tenisplayrla08 said:The GOAT conversation is a fruitless one for the most part. But the era differences are just too great. Navratilova and Evert were just the best out there. Serena is the best out there but, the racquets have changed. Steffi "only" won 107 titles which shows that the amount of tournaments around to play and the amount of tournaments needed to play to make a decent living or better was already going down. If Serena gets anywhere near 80 titles, I'll consider that right up there with those girls. Yes, 167 and 157 is just gargantuan. But the racquets being the way they were, the girls who were not as good just didn't have as much leverage. Serena can be upset by someone playing extremely strong because they have a racquet that can hit it past her. And she does the same thing obviously. She and Venus made it that way more than ever before.
I love Steffi and I don't fault her for very little doubles play at all. But.... for me, and I'll always catch at least some flack for this, but there is an asterisk over her career. And it's name is Monica Seles. I have a hard time believing Steffi gets to 22 if Seles doesn't get stabbed. Seles did and so Steffi was definitely the best around still after that and deserved her 4 to 6 titles she won after the stabbing. She won 11 slams, after Seles' stabbing. She may have made it to 18. But she wouldn't have gotten to 22. I don't know. There's nothing I can do about it and I don't want to take away from her because she was amazing and dominant. But it has always bothered me and it always will. Seles had a new game and that rivalry deserved a lot more. Hate it. I mean, the Seles stabbing has implications on the late 90s overall. I don't think Hingis has near the success she had if Seles is never stabbed. Serena and Venus' early years could have been somewhat different. And Seles herself would probably be part of the GOAT talk in my opinion.
Anyways, all these ladies are just amazing. I'm glad Serena has passed Martina and Chrissy because that's the only way she can compete with them up here. She's got Chrissy in the doubles category. So that helps her there. But against Martina, who was only stopped at 18 because of Chrissy and then Steffi's dominant game. And well, the same goes for Chrissy. If Martina doesn't exist she'd have beaten Court's record by 5 or 10. They were just so much better than everyone else. So many grand slam finals and semis. It's insane. Serena had many foes. All of whom she was and is better than but who can beat her a bit more because they've got similar power and a strong racquet. Just so much more depth these days. Even though it would be wrong to say that Chrissy and Martina didn't have to deal with Goolagong Cawley and Casals and Shriver and Austin and Wade and Barker and Mandlikova and more.
Tough discussion. Which is why it's probably better to just say they're all amazing and they all feel great to be mentioned in the same breath as one another. They're more than happy to recognize each others achievements.
Yeah Im with you on all of this. The eras of the GOAT candidates differ so much that its impossible not to have at least 3 or 4 players named as GOATS. I think the physicality of todays game is so different that playing to the finals of ALL the tournaments Martina and Chrissy played would not be possible today. It would take crazy luck and skill not to get injured.
I had a friend (German by the way) tell me today that Steffi had mud harder opponents and that Serena has had no competition. I think thats kind of silly because after Monica who did Steffi really have? Martina won her last slam in 1990. So lets say for the peak years of Graf she really only had Conchita, Arantxa, Monica, and Martina Hingis at the end. Serena has at least equaled that in being in the same era is Plus+ winners Justine, Kim C, Maria, and now Vika could likely go above 4-5. I just think its impossible to compare careers when you look at them as a whole.