time unless it's a rare performance where he's hitting loads of lines which he does from time to time. I said his results were nothing like they have been since 2011 and they weren't. Also, it's my eyes versus yours so I don't see why yours count anymore than mine. The guy barely ever gets tired, my eyes see that and that's enough for me.

 

[Moxie]

My measure is my eyes and google to re-review his results. And nope, didn't forget his YEC final, I just don't count winning 7 games as either (a) impressive or (b) backing up my claim regarding his fitness.

Your eyes don't really count, if that's all you've got. And as to google, you really haven't made use of it towards your argument. It's not really a question of if you are impressed with his 7 games win at the YEC that year. That point was about his results, pre-age 29, as per your argument. That was his best result at the YEC, and you're trying to claim that his results pre-2011 were just mediocre, which they weren't. That particular point was not about his fitness. The fitness is another question, and you have yet to make a cogent argument that he was less-fit pre-2011.

You have made two separate arguments. One is fitness, the other is results. Don't confuse them. But I'm still challenging you to defend them.

It was you who started this here http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=4030&pid=192806#pid192806

You were debating with cali about stamina and referenced Ferrer. Stamina is his main asset as far as I'm concerned. Referencing your post above, obviously Nadal's prime forehand was a weapon and Ferrer has few weapons most of the time unless it's a rare performance where he's hitting loads of lines which he does from time to time. I said his results were nothing like they have been since 2011 and they weren't. Also, it's my eyes versus yours so I don't see why yours count anymore than mine. The guy barely ever gets tired, my eyes see that and that's enough for me.

Well, no, I didn't start the "stamina" conversation on this thread, Cali did. I brought in Ferrer as a counter to Cali's argument as to why Nadal has 14 Majors, being that it can't be on stamina alone, or Ferrer would have done better. It was a counter-example.

I'm not sure if you mean that stamina is a main asset for Ferrer or Nadal, or both.

This from you: "I said his results were nothing like they have been since 2011 and they weren't. Also, it's my eyes versus yours so I don't see why yours count anymore than mine. The guy barely ever gets tired, my eyes see that and that's enough for me." No, it's not my eyes v. yours. I gave you an example that predates 2011 of Ferrer pulling off a he-man performance of stamina and grit. You have provided no examples that he wasn't that player prior to 2011. As I pointed out, he'd won 9 titles. Who's to say how much stamina went into that, though the majority of those were on clay, so one has to think rather a lot. If you're going to insist that he has become faster, and has more stamina than he had prior to 2011, you really have to come up with some proof of that. I've done a decent job of countering you, I think you'd agree. You, however, keep insisting on what you think you remember or feel. That's not really an argument. I'm sure you can do better than that.

 

[Front242]

No, you think you've done a good job countering it, but that's debatable. And easily too. He really only started challenging the big four since 2011 on the big stage and why'd you think that was? I'd say being physically able to hang with them, so hence stamina. And again, my eyes show me that. He still doesn't beat them often but challenges them much more since 2011 when his fitness became much better and he visibly shows practically no signs of fatigue.

 

[Moxie]

No, you think you've done a good job countering it, but that's debatable. And easily too. He really only started challenging the big four since 2011 on the big stage and why'd you think that was? I'd say being physically able to hang with them, so hence stamina. And again, my eyes show me that. He still doesn't beat them often but challenges them much more since 2011 when his fitness became much better and he visibly shows practically no signs of fatigue.

He hasn't actually done a great job of challenging the Big 4 since 2011, if that's your measure. He's 0-16 against Roger; he's 5-15 v. Djokovic, with one win in 2011 at the WTF, and all the rest coming in 09, and 07. He's 6-23 v. Nadal, though he did have 2 clay wins over Nadal in the last two years, but we all seem to agree that's about Nadal's level, since even Almagro beat him in that period; and he's 6-10 v. Andy Murray, with only 2 wins coming since 2011. In total, he has 6 wins over the big 4 from 2011, compared to 11 prior to 2011. He has 17 totals wins against them. I keep giving you hard evidence on this, and you keep telling me what you "feel" is right, or what you care to remember. There was clearly a time when Ferrer fell down in the rankings. But tell me how that was ever about a big change in his fitness or stamina. I think it was about his maturity. Once he came up again, not much has changed about his level. Except his maturity and commitment. He's not faster or more energetic than he was as a cub. But he serves smarter than he used to, and he holds his head better than most. That's maturity, and it benefits him.

 

[kskate2]

That's enough. Get back on topic please.

 

[Moxie]

That's enough. Get back on topic please.

Do you really want to be that school marm? Why, because the topic of Nadal's v. Federer's forehand is about to get resolved? We're not interrupting any other conversation. Is it a problem if we continue this debate?

 

[kskate2]

That's enough. Get back on topic please.

Do you really want to be that school marm? Why, because the topic of Nadal's v. Federer's forehand is about to get resolved? We're not interrupting any other conversation. Is it a problem if we continue this debate?

YES

 

[Moxie]

That's enough. Get back on topic please.

Do you really want to be that school marm? Why, because the topic of Nadal's v. Federer's forehand is about to get resolved? We're not interrupting any other conversation. Is it a problem if we continue this debate?

YES

Why?

 

[kskate2]

Ferrer is off-topic. If you want to continue that vein take it to another thread.

 

[Moxie]

Ferrer is off-topic. If you want to continue that vein take it to another thread.

There is not other thread for this, and there is no other conversation on this topic. Front and I are having a reasonable debate. I don't see the harm. If someone wants to jump back in on the Fed-Nadal forehand debate, I promise I would abdicate. Fair?

 

[kskate2]

No Moxie, that's not how this works. If you want to continue that discussion you can start a new thread, but it will not continue in this one. This thing is already 2 pages in the wind.

 

[Moxie]

No Moxie, that's not how this works. If you want to continue that discussion you can start a new thread, but it will not continue in this one. This thing is already 2 pages in the wind.

Fair enough. Perhaps people still want to argue about the Nadal v. Federer forehand. It's not like the Fedal conversation gets old. Too bad to stop an active conversation, though, just out of a sense of tidy housekeeping.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Ferrer's increased stamina only came about when he turned 29. He was never a Duracell bunny before that and his results weren't great before that either.

Whaaaaat?

Ferrer was always a physical player with endless energy. This is absurd.

 

[BalaryKar]

How many of those 23 forehands appeared in the first two sets of today's match? #justasking

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

Ferrer's increased stamina only came about when he turned 29. He was never a Duracell bunny before that and his results weren't great before that either.

Whaaaaat?

Ferrer was always a physical player with endless energy. This is absurd.

just to be sure, i did the google search to see if anyone was praising his stamina before 2010. the "Duracell Bunny" moniker didn't appear until later, yes. but there were articles praising his "tireless legs" in 2007, describing him and Hewitt as "fierce, relentless baseliners who will swing away until the sun goes down" and saying that he is "clearly built to go the distance" in 2008, as well as threads from the same year ranking him in the top 5 of the fittest players on tour.

so yeah, no clue what Front is on about.



*also, sorry for furthering the off-topic - i'd just taken a little lunch break to go through the past days' posts and this sparked my interest.