2014 Roger's Cup Toronto

Front242

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Was expecting him to bottle that game but fair play. Unexpected win for me at least given how he started set 3 I presumed it was typical Tsonga choking. Good to see him back playing well. Last game was poor but the aces helped.
 

Moose

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Yea, JW. Follow up the big win with a big win.
 

Kieran

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Good win for JWT, going by the score. He didn't have much to cheer about over the summer. I bet he's doing that dumbass boring dance now, is he?
 

Front242

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Tsonga did no silly dance but instead some Ali style punches. Much cooler.
 

Kieran

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That dance was boring. Rafa does something similar and it's old hat, though in fairness to Ralph, he's a pure winner, not a clown. But when in doubt, just doff your cap and leave.
 

Front242

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Ah so Tsonga is a clown now but Rafa isn't. Cool.
 

nehmeth

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Jo hasn't beaten Murray in over six (6) years. Hiring a French coach has its benefits. :snigger
 

Kieran

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Grigor dropped the first against Kevin Anderson. He's struggling so far in this event...
 

Riotbeard

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Kieran said:
Tsonga has always been a clown...

No dig at you kieran, but this reminds me of something that has been getting to me about boards discussion in general. You call Tsonga a clown, and we all regularly complain about people's brains as inadequate in a way very different from how we talk about people's bodies like Ferrer who are overall pretty strong mentally, but don't really have the game to break through to the top. (maybe I should start a new thread for this) But when we talk about tsonga (or replace him with any high level slight underachiever), we never give him the benefit of the doubt that he is doing the best with the tools he has. Maybe tsonga just isn't mentally strong enough or mature enough at his core, and it's not him clowning. The mental aspect is the most important thing and it seems like a somewhat natural gift (at least to be as mature as novak, rafa, roger, and murray in their twenties) to be that mentally strong. So my question is: is it really clowning or is tsonga's brain analogous to Ferrer's height? Do we have a double standard compared to people with mental set back compared to those with physical limits?
 

Riotbeard

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Oh and I agree. Rafa is not a clown, he is an OCD suck up ;)
 

Kieran

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Riotbeard said:
Kieran said:
Tsonga has always been a clown...

No dig at you kieran, but this reminds me of something that has been getting to me about boards discussion in general. You call Tsonga a clown, and we all regularly complain about people's brains as inadequate in a way very different from how we talk about people's bodies like Ferrer who are overall pretty strong mentally, but don't really have the game to break through to the top. (maybe I should start a new thread for this) But when we talk about tsonga (or replace him with any high level slight underachiever), we never give him the benefit of the doubt that he is doing the best with the tools he has. Maybe tsonga just isn't mentally strong enough or mature enough at his core, and it's not him clowning. The mental aspect is the most important thing and it seems like a somewhat natural gift (at least to be as mature as novak, rafa, roger, and murray in their twenties) to be that mentally strong. So my question is: is it really clowning or is tsonga's brain analogous to Ferrer's height? Do we have a double standard compared to people with mental set back compared to those with physical limits?

I think in calling him a "clown", it's just loose talk, but to me, there's something frivolous about Tsonga when the stakes are high. I kinda agree about mental toughness being a natural attribute but only to an extent. Bear in mind that Rafa was conditioned as much by Toni's disciplined regime, as he was by his own cussed qualities of stubbornness, and Nole crossed a threshold in 2011, where he refused to have any more Melzer-moments, like he did in Paris in 2010, and committed himself to sticking to it in big matches.

So it's a learned attitude as well. What's disappointing about Tsonga is just plainly that he could be so much more, but he hasn't learned that attitude. Sometimes he really annoys me, because when something is expected of him, he generally hides from it and loses. He's not so nasty and egregious as Monfils, who chucked the fifth against Murray in Paris, almost as an act of spite against himself, but even still, Tsonga has had his moments too, and when I see him grinning after defeats, I think, that should pain you, and it doesn't!

He's a player I named in that Who hurts you more? thread, because I think he could be so much more but he looks to me content being what he is. That's a virtue in real life, btw, but not in a tennis star...
 

Riotbeard

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Kieran said:
So it's a learned attitude as well. What's disappointing about Tsonga is just plainly that he could be so much more, but he hasn't learned that attitude. Sometimes he really annoys me, because when something is expected of him, he generally hides from it and loses. He's not so nasty and egregious as Monfils, who chucked the fifth against Murray in Paris, almost as an act of spite against himself, but even still, Tsonga has had his moments too, and when I see him grinning after defeats, I think, that should pain you, and it doesn't!

He's a player I named in that Who hurts you more? thread, because I think he could be so much more but he looks to me content being what he is. That's a virtue in real life, btw, but not in a tennis star...

I hear ya, and I wasn't trying to latch on to something at least no in a malicious way with the clown word. This further shows fan mentality I was thinking about. Once again not a dig (I am actually saying this for all those who may jump in), more a philosophical question about how we evaluate things like potential and skill.

While I agree that to some extent, the mental is learned, but so is tennis ability. There is certainly an interplay between training and natural ability that creates high level athletes. I just think we tend to rightly view, the physical portion as an interplay of factors, where as mental failure is more of a choice, as opposed to an expression of limitations. Perhaps, Tsonga works more on his mental game than anything else, but he still is where he is. I know that when I play tennis, I just can't for the life of me care when I lose. I don't view the world and especially athletics as competitive in that way. I tend to think in terms of competing against myself and previous performance, and if I lose, I lose, because the other person was better.
 

herios

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Grigor evens it out. Quite a battle going on here. Grigor is lucky KA is serving at only 38%.
 

Kieran

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That's a good point, "I know that when I play tennis, I just can't for the life of me care when I lose." I'm similar, funny enough. I enjoy sport, but competition stresses me too much to get fixated on. It comes in waves but I'm not a super-keen hunter of scalps. And I think in that sense, natural temperament helps, but it isn't the whole picture. Somebody who maybe naturally unflappable might be great in the clutch - or they maybe too laid back to care.

It could be that Tsonga is training harder at the mental side than anyone, but I never saw any signs that he's prepared himself mentally. You often see a guy step up at moments where he recognises his usual achilles heel, but with Tsonga, it's like he turns up already beaten when there's a truly great chance to do something big. He beat Federer in the QF of Paris, then didn't look like he was in the stadium against Ferrer in the semi. I realise that Ferrer is better suited to clay, but that didn't explain JW's complete inability to cope with the moment.

A lot of it could be fan mentality too. Look, we compete vicariously through these players, right? We get bragging rights when they win, and face the gloating of others when they lose. And yet, both sets of fans are sitting watching television, contributing absolutely zilch to the actual process. So as fans we have our preferences, and mine have always been for players like Rafa, Pete, no fuss, brutal in the clutch, no vanity. Bjorn Borg. These guys have superhuman abilities to focus down to the core when there's hot flames all around them. So I'm naturally disposed to dislike the Monfils sort of guy, who plays trick shots when he should be concentrating on closing out the set and getting ready for the next one...
 

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TennisFanatic7 said:
Absolutely horrendous, terrible loss after leading 3-0 in the decider, this isn't Nadal or Djokovic across the net either. Sickening, go and sort that head out Andy.

Hopefully Tsonga can go on and make the final or even win it.

I am fuming right now though, time to go out for some beers and forget about that.

I feel the same to be honest. Tsonga served huge today but Andy should never have let him back in that 3rd set. An inexplicable loss.

Roll on Cincy I guess.
 

Front242

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Lovely point by Dimitrov with that lob over Anderson at the end.
 

herios

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Grigor has a terrible game, is broken at love and now KA will serve for the match