18-year old Big Title Winners - Alcaraz is in Good Company

[Moxie]

Just curious, what makes you think Zverev still has it in him? He's been a crown prince far longer than Tsitsipas, who while I concede is a streaky player with technical deficiencies (poor return game, vulnerable BH)I just feel has more inner belief.

Many years ago, Ted Tinling, the departed Tennis designer,/guru once said of Martina N: "She goes from arrogance to panic with nothing in between," and dang if I don't think that applies to Zverev. For someone with such a solid base game, (good groundies, intimidating serve when on, good movement, etc,) he can look practically "deer in the headlights" in a match when it's not going his way.

Plus the serving yips that he has. Novak, Murray and Rafa all had relative serving issues throughout the early part of their careers, but non of them by age 25 (Zverev's birthday is 2 weeks away) were serving DF's like candy the way Zverev still does when he gets off track. I'm sorry but that's a big mental issue for someone with his game.

But you did just compare Zverev to Martina.

 

[Jelenafan]

But you did just compare Zverev to Martina.

What Tinling said about Martina N. was before she truly became Martina, the dominating World #1. . Mind you, she was among the best, but she struggled with consistency and the feeling about Martina N. was that it was puzzling that someone with all her gifts could crumble on court sometimes in a flash.

I think it applies actually more to Zverev, in that he can seem "intimidating" with his game flowing, and a set later or even a few games later he's lost and "intimidated" and can't seem to find his way back. Sometimes he almost looks cowed on court. Thus he goes from arrogance to panic.

 

[Moxie]

What Tinling said about Martina N. was before she truly became Martina, the dominating World #1. . Mind you, she was among the best, but she struggled with consistency and the feeling about Martina N. was that it was puzzling that someone with all her gifts could crumble on court sometimes in a flash.

I think it applies actually more to Zverev, in that he can seem "intimidating" with his game flowing, and a set later or even a few games later he's lost and "intimidated" and can't seem to find his way back. Sometimes he almost looks cowed on court. Thus he goes from arrogance to panic.

I was kind of just giving you a hard time. I'd in no way compare Zverev to Martina at this point, nor, I'm sure would you. You're trying to figure out what's going on with him. As are we all. Not sure where the control issues start/end...serve? anger? but he's got a lot to work out, and I don't see the ship righting that soon.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Brother Kieran made a great point about now that Alcaraz has won a BIG title in his career, I am wondering how it will affect the other young players (FAA, Sinner, Musetti and etc..) expectations and preparations.

Here's my opinion at least with one of my favorite players: Jannik Sinner. I think he will still do his learning progress in his own way and not rush the journey even if he watched Alcaraz win Miami Open. Yes, he will still want to be a great player and become number 1 player in the world, but he will take his own time. I sensed it when I watched him practice in person right after he played an official match at IW. His whole demeanor did not changed in both in match and in practice. In a way, he will be like a Medvedev that he will slowly but surely will win bigger titles, step by step. Let's just hope his body will cooperate with his determination to become a great tennis player.

As for FAA, while he has made strides in the last couple of months (3 straight Slam QFs and 1st career ATP Title), his consecutive losses at both IW and Miami have made me "cautious" about his future at least for now.

In regards to Sinner,who is also one of my favorite players,I feel players,especially younger players develop at their own pace,this includes Sinner,who I also feel will take his own time.

 

[Jelenafan]

I was kind of just giving you a hard time. I'd in no way compare Zverev to Martina at this point, nor, I'm sure would you. You're trying to figure out what's going on with him. As are we all. Not sure where the control issues start/end...serve? anger? but he's got a lot to work out, and I don't see the ship righting that soon.

There is no way I'm going to say Tsistipas is a "better" player than Zverev. Zverev also has by far the better tournament results. The good and bad news about Stefano is that he's a "streaky" player who can lose to Players XYZ but also beat player ABC.

That "streakiness" has allowed him to beat Federer and Rafa on the biggest stages, the Majors, at the AO. He came within a whisker of beating Djokovic in last year's FO finals (after losing again in 5 the previous year in the SF) so I think Stefano has more belief in what i consider, again the biggest stages, the 4 Majors.

In contrast, Zverev has never beaten a top 10 player in a Major in his entire career, which is bit mindboggling.

 

[El Dude]

Just curious, what makes you think Zverev still has it in him? He's been a crown prince far longer than Tsitsipas, who while I concede is a streaky player with technical deficiencies (poor return game, vulnerable BH)I just feel has more inner belief.

Many years ago, Ted Tinling, the departed Tennis designer,/guru once said of Martina N: "She goes from arrogance to panic with nothing in between," and dang if I don't think that applies to Zverev. For someone with such a solid base game, (good groundies, intimidating serve when on, good movement, etc,) he can look practically "deer in the headlights" in a match when it's not going his way.

Plus the serving yips that he has. Novak, Murray and Rafa all had relative serving issues throughout the early part of their careers, but non of them by age 25 (Zverev's birthday is 2 weeks away) were serving DF's like candy the way Zverev still does when he gets off track. I'm sorry but that's a big mental issue for someone with his game.

Mostly because Zverev has been more consistent, won a lot more titles and big titles, and has won a big title more recently - just five months ago, while Stefanos has been about a year. I think Sissypuss has a better all around game, but his mental approach is even worse than Sascha's.

 

[Kieran]

Hey Kieran. I was thinking something similar, or rather that it might inspire the other young guys, in particular Sinner and FAA.

Tsitsipas seems a lost cause, at least as far as being a multi-Slam winner, and I wouldn't be surprised if he never wins a single Slam - although clearly it is too soon to write him totally off. But he's kind of slipped behind the Medvedev-Zverev duo to be more with Rublev, Berritini, Ruud, Hurkacz...darkhorses, but not favorites.

I’ve written Tsitsipas off. I wrote Zverev off when he was still a thing. Not enough brains in that chap. Not enough balls and not enough heart. The science is against him.

Felix seems to have the right mindset and calmness on court to succeed at the top level. I wonder what happened to him in IW and Miami? I didn’t hear about his matches. He suddenly had a target on his back, did this affect him? I begs the obvious question now for Carlos - so much is expected of him on clay. He’s even better on clay than hard. He’ll face tremendous expectations. It’s the next stage of youthful development, to see how he handles it…

 

[Kieran]

Mostly because Zverev has been more consistent, won a lot more titles and big titles, and has won a big title more recently - just five months ago, while Stefanos has been about a year. I think Sissypuss has a better all around game, but his mental approach is even worse than Sascha's.

Sissypuss

His name was begging to find its rightful home. I think he’s immature and entitled. Emotionally weak, which isn’t a criticism necessarily, because these things are relative and he’s out there trying. He’s very trying, actually. Someday he’ll bin the emotional detritus and the father, and get on with things without distraction…

 

[Kieran]

Hey all. I've been somewhat turned off by tennis since "Djokogate" at the AO, but with Alcaraz's victory it is hard not to be a bit excited by the emergence of a young superstar.

I thought I'd share this:

Players Who Won First Big Title At Age 18 or Younger
17y, 3m - Michael Chang - 1989 Roland Garros
17y, 7m - Boris Becker - 1985 Wimbledon
17y, 8m - Boris Becker - 1985 Cincinnati Masters
17y, 9m - Mats Wilander - 1982 Roland Garros
17y, 11m - Bjorn Borg - 1974 Rome Masters
17y, 11m - Bjorn Borg - 1974 Roland Garros
18y, 2m - Bjorn Borg - 1974 Boston Masters
18y, 5m - Michael Chang - 1990 Canada Masters
18y, 7m - Mats Wilander - 1983 Monte Carlo Masters
18y, 7m - Boris Becker - 1986 Wimbledon
18y, 8m - Boris Becker - 1986 Canada Masters
18y, 10m - Rafael Nadal - 2005 Monte Carlo Masters
18y, 10m - Carlos Alcaraz - 2022 Miami Masters
18y, 10m - Rafael Nadal - 2005 Rome Masters
18y, 11m - Rafael Nadal - 2005 Roland Garros
18y, 11m - Bjorn Borg - 1975 Roland Garros
18y, 11m - Mats Wilander - 1983 CIncinnati Masters

So it has been done 17 times by 6 players: Chang x2, Becker x4, Borg x4, Nadal x3, Wilander x3, Alcaraz x1.

Alcaraz turns 19 on May 5, so will have one more chance at a Masters to add to his tally (Monte-Carlo), but turns 19 at the Madrid Open and will be 19 when Roland Garros rolls around.

Still, that's very impressive company: One GOAT contender, three all-time greats, and Chang, who was very good but not an ATG.

The point being, 18-year olds who win big titles tend to become all-time greats. All of a sudden Alcaraz has jumped to the top of the queue of the "next dominant player," ahead of Sinner, Auger-Aliassime, and the rest.

I think the conclusion you make here is very difficult to argue against. The trend is too obvious to deny. Watching the way Alcaraz rebounded from 0-3 in the final, asserting himself like fully grown adult, if you get me, suggests that all of these gifted teenagers have an emotional maturity that’s beyond their years, and they trust themselves in a tight spot.

It always amazes me to see such composure and ability in ones so young. Their formative years are crucial - while also being necessarily brief - and they must have some stability behind them, in their coaching staff, families etc. Yet against this, we know that Borg and Becker eventually displayed a stunted emotional growth, that came back to haunt them in different ways, that hindered them in their normal, non-tennis lives. This has happened in the WTA as well. It’s almost bound to happen to some of them. I just hope Carlos has all the benefits of the best of modern management…

 

[El Dude]

@Kieran .

Don't know what happened with FAA, but not too worried. WInning that first title was huge and should help him take it to the next level.

Sissypuss...he's just so unlikeable, isn't he? But in terms of writing him and Zverev off, I agree if we're talking about the next dominant player(s)...but that's been clear for awhile. But in terms of winning more big titles, even a Slam or two? I think it is possible.

Alcaraz....yeah, the pressure is on. You almost hope he's too young and stupid to realize how rarified the air is he's finding himself in. No one tell him that he's the same age Nadal was in 2005, when he utterly dominated clay season, and in the process destroyed the feeble mind of Guillermo Coria.

But regardless of how good he ultimately becomes, it sure is exciting to see a young guy reach such heights. I mean, it is very unlikely that he's another Nadal - but even if he's "only" another Becker, that's better than any new player has been since Novak.

But I think you get to stuff that we don't talk about - the mental and developmental sacrifices it takes to become a top player. I look at someone like Nick Kyrgios, who it seems faced a choice of being either a top player but changing his personality, or being himself and being good but not great. Obviously he chose (whether consciously or not) the latter.

 

[Moxie]

^ Great post. As to Alcaraz, I think there really is something about being "young and stupid," (taken in the way you mean it.) I honestly think that that was got Nadal through the 2005 clay season, and a few years beyond. You play and you win, because you're that good, and the consequences be damned, because they are a long way down the road. Alcaraz does have a road-map (in Nadal,) but I think he and his team can ignore that and let him play with youth and abandon, because he should. Pressures and weight-of-expectation are for later.

As to Kyrgios, I think he has consciously chosen a path of enjoying his tennis and not worrying about big trophies. He'll make the money and enjoy the tennis as long as he can stand it, and it can stand him. Personally, I still like him.

Tsitsipas and Zverev: I agree with you that they shouldn't be written off entirely. Though, I'd separate them in that I still have hopes for the Greek. I don't think he's as unlikeable as some around here, but Zverev I can't really take anymore, and his lack of effort in the Shapavolov match at the AO this year was both shocking and appalling. Plus, as I think you said, but someone did, Tsitsipas's game has more upside. I have more hopes for him than the German, and a Major is not out of the question.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

^ Great post. As to Alcaraz, I think there really is something about being "young and stupid," (taken in the way you mean it.) I honestly think that that was got Nadal through the 2005 clay season, and a few years beyond. You play and you win, because you're that good, and the consequences be damned, because they are a long way down the road. Alcaraz does have a road-map (in Nadal,) but I think he and his team can ignore that and let him play with youth and abandon, because he should. Pressures and weight-of-expectation are for later.

As to Kyrgios, I think he has consciously chosen a path of enjoying his tennis and not worrying about big trophies. He'll make the money and enjoy the tennis as long as he can stand it, and it can stand him. Personally, I still like him.

Tsitsipas and Zverev: I agree with you that they shouldn't be written off entirely. Though, I'd separate them in that I still have hopes for the Greek. I don't think he's as unlikeable as some around here, but Zverev I can't really take anymore, and his lack of effort in the Shapavolov match at the AO this year was both shocking and appalling. Plus, as I think you said, but someone did, Tsitsipas's game has more upside. I have more hopes for him than the German, and a Major is not out of the question.

I have to agree with you and El Dude,Tsitsipas has more upside to his overall game than Zverev.Personally I feel Tsitsipas is immature,I know he has a new coach added to his team,Enqvist ,I wish he would cut ties with his dad,who really has not taken his game say to another level,to me this is what is needed if he is to win a GS title.I am not a fan of Zverev,at GS level he has yet to defeat a Top 10 player? I mean he had CH points in the GS final against Dominic and should have defeated him in 3 sets, at the USO, mentally he went walkabout when it was needed.Zverev's lack of effort against Shapo at this year's AO, was just woeful for a 'so called' Top player.
Nick K is his own person and will continue to play tournaments that interests him,Nick K has never been worried what players or the media think of him,I will say of Nick K he does a lot of work off court,in Canberra where he lives,with young people and also homeless people.

 

[El Dude]

I'm very fond of Kyrgios - I mean, he's entertaining and walks to his own drumbeat.

As for Sissypuss, he's got a more effortless quality on the court than Zverev, who has that pained-and-strained vibe of a Berdych. I also feel like Zverev is more predictable, whereas Tsitispas (OK, I'll spell his name right) is capable of inspired play. I don't know, maybe he needs to do ayahuasca with Novak and face his demons and he'll be really good.

 

[rafanoy1992]

I just want to add something here: The biggest obstacle that is facing Tsitsipas is whether or not he can actually fire his dad as a coach. I watched some of his matches I have noticed that on pivotal moments, he loses clarity on what he needs to do in those moments. There are times where he over cooks a shot (too aggressive) and there are times in which he becomes passive. I agree with both @Moxie and @MargaretMcAleer that when Tsitsipas has a clear mind and clarity on his tennis, he definitely has more upside than Zverev.

And the only way he can get some clarity during those pivotal moments again, in my opinion, is to fire his dad as a coach. Because right now, he does not have any clarity in his game because he has two coaches that tells him what to do. In reality, there should be only one coach that he should listen to for tennis advice, it should not be his dad.

I am hoping Tsitsipas can get back in track during the Clay season, because if not, it will be A LONG season for him at least mentally.

 

[don_fabio]

Alcaraz is the best thing that happened to tennis since Federer came, then Nadal, then Novak and then Wawrinka who played unbelievable those 3 slams he won. We should cherrish this moment in time and hope more guys will come and others will step up and make things interesting for the next decade or 2. I hope Alcaraz and few others will push each other to the limits and that tennis will not lose on popularity, but in fact will become even more popular and interesting to watch.

I guess we are all worried what happens to tennis when big 3 are all retired and then you see a kid like Alcaraz and you say yes, this is what we need, give me a few more of these (or at least one more) and I'll be happy to sit 5 hours to watch a tennis match anytime.

 

[tented]

And the only way he can get some clarity during those pivotal moments again, in my opinion, is to fire his dad as a coach. Because right now, he does not have any clarity in his game because he has two coaches that tells him what to do. In reality, there should be only one coach that he should listen to for tennis advice, it should not be his dad.

Well said. It’s so rare that a relative as a coach works out in the long term for a multiple major-winning champion. The Rafa/Toni example was essentially unique, especially with the Uncle factor. How many examples of a parent being the coach has worked long term for a Hall of Fame-level champion? Richard Williams had the good sense to realize he needed to let Venus and Serena go and find other coaches, for example. Marion Bartoli and her father … well, I’m not sure what to say about them. They were like watching an out of control psychological experiment. Donald Young has never shaken off his mother, and the results speak for themselves. If I’m forgetting another truly successful parent/child team, please remind me.

 

[Kieran]

Well said. It’s so rare that a relative as a coach works out in the long term for a multiple major-winning champion. The Rafa/Toni example was essentially unique, especially with the Uncle factor. How many examples of a parent being the coach has worked long term for a Hall of Fame-level champion? Richard Williams had the good sense to realize he needed to let Venus and Serena go and find other coaches, for example. Marion Bartoli and her father … well, I’m not sure what to say about them. They were like watching an out of control psychological experiment. Donald Young has never shaken off his mother, and the results speak for themselves. If I’m forgetting another truly successful parent/child team, please remind me.

Jimmy Connors and his mother spring to mind, which always reminded me of James Cagney in White Heat, if that isn’t being too kind to Jimmy Connors and his ma…