2015 Masters Series 1000 Miami Final: Djokovic v. Murray

[Riotbeard]

I would agree with you. The question is whether a different coach would have him beating his biggest rivals right now. I'm not sure. I still think that today he was closer to getting the win than he has been since Wimbledon 2013 regardless of the third set bagel.

This is how I feel. I think if everybody were as good a coach as Lendl, we would have more slam winners. It really is up to Andy to put it back together now, and there are some positive signs.

:blush:
Becker coming on board with Novak did not make me happy. The results were not immediately forthcoming and I was ready for him to go after Novak lost to the other Swiss fellow in Oz. A year (and two slams) later, I've seen Novak's net game improve exponentially... and it makes my heart pretty happy with the way he approaches the net - more like Ralf or Roger now, instead of Roddick.

Maybe Amelie can get Andy there... but he's not getting any younger and really doesn't have a two year window to wait and see.

I also think Andy needed more out of a coach than Novak. Becker helped Novak definitely, but Novak 6 slams when he came on board already. He didn't need a dramatic jump, which Andy really did (at least mentally). Andy and Novak's situations are pretty different.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

I couldnt watch todays final..*gloom* but today I have had 2 surprises..the first was checking r Madrid v cordoba (?or whoever) score after around 30mins 1-0 (g bale 28) then checking the final score which was 9-1 (c Ronaldo 30,36,38,54,89). yikes.

the second surprise was after heroically taking 2nd set 6-4..murray was destroyed 0-6 in the 3rd..although thinking back again andy lost 6-0 set in ao final. but still..0-6 in the 3rd ?. lolwut ?.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

All guys are talking about coaching. However, coaching is not the issue for Andy today.
It is training and physical ability. Tennis wise, Andy clearly proved he can hange with
Novak for a couple of hours at least. In the third set, Andy could not deliver anything
and he himself openly acknowledged that his legs are tired and he could not do anything.
So, if somebody has to be blamed it should be the trainer and/or fitness coach of Andy
and not the tennis coach.

But Andy's melt down in the final set is bad today considering the following aspects.

1. This is just a best of three match. If he can't hang with Novak until the end in
a best of 3 match, how does he expect to hang with the top guys in Slams.

2. Andy and Novak are born a week apart. So, we cannot even attribute the
running out of gas to age differential.

3. Miami is supposed to be second home to Andy. Andy himself was talking it
up before the match. So, he should be more accustomed to the conditions
and playing in 80 degree weather. (Actually, at AO last year folks were
playing when the temp was much higher).

4. Let us not bring the back surgery into the picture. It was done almost two
years ago. It was a minor and elective surgery as per the doctors.

However, Andy's results this year are good and he is #2 in the race at this time.
So, he can take some positives.

May be he should first fire his trainer/physio and hire a new guy in that department.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

yes we cannot play the back surgery card. but his legs were heavy in set three.

maybe he is just past his best for good..maybe pushing djokovic into a 3rd set of a final is as good as he can get from now on.

 

[Moxie]

I thought the point of mentioning back surgery was just to say that he was doing better than last year, when he was recovering from it. Anyway, GSM made a good point about Andy perhaps needing a better physical trainer, if he was going to get so gassed in a 3rd set. But Billie is right: Novak is a better player than Andy, even on a day when he wasn't playing his A game at all moments.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

I thought the point of mentioning back surgery was just to say that he was doing better than last year, when he was recovering from it. Anyway, GSM made a good point about Andy perhaps needing a better physical trainer, if he was going to get so gassed in a 3rd set. But Billie is right: Novak is a better player than Andy, even on a day when he wasn't playing his A game at all moments.

Muuray's physical fatigue is a manifestation of his mental demons...self doubt, self loathing, and his negative body language. I guarantee it.

 

[Moxie]

I thought the point of mentioning back surgery was just to say that he was doing better than last year, when he was recovering from it. Anyway, GSM made a good point about Andy perhaps needing a better physical trainer, if he was going to get so gassed in a 3rd set. But Billie is right: Novak is a better player than Andy, even on a day when he wasn't playing his A game at all moments.

Muuray's physical fatigue is a manifestation of his mental demons...self doubt, self loathing, and his negative body language. I guarantee it.

That's a fairly assured opinion. Presumably you see Murray on the couch, Dr. LB.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

I thought the point of mentioning back surgery was just to say that he was doing better than last year, when he was recovering from it. Anyway, GSM made a good point about Andy perhaps needing a better physical trainer, if he was going to get so gassed in a 3rd set. But Billie is right: Novak is a better player than Andy, even on a day when he wasn't playing his A game at all moments.

Muuray's physical fatigue is a manifestation of his mental demons...self doubt, self loathing, and his negative body language. I guarantee it.

That's a fairly assured opinion. Presumably you see Murray on the couch, Dr. LB.

Haha...yes, and I get paid well.

 

[TsarMatt]

Murray's hilarious tweet after the match:

Congrats to Novak on a great start to the year.. However this egg today wasn't appreciated on easter

https://twitter.com/andy_murray

 

[Carol]

It wasn't a good final, it was one of the worse played that I remember and of course that third set.....no words.....
Novak should to thanks to the tennis gods for the easy time he is going through.
Federer and his age, Nadal and his injury/surgery and his poor perfomance due to his lack of confidence when he came back, Delpo and his surgeries, Muzz and his "head" unable to play well and to lift a match when the things become a little difficult .
And if we talk about his opponents in this tournament, Dolgopolov and his cramps, otherwise who knows how the result would have been and Isner who was playing pretty well before, his serve wasn't so good and making too many unforced erros.
In one word, Novak is taking a good advance of all of it, he doesn't need to play his best (he is not) because everything is on his side but how long it's going to last? we'll see but it won't depend of him but the others

 

[Riotbeard]

It wasn't a good final, it was one of the worse played that I remember and of course that third set.....no words.....
Novak should to thanks to the tennis gods for the easy time he is going through.
Federer and his age, Nadal and his injury/surgery and his poor perfomance due to his lack of confidence when he came back, Delpo and his surgeries, Muzz and his "head" unable to play well and to lift a match when the things become a little difficult .
And if we talk about his opponents in this tournament, Dolgopolov and his cramps, otherwise who knows how the result would have been and Isner who was playing pretty well before, his serve wasn't so good and making too many unforced erros.
In one word, Novak is taking a good advance of all of it, he doesn't need to play his best (he is not) because everything is on his side but how long it's going to last? we'll see but it won't depend of him but the others

That is ridiculous and a bit harsh. Yesterday wasn't Novak's best, but he has put up plenty of high level performances in the last year. He raises his game to the level he needs more often than not. It's not his fault other people are falling apart. Also to extrapolate a season narrative from one tournament is unfair. Novak didn't even need this win, so after winning the AO and Indian Wells, the more important and impressive thing is he won without playing his best. All of the big 3 have done that.

 

[Federberg]

It wasn't a good final, it was one of the worse played that I remember and of course that third set.....no words.....
Novak should to thanks to the tennis gods for the easy time he is going through.
Federer and his age, Nadal and his injury/surgery and his poor perfomance due to his lack of confidence when he came back, Delpo and his surgeries, Muzz and his "head" unable to play well and to lift a match when the things become a little difficult .
And if we talk about his opponents in this tournament, Dolgopolov and his cramps, otherwise who knows how the result would have been and Isner who was playing pretty well before, his serve wasn't so good and making too many unforced erros.
In one word, Novak is taking a good advance of all of it, he doesn't need to play his best (he is not) because everything is on his side but how long it's going to last? we'll see but it won't depend of him but the others

That is ridiculous and a bit harsh. Yesterday wasn't Novak's best, but he has put up plenty of high level performances in the last year. He raises his game to the level he needs more often than not. It's not his fault other people are falling apart. Also to extrapolate a season narrative from one tournament is unfair. Novak didn't even need this win, so after winning the AO and Indian Wells, the more important and impressive thing is he won without playing his best. All of the big 3 have done that.

I wouldn't bother Riot.. this is the same nonsense we heard when Federer was in his pomp. It's easier for people to claim the opposition is weak than to acknowledge the greatness of the dominant player. Nothing ever changes

 

[Carol]

It wasn't a good final, it was one of the worse played that I remember and of course that third set.....no words.....
Novak should to thanks to the tennis gods for the easy time he is going through.
Federer and his age, Nadal and his injury/surgery and his poor perfomance due to his lack of confidence when he came back, Delpo and his surgeries, Muzz and his "head" unable to play well and to lift a match when the things become a little difficult .
And if we talk about his opponents in this tournament, Dolgopolov and his cramps, otherwise who knows how the result would have been and Isner who was playing pretty well before, his serve wasn't so good and making too many unforced erros.
In one word, Novak is taking a good advance of all of it, he doesn't need to play his best (he is not) because everything is on his side but how long it's going to last? we'll see but it won't depend of him but the others

That is ridiculous and a bit harsh. Yesterday wasn't Novak's best, but he has put up plenty of high level
performances in the last year. He raises his game to the level he needs more often than not. It's not his fault other people are falling apart. Also to extrapolate a season narrative from one tournament is unfair. Novak didn't even need this win, so after winning the AO and Indian Wells, the more important and impressive thing is he won without playing his best. All of the big 3 have done that.

Don't you think it was more ridiculous the Murray third set perfomance?

 

[TennisFanatic7]

I thought the point of mentioning back surgery was just to say that he was doing better than last year, when he was recovering from it. Anyway, GSM made a good point about Andy perhaps needing a better physical trainer, if he was going to get so gassed in a 3rd set. But Billie is right: Novak is a better player than Andy, even on a day when he wasn't playing his A game at all moments.

Muuray's physical fatigue is a manifestation of his mental demons...self doubt, self loathing, and his negative body language. I guarantee it.

I am fairly inclined to believe in this to be honest. Andy Murray is extremely physically fit and even last year when he had an excuse not to be at his best level of fitness, he battled through plenty of very long, tough matches. I'm thinking Kohlschreiber and Monfils at Roland Garros, for example.

He beats himself up too much and makes too much of a battle of holding serve so perhaps against Djokovic he does tire himself out.

To be honest, though, the main reason he got bagelled yesterday was because the set was lost at 3-0, and Nole had to work extremely hard to get each of those breaks, and his own service game went to deuce in between them. It's not like Murray was dead on his feet and couldn't win a point. After that, Andy probably had it in him to battle his ass off to lose the set 6-2 or 6-3 but it doesn't change the name getting carved into the trophy.

 

[Carol]

By the way, Novak did need to win, otherwise he would have lost a bunch of points and now he can start the clay season a little more relax due to the distance of his points over the other players. He doesn't want to give anything to anyone and I don't blame him

 

[Riotbeard]

It wasn't a good final, it was one of the worse played that I remember and of course that third set.....no words.....
Novak should to thanks to the tennis gods for the easy time he is going through.
Federer and his age, Nadal and his injury/surgery and his poor perfomance due to his lack of confidence when he came back, Delpo and his surgeries, Muzz and his "head" unable to play well and to lift a match when the things become a little difficult .
And if we talk about his opponents in this tournament, Dolgopolov and his cramps, otherwise who knows how the result would have been and Isner who was playing pretty well before, his serve wasn't so good and making too many unforced erros.
In one word, Novak is taking a good advance of all of it, he doesn't need to play his best (he is not) because everything is on his side but how long it's going to last? we'll see but it won't depend of him but the others

That is ridiculous and a bit harsh. Yesterday wasn't Novak's best, but he has put up plenty of high level
performances in the last year. He raises his game to the level he needs more often than not. It's not his fault other people are falling apart. Also to extrapolate a season narrative from one tournament is unfair. Novak didn't even need this win, so after winning the AO and Indian Wells, the more important and impressive thing is he won without playing his best. All of the big 3 have done that.

Don't you think it was more ridiculous the Murray third set perfomance?

Equal?

 

[Luxilon Borg]

I thought the point of mentioning back surgery was just to say that he was doing better than last year, when he was recovering from it. Anyway, GSM made a good point about Andy perhaps needing a better physical trainer, if he was going to get so gassed in a 3rd set. But Billie is right: Novak is a better player than Andy, even on a day when he wasn't playing his A game at all moments.

Muuray's physical fatigue is a manifestation of his mental demons...self doubt, self loathing, and his negative body language. I guarantee it.

I am fairly inclined to believe in this to be honest. Andy Murray is extremely physically fit and even last year when he had an excuse not to be at his best level of fitness, he battled through plenty of very long, tough matches. I'm thinking Kohlschreiber and Monfils at Roland Garros, for example.

He beats himself up too much and makes too much of a battle of holding serve so perhaps against Djokovic he does tire himself out.

To be honest, though, the main reason he got bagelled yesterday was because the set was lost at 3-0, and Nole had to work extremely hard to get each of those breaks, and his own service game went to deuce in between them. It's not like Murray was dead on his feet and couldn't win a point. After that, Andy probably had it in him to battle his ass off to lose the set 6-2 or 6-3 but it doesn't change the name getting carved into the trophy.

Good post, but I can tell you for sure when you see your opponent having a non stop dialogue with their camp, shaking their heads, and doubled over, you pretty much know you have broken them..first, mentally, then physically.

 

[Carol]

That is ridiculous and a bit harsh. Yesterday wasn't Novak's best, but he has put up plenty of high level
performances in the last year. He raises his game to the level he needs more often than not. It's not his fault other people are falling apart. Also to extrapolate a season narrative from one tournament is unfair. Novak didn't even need this win, so after winning the AO and Indian Wells, the more important and impressive thing is he won without playing his best. All of the big 3 have done that.

Don't you think it was more ridiculous the Murray third set perfomance?

Equal?

I don't think so, I try to say what I see at the present and I'm not the only one thinking that way, yesterday I was talking with a friends and good tennis followers, they have been in almost every single match (at least the most interesting ones) and they were agree with me, even one of them started the conversation about it and I told him "that's exactly what I see now"
I don't pretend that you are agree too but to say it's ridiculous it sounds a bit rash too :dodgy:

 

[Carol]

Don't you think it was more ridiculous the Murray third set perfomance?

Equal?

I don't think so, I try to say what I see at the present and I'm not the only one thinking that way, yesterday I was talking with a friends and good tennis followers, they have been in almost every single match (at least the most interesting ones) and they were agree with me, even one of them started the conversation about it and I told him "that's exactly what I see now"
I don't pretend that you are agree too but to say it's ridiculous it sounds a bit rash too :dodgy:

I meant a bit harsh

 

[Riotbeard]

Don't you think it was more ridiculous the Murray third set perfomance?

Equal?

I don't think so, I try to say what I see at the present and I'm not the only one thinking that way, yesterday I was talking with a friends and good tennis followers, they have been in almost every single match (at least the most interesting ones) and they were agree with me, even one of them started the conversation about it and I told him "that's exactly what I see now"
I don't pretend that you are agree too but to say it's ridiculous it sounds a bit rash too :dodgy:

I was only calling ridiculous the notion that Novak is somehow overall diminished because when he won the third out of the three big tournaments so far, he only had to play mediocre against an even worse playing Murray. Murray shouldn't have so completely choked at the end, but your larger argument about Novak is unfounded which was my point.